Ignition solenoid sanity check

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Ignition solenoid sanity check

January 19, 2023, 09:16:59 pm

Sorry if it was discussed before, but I would like to double confirm my replacement ignition solenoid is correct. If I mess it up, it is going to cause a lot of damage.

I was plagued by the starting issue. I have to cycle the key back and forth many times to get the instrument panel light up. Each time I can here the solenoid clicking, but the instrument panel does not light up. I thought it was the battery issue. I have replaced my battery and power converter charger, the 12V should be pretty solid now. I still have this issue. After reading many posts on the forum, I think the ignition solenoid is bad.

Per recommendation on the forum, I bought the Cole Hersee 24213 12V 200A Continuous Solenoid
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71B+lIORWtL._AC_SL1308_.jpg

But this one has two small post, the old one has just one. Old one, the green ground wire is connected to the body of the solenoid. According to my reading, the new one with two small post, I should connect my ground wire to one of the small post and switch positive to the other small post. Is it correct?

New and old solenoid comparison. Cole Herse has much shorter big lug. Very hard to fit all the cable terminals.

New Solenoid installed. Green ground wire on small post, is it correct?

Also, according to the document, the side with Cole Hersee stamp should face downward. But the harness under the dash won't allow me to do that.

Quote

Continuous Duty Solenoid SPST 12V 200A
4 stud, Insulated stud earth
SPST Normally open (one circuit) OFF/ON
Copper Stud terminals 5/16â€³-24
Insulated Coil terminals 10-32
Plated steel housing, nuts & washers Inc.
Mounting holes 8mm x 15mm, 56mm CTC
Mount with brand cap facing DOWN

I haven't hook battery back yet. I would like to get confirmation before hook the battery back. Really don't want to see spark or smoke come out under the dash

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Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #1 – January 19, 2023, 09:48:40 pm

You are correct on your wire connections.

Not sure why you can not install with the label down. I am going to guess that the bracket being different is bottoming the new one out. For them to specify this, there has to be a reason. I am guessing they are wanting gravity to help open the solenoid when power is released. Maybe make an adapter to mount to the solenoid and to the bracket.

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #2 – January 19, 2023, 09:51:35 pm

Yes power goes to one of the small posts and the ground to the other post. It should be fine to
have the solenoid on is side and it should be able able to work upside down.

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #3 – January 20, 2023, 07:34:05 am

Quote from: Running Odometer – January 19, 2023, 09:16:59 pm

Sorry if it was discussed before, but I would like to double confirm my replacement ignition solenoid is correct. If I mess it up, it is going to cause a lot of damage.

I was plagued by the starting issue. I have to cycle the key back and forth many times to get the instrument panel light up. Each time I can here the solenoid clicking, but the instrument panel does not light up. I thought it was the battery issue. I have replaced my battery and power converter charger, the 12V should be pretty solid now. I still have this issue. After reading many posts on the forum, I think the ignition solenoid is bad.

Per recommendation on the forum, I bought the Cole Hersee 24213 12V 200A Continuous Solenoid
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71B+lIORWtL._AC_SL1308_.jpg

But this one has two small post, the old one has just one. Old one, the green ground wire is connected to the body of the solenoid. According to my reading, the new one with two small post, I should connect my ground wire to one of the small post and switch positive to the other small post. Is it correct?

New and old solenoid comparison. Cole Herse has much shorter big lug. Very hard to fit all the cable terminals.

New Solenoid installed. Green ground wire on small post, is it correct?

Also, according to the document, the side with Cole Hersee stamp should face downward. But the harness under the dash won't allow me to do that.
I haven't hook battery back yet. I would like to get confirmation before hook the battery back. Really don't want to see spark or smoke come out under the dash ;D

For belt and suspenders peace of mind, first I ask if you paid the extra dosh for a Continuous Duty solenoid and didn't cheap out for the Intermittent Duty model.

Second, take a multi meter and probe the terminals so that you can see where the electricity flows. There are two arrangements for those four terminals. One is that power goes in one of the small terminals and comes out the other i.e. power and ground. The second is that one small terminal is grounded through the solenoid's coil to the case and the other small terminal is connected to the output terminal when the contacts are closed by the operating solenoid. Why? To provide full battery voltage to the ignition coil on a spark ignition engine for starting.

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Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #4 – January 20, 2023, 08:44:37 am

Quote from: turbojack – January 19, 2023, 09:48:40 pm

For them to specify this,

Mount with brand cap facing DOWN

there has to be a reason. I am guessing they are wanting gravity to help open the solenoid when power is released.

I agree with Jack - there must be a reason for this admonition. This has me wondering what these solenoids look like inside. Has any member dissected a dead solenoid? I have always kinda assumed that the inside moving component (plunger) was spring-loaded to return to the "resting" position when activation power was removed. Is it possible that the coil design depends on gravity to move the plunger to the open position? The document below may shed some light. I added the yellow highlight for emphasis.

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #5 – January 20, 2023, 09:20:33 am

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – January 20, 2023, 08:44:37 am

Is it possible that the coil design depends on gravity to move the plunger to the open position? The document below may shed some light. I added the yellow highlight for emphasis.

Going all pedantic here, the solenoid is actually the iron slug that gets pulled into the coil.
The highlighted area also could have stated that an intermittent magnetic relay has a single coil while a continuous duty magnetic relay has two coils: one is coarse wire and draws high current to pull in the solenoid, and the second is fine wire to supply a weaker magnetic field while also drawing correspondingly less current. There's a second set of contacts to switch power from one coil to the other.

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #6 – January 20, 2023, 10:17:41 am

Quote from: Old Toolmaker – January 20, 2023, 09:20:33 am

Going all pedantic here, the solenoid is actually the iron slug that gets pulled into the coil.

Responding (in a friendly way) to your pendanticism, I must point out that I employed (in my comment) the exact same terminology found in the aforementioned document.
IE, "The diagram shows a magnetic coil surrounding a contact plunger."

Also, see Solenoid - Wikipedia

AND (further clarification) Solenoid - Wikipedia(engineering)

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #7 – January 20, 2023, 11:49:26 am

The answer for orientation, from Cole Hersee's answer

Continuous Duty Solenoids should be mounted in an area that has ventilation, as the coil circuit normally generates heat. Our research shows that it might be best to mount the Solenoid dimpled end down. Electromechanical Switches can over time build up deposits due to arcing. By orienting your Solenoid as recommended, deposits will have a tendency to fall to the bottom, clear of the contacts, thus prolonging the life of the Solenoid.

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #8 – January 20, 2023, 12:47:58 pm

Quote from: craneman – January 20, 2023, 11:49:26 am

...it might be best to mount the Solenoid dimpled end down.

Now I'm unclear as to which end is the "dimpled end".
Is that the end that has the crimped-on cover (with the Cole Hersee name stamp) or is it the other end with the model number printed in ink? (see FindItParts ad linked below)
For dummies like me, they need to print a big arrow on the solenoid body with the words THIS END UP.

Guess I'll have to get up out of my chair and go outside, pull one of my spare solenoids out of the coach parts drawer, and actually look at it. SIGH.......

24213-BX by COLE HERSEE - Continuous Duty Solenoid - 12V, 200A, 4 Stud

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #9 – January 20, 2023, 12:57:07 pm

They are normally mounted dimple end up.

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #10 – January 20, 2023, 01:02:37 pm

Quote from: oldguy – January 20, 2023, 12:57:07 pm

They are normally mounted dimple end up.

Which is exactly the opposite of what Chuck's (craneman) quote (Reply #7) says...

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #11 – January 20, 2023, 01:10:19 pm

I got the quote from this website and here is the full paragraph. Cole Hersee is now a Little Fuse Brand. An old saying that "just because something is always done doesn't make it right" might apply here. All the solenoids on my electric crane are mounted dimpled end up. I wonder if they would have lasted longer mounted down.

https://www.littelfuse.com/technical-resources/technical-centers/commercial-vehicle-technical-center/frequently-asked-questions.aspx#question_38

Are there any special mounting instructions for Solenoids?

Electromechanical Solenoids should be mounted on a non-vibrating surface such as a fender well or firewall. They should not be mounted on a surface that vibrates such as an engine, as this may reduce the lifetime of the component.

Continuous Duty Solenoids should be mounted in an area that has ventilation, as the coil circuit normally generates heat. Our research shows that it might be best to mount the Solenoid dimpled end down. Electromechanical Switches can over time build up deposits due to arcing. By orienting your Solenoid as recommended, deposits will have a tendency to fall to the bottom, clear of the contacts, thus prolonging the life of the Solenoid.

Electronic Solenoids such as 48785 are much more rugged, because they have no moving parts. They also will stand up to an incredible one million On-Off cycles!

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #12 – January 20, 2023, 02:31:33 pm

Which end is the dimple end?

I searched YouTube with cole hersee 24213 keywords. I found few videos about replacing this solenoid. Almost all of them has the end with "cole hersee" facing up when the factory installed one is taken off.

If this is the wrong way to install, how can all factories install the solenoid using the wrong way?

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #13 – January 20, 2023, 02:37:15 pm

If looking for an "expert" on how to mount the ignition solenoid, I would certainly take the advice of the solenoid manufacturer over that of the guy on the line who installed it.

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #14 – January 20, 2023, 03:51:59 pm

Quote from: Running Odometer – January 20, 2023, 02:31:33 pm

Which end is the dimple end?

That is also my question. What does "dimple" mean (in this context)?

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #15 – January 20, 2023, 04:34:22 pm

If they want the contacts at the top then there must be a dimple on the bottom, the way we have always seen them mounted

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #16 – January 20, 2023, 05:28:33 pm

Quote from: craneman – January 20, 2023, 01:10:19 pm

Electronic Solenoids such as 48785 are much more rugged, because they have no moving parts. They also will stand up to an incredible one million On-Off cycles!

Yeah. But. Silicon Controlled Rectifiers don't play well when subjected to over-current tending to fail permanently on. They can also blow open, but there are some applications I prefer to err on the safer side.

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #17 – January 20, 2023, 08:39:13 pm

Great news! After carefully verify the connections to the solenoid, I reconnected the battery. Luckily there is no spark or smoke come out from the windows.

I was able to turn on the instrument panel on first key turn. No needs to turn key back and forth multiple times. The light seems brighter. The check trans light on the shift pad didn't show up anymore. I guess the old solenoid caused quite a lot voltage drop.

There are few times when I turn on the turn lights or head lights the engine stopped. That is probably caused by the failed solenoid too.

I am still not sure which end is the "dimpled" end. I guess I can live with it since so many factories install their solenoids like that.

Thanks for your help!

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #18 – January 21, 2023, 08:06:55 am

And, for those willing to spend a little more $$, here is a permanent solution for the ignition solenoid from Bluesea. The specs are quite impressive. Have never heard of a failure.

Been there, done that.

Solenoid L-Series - 250A 12/24V - Blue Sea Systems

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #19 – January 21, 2023, 09:05:59 am

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – January 20, 2023, 10:17:41 am

Responding (in a friendly way) to your pendanticism, I must point out that I employed (in my comment) the exact same terminology found in the aforementioned document.
IE, "The diagram shows a magnetic coil surrounding a contact plunger."

Also, see Solenoid - Wikipedia

AND (further clarification) Solenoid - Wikipedia(engineering)

I'm still riding my donkey toward the sunset proudly holding my lance up high as I continue to fight the good fight, doing my best to halt the drift of language.

Yes starter relays have coil springs to open the contacts.
But the dimpled end is where the solenoid can be made to stick through the case to provide manual operation. For those times when you want to turn the engine during service operations. I mount them with the coil down because a good bump can force the contacts closed momentarily. BTDT.

And yes, magnetic fields are use to steer beams of electrons, solenoids don't work because they break the glass envelope and they miss too many electrons because they're not fast enough.

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #20 – January 21, 2023, 09:42:29 am

I bought the BlueSea version mentioned above. It shows two posts (for the main connections of input/output) but not the smaller posts for "signal?" Wires? I also see mention of installing a manual on-off switch. Is there a serious reconfiguration required to use this bs. The OEM Cole Hersee?

Sorry for the dumb question but if it's not easily plug and play I probably shouldn't wait to install the high priced unit.

Thanks.

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #21 – January 21, 2023, 10:02:08 am

There is one of the Blue Sea solenoids sitting in a drawer that came with the coach that the
previous owner bought.

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #22 – January 21, 2023, 10:09:30 am

Quote from: Alan & Gerri Ortiz – January 21, 2023, 09:42:29 am

I bought the BlueSea version mentioned above. It shows two posts (for the main connections of input/output) but not the smaller posts for "signal?" Wires? I also see mention of installing a manual on-off switch. Is there a serious reconfiguration required to use this bs. The OEM Cole Hersee?

Sorry for the dumb question but if it's not easily plug and play I probably shouldn't wait to install the high priced unit.

Thanks.

The signals are from the small red/black wires (see picture on Bluesea's website). No difference in how it is wired up:

Two large lugs, positive and ground for signal.

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #23 – January 21, 2023, 11:01:05 am

Quote from: Alan & Gerri Ortiz – January 21, 2023, 09:42:29 am

I bought the BlueSea version mentioned above. It shows two posts (for the main connections of input/output) but not the smaller posts for "signal?" Wires?

Like Brett says, the two small wires are for the "signal". RED for 12V signal coming from ignition switch, and black for ground.

I installed the Blue Sea solenoid back in 2014. It has functioned perfectly since then. One thing I found was that the big posts (for battery IN and OUT) were just barely long enough to accept all of the wire connectors. I got everything on the posts, and they are securely fastened, but there's no room for anything else. The number of wires that need to go on these posts may vary on different coach year models, so this comment might not apply to all installations.

I did make a small modification to the "signal" wiring hookup. Instead of connecting the RED and BLACK solenoid wires directly to the appropriate wires, I ran them down to the solenoid mounting bolts. These mounting bolts screw into a plywood panel, so they are totally insulated from chassis ground. On my coach, when I removed the old OEM Cole Hersee solenoid, I found there were several different wires connected to both of the small "signal" terminals. I put all of these miscellaneous wires under the mounting bolt heads along with the solenoid RED and BLACK wires, thereby replicating the wiring setup on the old Cole Hersee solenoid.

I know, it sounds complicated, but its really pretty simple. If your coach only has one wire on the "signal" terminal(s) on the old solenoid, then you can ignore my modification because it won't be of any value.

See the photos below to hopefully clarify my comments.

Re: Ignition solenoid sanity check

Reply #24 – January 21, 2023, 11:29:30 am

Wouldn't this blue sea latching relay be even better?
This come up on Amazon while searching the model @wolfe10 recommended.

Blue Sea Systems High Amperage Solenoids Amazon.com: Blue Sea Systems 7700 SOLENOID ML 12V RBS : Industrial & Scientific

500A continuous
Latching so no heat generated by the coil.

I can see have a dedicated button says Engine Start/Stop, then use the key just to start the engine.

It is also going to be a perfect replacement for the booster solenoid.

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