Air Bags

Topic: Air Bags (Read 1229 times) previous topic - next topic

Air Bags

January 23, 2023, 08:20:59 am

I know this has been a topic multiple times but I have one quetion. I have a mechanic coming to do my air bags. He mentioned taking the tires off and that is how he would gain access to them. He may not be totally familiar with Foretravel. If he took the tires off is that a better way than just putting my 11 inch jack stands in place and doing it that way? I would assume that you can't do both;
use the jack stands and take the tire off.

Thanks

Re: Air Bags

Reply #1 – January 23, 2023, 09:30:26 am

Do you mean your axle supports when you say jack stands? Those used between the axle and the frame? My opinion, you will want jack stands or jacks under the axles and the wheels removed. Some people have success with removing the fenders. I tried to remove a fender, and between the difficulty and harming the body paint, I retreated and removed the wheels.

Using the axle supports at one position and jacking the RV on one wheel would be OK. Using the supports on all of the wheels would bind the frame when you lift the RV to remove the wheel.

Re: Air Bags

Reply #2 – January 23, 2023, 09:43:12 am

I used the jack stands and also I blocked the coach. Probably just blocking the coach would be
sufficient.

Re: Air Bags

Reply #3 – January 23, 2023, 09:59:24 am

If you are blocking the axel you still need the jack stands. I did the air bags with the wheels off
and for me that is the easiest.

Re: Air Bags

Reply #4 – January 23, 2023, 10:32:49 am

Yes you want to use your safety block to lock the coach as high as possible. Proper rated jack stands are a must. Removing the wheels is a must for me. Get with Elliot and rent the air bag tools I sold him. Makes it much easier. Also plan to perform brake pin inspection and cleaning when wheels are off. Removing the front docking lights will help air line removal and installation. The large nuts on the air lines is. A friction lock and removing the locking feature will make installation much. Easier. They. Are not subject to rotation so friction lock nuts are not necessary by industry standards
Custom air bags tools
Good information
Scott

Re: Air Bags

Reply #5 – January 23, 2023, 11:07:39 am

So just to make sure I have this right? I would lift the coach and just place the 2 safety stands (mine are a 4 by 4, 11in treated lumber) on the wheel we are working on (one in front of the tire and one in back between the frame and the axel. Then dump the air. Then jack that one tire up and place a jack stand under the axel. Then take the tire off and replace the air bag.

Thanks

Re: Air Bags

Reply #6 – January 23, 2023, 11:21:30 am

Quote from: 18360 – January 23, 2023, 11:07:39 am

So just to make sure I have this right? I would lift the coach and just place the 2 safety stands (mine are a 4 by 4, 11in treated lumber) on the wheel we are working on (one in front of the tire and one in back between the frame and the axel. Then dump the air. Then jack that one tire up and place a jack stand under the axel. Then take the tire off and replace the air bag.

Thanks

I would put 4 safety stands in (2 up front on each side of the coach). If you dump the air in the front with only one side blocked, you'll twist the coach and risk breaking your windshields. If you only dump air from the side you're working on, you still risk air leaking out of the opposing side's airbags once you start disconnecting lines, which will also result in the coach twisting.

Re: Air Bags

Reply #7 – January 23, 2023, 11:40:54 am

Working Safely around your Foretravel

Re: Air Bags

Reply #8 – January 23, 2023, 12:11:08 pm

I left the wheels fenders on, used a custom safety I made and then modified a wrench to fit the hidden nut found on a couple of bags. This was on a U300 GV. It goes fast but you need to be careful and use a wrench that grabs most of the brass fitting so it's not damaged in removal. It has to be in just the right position when replacing the air line so it threads easily. Scott made a super ratchet for the hard to get at nut. Good to buy new nuts as the bags don't come with them. I bought new stainless nuts and washers. I also used a couple of HF hydraulic/air jacks for the front with an adapter for the rear. I carry one in the compartment. See attached photos. I allowed the coach to twist but no glass problem. If you use 3/8" extensions to reach the bottom nuts on the bags, you can remove both nuts in a second with an impact, electric or air. I use a cordless to adjust the two safety tools several times as I'm raising the coach body. Make sure to have safety glasses on if lying on your back to remove the bottom nuts so no dirt gets in your eyes.

Pierce

Re: Air Bags

Reply #9 – January 23, 2023, 01:42:28 pm

Eight safety stands at least one jack stand and jack for me. Air bags are easy to compress. simply step on them then put your finger over air port to keep collapsed. Release to extend in position.
Scott

Re: Air Bags

Reply #10 – January 23, 2023, 02:11:13 pm

No need to compress the air bags to install if you use the air/hydraulic jack like I did. The wheels never come off the ground so no jack stand needed only the safety tools I made. In the 4th photo, you can see the full extended air bag in place with another two inches of clearance and in the 6th photo, the non-compressed air bag easily goes between the tire and the fender. I do like to leave the vinyl stud covers in place until I'm ready to put the nuts on to avoid dirt on the threads.

I did compress the first air bag that I installed but once I automated the installation, it was not necessary and saved the time and hassle.

To better explain, the unsprung part of the coach is not jacked, only the body and the hausgemacht safeties keep the two parts safely separated.

Nothing wrong with a piece of steel or hard wood for a safety but the body has to be all the way up before they can be installed. With my safety, it can be put in place with the coach down and then adjusted as the jack raises the body so no possibility of an accident.

Pierce

Re: Air Bags

Reply #11 – January 23, 2023, 03:34:12 pm

Good read for changing out air bags:

Air Bags - All Things Foretravel

Re: Air Bags

Reply #12 – January 23, 2023, 08:42:55 pm

Hi All,
1998 U295 Foretravel Rear Airbag Replacement
I thought this might help anyone who desires to take on the replacement of their air bags front and rear. Replacement of all 8 bags does not require removal of tires, fender skirts or the cutting of an access window in any of the bays as you may have read elsewhere. Other than being able to turn a nut and being somewhat of a contortionist, no special skills or tools are needed. There may be some disagreement to this statement when you get to the forward most bags though. All the airbag mounting bolts are somewhere around 35-50lbs, so strength is not required either. Numbered front to rear, 1 through 4 (left and right of course), the number 1 airbags are the hardest. That said, I started from the rear (#4), the easiest) and worked forward. Airbags 2, 3 and 4 (6 bags) take maybe an hour apiece to remove and install. The #1 bags (forward most) took me about 3 hours each.
-   Tools needed;
o   9/16 & 5/8 open wrenches for air lines.
o   5/8 stubby wrench for forward most airbags.
o   3/4 wrenches (stubby and ratcheting) for top hidden mounting nut.
o   3/4 socket (long (19") extension) for lower mounting nuts.
o   1-1/8 wrench / socket for airline mounting nut.
o   Large C Clamp for compressing the #3 airbags once mounting nuts are removed. Compressing of air bag is only required for the #3 airbags.
o   Small rubber plug for plugging the airbag air port.
-   Vehicle blocked in a 6inch "Charge" position. I stack 2 – 3x5x9inch oak blocks, front and rear (between chassis and frame). I'd recommend blocking the entire vehicle so you remain level, also your air system will be down. I use 16 oak blocks total.
-   Once blocked, evacuate your air system.
-   Loosen and remove the airline, elbow fitting and 1-1/8inch nut.
-   Loosen the 3/4inch nuts. I removed the lower first so I'd have some resistance on the upper hidden nut.
-   Remove airbag from mounting plates. Remove rear bags from the rear (battery or engine air filter compartments). Compress the front (#3) airbags, plug the air port (in order to hold the vacuum on the bag), remove the clamp and remove airbag from between top front of tire and fender skirt.
-   Remove plug for reuse.
-   Reverse process for installing new bags. Place a 2" block (2 sockets) under the airbags between the mounting plates to hold the bag up so the studs protrude the upper mounting plate. I installed the 3/4 inch hidden nut first then the 1-1/8 inch nut. Torque nuts at some point but before installing the elbow and airline.
-   Remove the supporting block/sockets or other jacking device used and pull the air bag down so that lower studs protrude the mounting plate.
-   The #3 airbags are the only ones that require compression.
-   This process works for all 8 bags HOWEVER the #1 bags require some additional steps more contortionizing and more patience because location of the airlines to these bags (in my opinion) was poorly designed. The airlines are hidden between the frame and the generator bulkhead (left) and entry steps (right). A right angle impact with a 1-1/8" socket would make this easier, mine didn't have enough torque.
-   Remove the front docking lights (left and right). I needed a flat tip screw driver and left mine hang until the bags were reinstalled. This access provided a little more ability to remove the airline from the elbow and a view but little more.
-   For the right #1 airbag, remove the right front shock.
o   Now the hardest part.....Wedge yourself between the inside of the tire and the frame. Turning the front tires might help but I chose to leave mine straight. Remove the air fitting (elbow) 5/8 inch wrenches (regular and stubby worked for me).
o   Now for the patience, removal the 1-1/8" nut. I could get between 1/4 and 1/3 of a turn using a ratchet.
o   When reinstalling, you might want to wait and install the shock until after you do an air leak check of the elbow and airline connection. Just in case you need to go back in and tighten these fittings.
-   For the left #1 airbag, leave the front shock in place. No additional room is gained from removing it. Instead, remove the front left drivers seat mounting nut and push the bolt up.
Gates #6ABC-4MP90 / GB08120-0604 is the P/N for the 1/4 inch pipe to compression airline elbows. If replacements are required. Purchase from NAPA $5.50 each.
Airbag W01-358-9448 Firestone airbag P/N. Purchased from Michigan Truck Spring $185.00 + tax each, free shipping and fast delivery (ordered Monday, received Wednesday MI to VA).

I replaced the air bags about 2 years ago, wrote the above but never posted it. I also have a couple of pictures but this being my first post and I'm heading off to bed and I'm not sure how to add pictures here. If needed Seven5sevenfive zeronine31double nickle - Jerry - leave a message, refer to forum post and I'll call you back just not right away as my work schedule is crazy.

These bags are not hard.

Re: Air Bags

Reply #13 – January 23, 2023, 08:55:11 pm

Quote from: Barry & Cindy – January 23, 2023, 03:34:12 pm

Good read for changing out air bags:

Note - most of this was content-scraped from the Yahoo Group and Foreforums without permission. Look at the names - these are all members' posts that were copied. Most of those photos belong to actual members and were copied from their posts, they aren't original content on that website.

Please folks, check Foreforums for the original content first!

Re: Air Bag

Reply #14 – January 24, 2023, 05:27:44 pm

Another way to do it,
85, not into that heavy wrenching any more, but a FYI lost an air bag (front left rear). Middle of no place Hill country Texas, Sunday morning. hot lineKeith Risch Keith advised cap (1/8 or 1/4 pipe cap)that air bag air line., should be able with the other to get u someplace for tomorrow, it did, we eventually creeped into Nacogdoches, MHT 200 or so miles. About 6pm

Mon. Am went to the office, Keith said bring it to shop Door 1. (Put 2 -3 guys on it). 3 pm we were on the road 8 new air bags, 2 best ones stored as spares. $3000. Lighter in our CK book. Doubt u could get that kind of service from any other "Dealer" that I have ever met. My prior coach Newman Dutch Star. Never got any thing fixed any where in the US. Except Napane Ind. Then that was 1100 miles, & a argument to get them to fix something else that broke on the trip up.

Keith left MHT, took his knowledge to Atkinson Body Repair in Nacogdoches 936/ 569/ 2966

Brought this back, edit. Some will say u only need to RR the 2 from the failed side?
My and my previous owner, any thing not correct RR the pkg . Example, he had problems with the low hours OEM Gen, he replaced it, with a Onan that is dead quiet. Etc. I also believe in the same, as Keith's crew found 2 newer air bags, we assumed during the maintenance records 1 owner did not keep records, the 1st, 3rd & we have followed keeping records. My kids claim to be fighting over this unit, as our time with it is short. IF They really want it as part of inheritance? Otherwise in the future some one will get a jewel of u don't need slides.

Re: Air Bags

Reply #15 – January 24, 2023, 06:10:45 pm

Rick, there are a few ways to do the bags. I did all 8 bags a couple of months ago. I didn't jack up the coach or remove the wheels. I removed the fenders. If you do it carefully and do not bend the trim pieces, they come off fairly easy and go back on easy. However, as others have noted, if you have body paint, it may chip or crack. In my case, it wasn't an issue.

With the fenders off, it's pretty straight forward with standard tools, but it is tight on the front passengers side.

I would have tried Elliott's tools, but I was pressed for time and he was away from home. With his tools, it may be easier and you won't have to remove the fenders.

Re: Air Bags

Reply #16 – January 24, 2023, 06:36:33 pm

This job is like what? $3500-$4000 if you have MOT do it? So you save a couple coach bucks by doing it yourself. All of us can afford that, we own Foretravels after all. The only reason you take this job on is because the inconvenience/effort is worth a couple coach bucks. Having now changed 10 airbags (yes, you read that right, and I don't have a tag axle) as well as all 8 shocks, I can tell you that this job kinda sucks even if you do pull the fenders or tires. If you don't? And don't have my tools? It's going to REALLY suck and isn't worth the money you save doing it yourself.

IMO - pull the fenders/remove a tire or pay someone else to do it. If you choose to do the prior, you STILL want the specialty tools that Scott made. They will make it considerably quicker and easier even if you pull the fenders.

Or go ahead and try it the hard way; heaven only knows I've blazed that path a mile wide by now.

Re: Air Bags

Reply #17 – January 24, 2023, 07:46:51 pm

I have not done business with MOT or FOT, so I am not speaking about them.

The air bags are nasty work. The fuel lines are nasty work. Most of it is nasty work. I am pretty cheap, so there is that. But my main motivation is that the work is done right. I have read so many stories about shops doing it wrong, skipping steps, breaking other stuff, flat-out lying.

I can't imagine most shops taking the time to research installation of Furrion ACs on a FT. We know that some shops won't even research the right type of hose to use for diesel fuel line replacement.

I respect Elliott and his opinions. But I suspect there are others around here that choose to do the work themselves, not for the cost, but for the pride of accomplishment, and the reassurance that the job is done properly.

Re: Air Bags

Reply #18 – January 24, 2023, 10:08:57 pm

If you have studied other member's bag installations, it's just not hard if you don't reinvent the wheel. With your ducks in a row with the right tools, it's fun. With Scotts aluminum tool for the air fitting and a ratchet or tool for the hard to get at nut. it can be done with 15 minutes on each bag. Using Liquid Wrench on the nuts the day before makes it easier. Salt environment coaches are always much harder to work on for almost any part. The cheap price of the coach going in comes around many times. If you have to use a Sawzall on the studs. The coach better had been cheap and you best be a DIYer.

Pierce

Re: Air Bags

Reply #19 – January 25, 2023, 05:25:14 am

If you compare apples to apples, it really makes a difference with the "Year and Model" coach you are working on. Speaking only about a 1994 U300 Unicoach, they were quite easy to replace. I fully inflated the old bags and inserted eight safety stands, one front and one rear of each air bag. Then I deflated the system. I left the tires and fenders in place, I did not need any extra room to remove or replace the air bags. Fortunately my coach has never seen salt, snow or ice, so I have No Rust problems. I did treat the fasteners with Blaster the day before I went to work on the replacement. The first bag I removed was the right front (Passenger side), front bag. On that unit I learned exactly what tools I would need and the best way to remove and Install the bags. That first air bag took just about an hour and a half to replace, after the learning curve was established the others only took about 30 to 45 minutes each. I did this myself, no helpers, at 75/76 years old. As I remember I did it over two days, so I could get my "Nap Time" in......

Re: Air Bags

Reply #20 – January 25, 2023, 09:28:30 am

When I bought my coach the 2 rear rear bags had been change and the front rears I did when
putting on the snow tires. The right front bags I did with the wheel on and it was hard. Maybe
that I was sick at the time made it a lot harder. The left front I took the wheel off and went a lot
quicker including taking the wheel off and on. Taking wheels off is not a big deal for me. I take
all of them off to check out the brakes once a year so. I took a socket and a made a tool to take
off the elbow.

Re: Air Bags

Reply #21 – January 28, 2023, 06:47:36 am

This is Rick. I had the original post. It was my passenger side bag, in back of the wheel, that was bad. So, while I was waiting for my mobile mechanic to come (he does a lot of work in our little community, so he is highly recommended and respected) I decided to replace at least this one, since it is the easiest. Even though it was leaking I was able to lift the coach up. I inserted all eight my support stands and then lowered the coach.
I sprayed all of the nuts a few times. It was relatively easy except for the large bolt below where the air goes in. But with a cheater bar and a crescent wrench it came off with a little elbow grease. Because of the battery compartment door, I had access to all of the nuts. I took it out, but I had trouble getting the new one in. So, I took the other one out on the other side. I had to work the next two days and my mechanic came the following day. They were able to get the one off in front of the tire. But because my safety stands were only 11 inches (nonadjustable 4x4 treated wood) they couldn't get it out between the tire and the body.
So, one word to the wise if you don't want to take the tires off make sure your supports are adjustable or they are at least 12 1/2 inches. I'm not sure what the maximum length that space is as you lift the coach. But if I had a couple of more inches, they wouldn't have had to take the tires off, which is what they did next.
If I had the right tool for the hidden nut and I had longer safety stand I could have completed the job.
As a side note I was thinking that instead of paying this mechanic for his labor I could have purchased two hydraulic jacks some nice jack stands some extra tools and have done it myself.
Anyway, I watched them and helped somewhat and learned a lot. They even putt one of my mud flaps back on that ripped out a couple of years ago as I was backing up into a space that had a little dip (the head of the bolt snapped off as I was trying to get it off, so I just left it).
They did the 4 back air bags in about 5 hours. They are coming back to do the front. I showed him a picture of the tools you all posted, and he is going to make one similar and he said it will be no problem.
So, I started the engine after they did the 4 bags and there are no leaks.
What a beautiful thing to look at my tires and see those nice new air bags. I told him only the owner could appreciate that.
I asked him if there is anything I could put on them to preserve them. He said because they are hidden from the sun, they are good. As far as the tires he said just make sure you don't put Armour all on them or anything with silicone.

Re: Air Bags

Reply #22 – January 28, 2023, 11:06:07 am

I do have a couple of the HF 20 ton hyd/air jacks but only use one for replacing the bags. With the jack being extended to the point of almost lifting the tire off the ground, there is plenty of clearance between the tire and fender. In the photo and the huge clearance between the installed air bag and the attaching point can be seen. You can also see the reason I made adjustable safety tools as they can extended for any height. I could have lifted the body without the black jack to body adapter but I wanted to eliminate the possibility of the coach falling off the jack. Yes, the body twists a bit with one jack as the bridge type construction on our 35 foot coach is only about 12 feet long. The front and rear is conventional construction so the reason our coaches flex so much and break. windshields.

Pierce

Re: Air Bags

Reply #23 – January 28, 2023, 12:48:17 pm

Here is another option for taking the fitting off. I just took an impact socket and a disk grinder and
made this tool.

Re: Air Bags

Reply #24 – February 04, 2023, 08:05:47 am

The rest of the story. I got my air bags replaced. Some helpful hints.
1.) Get the right tools or make them yourself.
2.) Use Pb blaster or equivalent for several days.
3.) Raise body up with safety stands as high as it will go (12 inches or more).
4.) Get the lower two nuts out with an impact driver.
5.) If access is an issue for hidden nuts, then simply cut off the rubber with a razor at the top and remove the bottom of the old airbag, then you have easy access to those nuts.
6.) Take the front docking lights out to view the fittings and nuts and have access that way.
7.) Use a large crowbar to get the old air bag out and the new one in.

That's about it. Really not a bad job with the right tools and some elbow grease and time.

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