3176 Will not shut down

Topic: 3176 Will not shut down (Read 909 times) previous topic - next topic

3176 Will not shut down

June 18, 2023, 09:11:48 am

Good Morning and Happy Fathers Day to all.

Need Help I just got to my destination and tried to shut down my 3176 Cat and it wont shut down,

Any Ideas?

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #1 – June 18, 2023, 10:52:58 am

Thanks For The Replies,

I had two coach's I recently sold the 2015 I-H 45 and went back to my 1995 U-300

Brett I have the 3176,
I did a lot of reading and searching finally I disconnected the solenoid behind the kick panel on the passenger side (The large red wire) and it shut down, I think that I have a problem with the alternator feeding back, The voltage on my Audit has been reading low but comes back to 13.1 at times, I read a post about a possible feed back from the alternator on the ignition wire any ideas?

Thanks Andrew

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #2 – June 18, 2023, 10:56:56 am

Quote from: Modern Day Jipzee – June 18, 2023, 10:52:58 am

The voltage on my Audit has been reading low but comes back to 13.1 at times...

Thanks Andrew

Andrew, those kinds of rapid voltage changes suggest either a bad/loose connection or the diode-based battery isolator starting to fail.

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #3 – June 18, 2023, 11:00:04 am

Quote from: wolfe10 – June 18, 2023, 10:56:56 am

Andrew, those kinds of rapid voltage changes suggest either a bad/loose connection or the diode-based battery isolator starting to fail.

Thanks

Is there a test procedure to test the isolator ?

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #4 – June 18, 2023, 11:04:11 am

Quote from: Modern Day Jipzee – June 18, 2023, 11:00:04 am

Thanks

Is there a test procedure to test the isolator ?

Good question. I know that when the isolator went bad in my 1981 Foretravel, (3208 Cat) it fried the wire going to (and into) the alternator.

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #5 – June 18, 2023, 11:07:26 am

Thanks this one went bad in 2010 but I caught it early, Noticed the voltage was over 14.5 on the Audit and James Triana suggested I change and that was it.

But It's different now its low voltage at times

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #6 – June 18, 2023, 11:17:59 am

Start by cleaning and tightening the wires at the alternator (B+ and sense wire-- ign if yours has one).

Same at the diode-based battery isolator.

Hate to see you replace something because of a poor connection. The small-gauge sense wire is often a culprit. It goes from anywhere on the chassis battery side of the battery isolator to the sense terminal of the alternator.

Next is the test:

With your digital voltmeter, connect the black/negative wire to any good clean ground source. Then do the following with engine off. Voltage at the two outer lugs (should read exactly the same as at their battery banks.

Next, start the engine and bump it up to around 1,100 with the cruise control.

Now, check voltage at center lug of the isolator (B+ from alternator). Should read in mid to high 14's.
Check at each outer lug. Should read about .7 VDC lower than at the center lug.

Let us know what you find.

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #7 – June 18, 2023, 11:31:47 am

Thank You,

Thanks for your time and input,

I'll follow up tomorrow with the results of the test,

Happy Fathers Day,

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #8 – June 19, 2023, 03:10:59 pm

Brett

I did the test you suggested

While it was a task to say the least to get the wires off the back of the alternator I did it cleaned the connections, No difference.

Tested the voltage as follows

Engine Not Running House 13.74 Chassis 12.64 Voltage at Isolator House 13.11 Chassis 12.06

Engine Running Center post 14.7 House 13.9 Chassis 13.9

The problem persist.

I moved on to the solenoid up front inside, It stays warm!! I had to disconnect the large lug wires on the down side to kill the engine yesterday. Now if I hook the wires back up the dash lights comes on without the key. But if I remove the wire on the left little lug (number 233 ) the solenoid deenergizes. After it lets go I can reconnect it and we are good until I turn the key back on and then its the same old thing the solenoid stay energized when I turn the key off.. I think its the solenoid, What about you?

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #9 – June 19, 2023, 03:40:53 pm

Andrew:

If wire 233 is the hot wire from the ignition switch, between it and good ground should only show 12+ VDC with the key on. If on all the time, either the ignition switch or wiring from it is bad.

With the hot wire removed from the ignition solenoid OR if no voltage on that 233 wire, but both sides of the solenoid have the same voltage (i.e. the solenoid contacts are closed=continuity) then indeed the solenoid is bad.

If solenoid is bad, for kicks, lightly rap on it with the plastic handle of a screwdriver. It MIGHT free it up short term.

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #10 – June 19, 2023, 04:05:10 pm

Brett

I thought so and now believe the solenoid is bad and yes I beat on it with plastic and then a 1/2 wrench Won't let go.

I'm going to replace the solenoid, I tried calling Brad at Foretravel to get the part number but he's hasn't responded so far.

Do you know the part number?

Thanks For Your Help,

Andrew

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #11 – June 19, 2023, 04:17:02 pm

Actually, many of us have upgraded to this: Solenoid L-Series - 250A 12/24V - Blue Sea Systems

Read the specs on that one. Have never heard of a failure, where the regular ones do fail.

But, you can go with the constant duty "regular" solenoid as well. Going "oversize" in terms of amp rating is a good thing. 200 amp constant duty solenoids are not much more than the lower amp ones.

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #12 – June 19, 2023, 04:41:08 pm

Brett

Thanks Again, But one more question.

Is this the same solenoid used on the Boost Switch ?

Andrew

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #13 – June 19, 2023, 04:44:08 pm

Quote from: Modern Day Jipzee – June 19, 2023, 04:41:08 pm

Brett

Thanks Again, But one more question.

Is this the same solenoid used on the Boost Switch ?

Andrew

Very likely. The specs should be the same-- constant duty and likely 200 amps.

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #14 – June 19, 2023, 04:54:53 pm

"But if I remove the wire on the left little lug (number 233 ) the solenoid deenergizes."

You need to check for voltage on this wire.. if it has voltage on it with the key off, changing the solenoid won't help your problem. It may have enough voltage present to keep it energized from a defective ignition switch. You commented that it "stays warm" ..... if no voltage on the coil wire it shouldn't stay warm.

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #15 – June 19, 2023, 06:02:07 pm

Thanks for the input Justin and Brett

No voltage on 233 key on or off

I ordered two solenoids one for the engine the other for the boost switch witch hasn't worked in a while.

I want to thank all for the help and input into this problem, I'm so proud to be a long time Foretravel owner and member of the forum its enabled me to fix many problems over the last 24 years

When I receive the solenoids I will update this thread,

Thanks Again

Andrew

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #16 – June 19, 2023, 09:06:52 pm

Don't have access to your wiring diagram, but if two small terminals, one will be ground, the other 12 VDC positive from the ignition switch (when key in on position).

Again, some solenoids have only one small terminal (for 12 VDC positive) and ground through the metal solenoid body, others have two, one ground, one the 12 VDC positive to close the solenoid. Basically interchangeable as long as you run a ground wire for the single terminal solenoids.

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #17 – June 20, 2023, 08:55:13 am

Good Morning Brett

I ordered the solenoid's should be here tomorrow, Although I'm a little worried now reading your last comments,

I have the 4 terminal solenoid,

Left small post wire 233 ground key on or off,

So then I would expect to see 12 volts with key on on the small post on the right with 4 wires,
But I don't but, the solenoid is not connected I'm putting my probe on each of the 4 wires.
I tried chassis ground and wire 233 as ground.

Scratching my head again,,, I'll leave it alone for now and wait for the solenoids.

Thanks

Andrew

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #18 – June 20, 2023, 09:32:53 am

Based on this comment that you posted in reply #8, I doubt the solenoid is bad, seems like based on your findings that something is keeping it energized.
It takes a higher voltage to "pull" the relay in than it does to "hold" it in.

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #19 – June 20, 2023, 11:04:58 am

Justin

Any Ideas?

Andrew

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #20 – June 20, 2023, 11:14:38 am

Quote from: Modern Day Jipzee – June 19, 2023, 03:10:59 pm

I moved on to the solenoid up front inside, It stays warm!! I had to disconnect the large lug wires on the down side to kill the engine yesterday. Now if I hook the wires back up the dash lights comes on without the key. But if I remove the wire on the left little lug (number 233 ) the solenoid deenergizes. After it lets go I can reconnect it and we are good until I turn the key back on and then its the same old thing the solenoid stay energized when I turn the key off.. I think its the solenoid, What about you?

Please confirm that number 233 is coming from the ignition switch to the positive small terminal of the ignition solenoid.

If so: The ignition solenoid is working properly (closed when 12 VDC positive at small signal terminal and open when that wire removed).

So, the question is why is the wire from the ignition switch to ignition solenoid hot (12 VDC positive) with the key off. Ignition switch and/or wiring need to be checked.

Basically same as I posted in #9 above.

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #21 – June 20, 2023, 03:47:32 pm

Good Afternoon

I just got off the phone with Chad at Foretravel he does not see 233 on the drawings on my coach, 233 is green and he says any green is ground and maybe that's why its not showing up. Anyway he is sending the drawings he has and I will install the solenoids when they get here and see what happens.

He did say that red 103 that was connected to the small terminal on the right energizes the solenoid with key on.

I appreciate all the help and I'll update tomorrow when I install the solenoids

Thanks Too All
Andrew

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #22 – June 20, 2023, 04:07:59 pm

So, let us know what happens with wire 103 since you have now identified it as the wire that has 12 VDC positive from the ignition switch when (and only when) the ignition key is on:

Check for voltage at the ignition solenoid between the terminal 103 connects to and ground with key off. Should be zero

Then with key on. Should be 12+ VDC.

Large lugs on ignition solenoid: Between good ground and one large lug should always have chassis battery voltage.

The other large lug should show no voltage with ignition off/ wire 103 disconnected.

The other large lug should show same voltage as the battery-side large lug with ignition on/12 VDC to small terminal 103 connects to.

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #23 – June 20, 2023, 05:23:54 pm

Yes Sir

I'm hoping for the best but prepared for the worst.

In preparing for the worst, I need to leave the Atlanta area Sunday headed to south Louisiana,

What's the risk of running the coach as is and disconnecting the 233 when I stop?

Thanks Again

Andrew

Re: 3176 Will not shut down

Reply #24 – June 20, 2023, 07:07:15 pm

No problem bypassing the ignition switch as long as the ignition solenoid is "made" to perform as it was designed ("second" large lug same voltage as "battery-side" large lug when you want to drive). Disconnected when want to turn off ignition.

If the ignition solenoid is working as designed, all you need is a 6" small-gauge jumper wire from the "battery side large lug" to the 12 VDC positive small terminal on the ignition solenoid. That will provide the same "please close" signal as you would have if the key is turned on and all working properly.

Another option: you can even remove the large-gauge cable from one side of the ignition solenoid and "add it" to the other large lug-- effectively the same as having the ignition switch on/ignition solenoid working. Obviously to "turn it off" remove the cable.

We will be on the road the next couple of days, but lots of people here on the Forum to walk you through this.

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