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Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #75
Good question.  I dug into the forum wiki.

Some years had a C-series 325 (maybe 350 later).  Some years had a 400 ISL.

The 2001 U295 is shown as a 350 ISC as does that year's U270.  The 2003's have a 400 ISL.

1999 shows U270 and U295 as both 350 ISC.

Digging further, 2002 is the first year showing the ISL.  So I guess we need a 2002 and newer U270 or U295 parts manual to know what pump was used with that engine.
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

2000 U320 36' non-slide / WildEBeest Rescue
2003 U320

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #76
I have just sent a commitment email request to Mr Morris fingers cross this will help them make a decision fast . Rick
Rick & Hilda looking forward to full- timing one day for now couple of months at a time
1999 U270 3602
Built number  5530.  Feb 1999            Motorcade  number 18438
8.3 Cummins Allison six speed with brake  retarder
Purchased Nov 28 2019

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #77
Idea,take your old shaft that is in 2 pieces,hope you saved it,if this is the main part that breaks,take it to a machine shop and see
what they would charge to make 10 or twenty shafts and split the cost among us,seals and gaskets can be made and found.
96 U270 BUILD 4810
85 380SL
Drummonds TN.

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #78
We (the forum) don't (doesn't) have a U270 Parts Manual in the Files section, so we'd need someone with a copy (or who's got that model coach and had the pump replaced) to advise as to the part number.

If someone has such a Parts Manual in PDF form, please try to upload it.  If it's too large, PM me and we'll figure out how to get it into the forum Files.
Here is pictures of the pump on a 1999 U270
Rick & Hilda looking forward to full- timing one day for now couple of months at a time
1999 U270 3602
Built number  5530.  Feb 1999            Motorcade  number 18438
8.3 Cummins Allison six speed with brake  retarder
Purchased Nov 28 2019

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #79
Just looked at a 2005 Monaco with the ISL engine. The water pump is located where the hydraulic pump is on the ISC. No hydraulic pump being driven off the belt.
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #80
I think you're going to get a private message from IRv2 and a deleted post. They don't take to kindly to someone posting links away from their site to another forum.

Yes, better to copy and paste what was posted here with a little modification to describe what the pump drives and how it is driven (to distinguish it from the PTO-driven pumps).

And, wonder if there are PTO-driven pumps that meet the same/close to the same specs and are still in production?


I'll work on that. Spent all day getting caught up around the house and winterizing the coach.
Mike in AL
2001 U295
8.3 ISC 350
Build 5918

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #81
Yes, better to copy and paste what was posted here with a little modification to describe what the pump drives and how it is driven (to distinguish it from the PTO-driven pumps).

And, wonder if there are PTO-driven pumps that meet the same/close to the same specs and are still in production?

Brett I am told that the U320, uses the 41078 and is a direct driven pump. Regardless of the fact there are no known failures, they are also affected by the same discontinuation. The 41078 is identical in function to the belt driven 41188 that I had fail. the difference is this, One is CW the other CCW rotation. One is pulley driven, the other splined gear driven. All else identical.
Mike in AL
2001 U295
8.3 ISC 350
Build 5918


Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #83
I have just sent a commitment email request to Mr Morris fingers cross this will help them make a decision fast . Rick

Quote
Mike,
Thank you for all the work and follow-up you did on this pump situation.  I'm sure it was a real pain gathering all this information while at the same time getting your wife back to work and your coach back on the road.

I just finished sending am email to Mr. Morris at the address you provided.

I urge everyone on this site to communicate to Mr. Morris your financial commitment for a pump purchase.  I realize it could be a chunk of money just sitting on your spare parts shelf that you may never use, but just imagine being stuck somewhere and the pump being unavailable.

While I realize making a commitment does not guarantee pumps or rebuild parts/kits being made, if enough demand is there to make it financially viable, the company will respond.  They are there to make money.

Maybe as a group, we can make this happen!

MS or MRS  I never asked her status, I wasnt trying to flirt only get pump info. Very nice lady, concerned about eh customer and VERY knowledge as to the product line that QCC offers.
Mike in AL
2001 U295
8.3 ISC 350
Build 5918

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #84
Hydraulic pumps that I have taken apart could be driven cw or ccw-- they were gears that were meshed together so if you changed direction with drive you changed sides with supply line
Chris
1999 U 320 DGFE
Build Number 5523
Chris & Elka Lang
In the field, Lonoke AR

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #85
Idea,take your old shaft that is in 2 pieces,hope you saved it,if this is the main part that breaks,take it to a machine shop and see
what they would charge to make 10 or twenty shafts and split the cost among us,seals and gaskets can be made and found.
I asked my nephew about this idea.  He is in this business. I sent him mkc1962's pic of the broken shaft with the ruler and caliper.
He was roughly estimating that a one-off would be $2,500+ but a run of 100 could possibly get it to less than $100 each. 
Yes, they would need one to reverse engineer. 
Dave and Kelli
1997 U295 40' Build #5188 CSGI
1995 U240 36' Build #4621 SBID-SOLD
2006 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #86
Idea,take your old shaft that is in 2 pieces,hope you saved it,if this is the main part that breaks,take it to a machine shop and see
what they would charge to make 10 or twenty shafts and split the cost among us,seals and gaskets can be made and found.

First, why bother with a clone when QCC the manufacturer is willing to possibly still carry them and ALL of the parts for this pump (41188) as well as the others in the list IF the demand is there. The Shaft at the moment is No Longer Available, but was known as part Main Drive shaft, part 30437 – 030, and sold for $209.

2nd, I tried to do as you mention at 2 separate machine shops in Central AL. ALL older guys that have been in the business a very long time, neither of them cared to do as you suggest due to the incredibly tight tolerances, and once again its ties to a steering system. You are more than welcome to try this approach where I was not able to succeed. Attached I will provide you with the Exact shaft blueprint obtained from none other than the last known manufacturing facility QCC. Pay note though, the original drawing was not proper, but I have revised it and now both I and QCC have the revised. My contact at QCC, realizing I might be on to something, went out and personally took pictures as well as measured with a micrometer my findings. The attached revised shows the proper shaft DIA at 1.124....good luck with that approach should you pursue it.

This shaft is unique to the one pump only, the 41188....the  rear housing is the item that is shared by the 9 on the list. I myself am attempting to get the support for the more logical approach that benefits all, that being to convince QCC to just keep sourcing ALL the parts.

There are no gaskets only the seal kit I mentioned earlier, that part is fully available.



Mike in AL
2001 U295
8.3 ISC 350
Build 5918

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #87
Hydraulic pumps that I have taken apart could be driven cw or ccw-- they were gears that were meshed together so if you changed direction with drive you changed sides with supply line
Chris
I CCW 41078 cannot be made to be a 41188 as the output end of the shafts is different. Change direction yes, but one is for a pulley approach, the other is for a direct gear driven approach.
Mike in AL
2001 U295
8.3 ISC 350
Build 5918

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #88
The more I Think about this problem and what causes the shaft to snap it brings me back to my steering box . My steering box started to leak from the end cap so I ordered a seal kit when I removed the end cap to replace the seal just the end cap seal there were small bits of a very hard substance all in very small pieces around the bearing if you put all the pieces together it would have made a circle someone said at the time it was glue that they use to keep the seal or bearings in place when they assemble the steering box new at the factory and that it deteriorated and braking apart I figured that's  why the seal is leaking because of this substance. I left on a trip to Florida and on my way down the Pittman seal started to leak when I got to Florida I had to have the box replaced I brought it to Paul Yasbeck in Leesburg Florida and he suggested I service the hydraulic reservoir so I did and I ask him to replace all the belts and tensioner's because the hydraulic pump tensioner was jumping . About a year after back home in Canada I started the coach up one day and a loud bang noise was coming from the engine I thought there was a connecting rod come through the block that how loud it was I shut it down  I open the engine door all look good so I started it back up and ran to back and the tensioner was slapping back and Forth against the hydraulic pump pulley very fast and hard I shut it down went back to the tensioner it look OK put a strong arm on it and move it back and forth the tensioner felt good and had a good strong tension it look and felt fine started it up and everything was running perfect the tensioner was as steady as new no jumping at all I didn't take a chance I replace the tensioner now I m thinking that that hard substance from the steering box was passed  through the hydraulic system and was jamming the pump Could it be this substance jammed the pump and shear the pump shaft maybe the hydraulic tank should be serviced to see if anything is present. I know the filter is suppose to catch any dirt .but something caused that shaft to break



1st I put new tensioners and belts on it near 3 years ago, My system pulley tensioner jump could barely be seen at all....as part of this issue I fully emptied the Hydraulic reservoir, wiped clean and inspected the filters....nothing was found....before the Pump was installed.
2nd I personally was the one to rebuild my pump, not a mark at all on the pump gears or housings, inside clean as a whistle.
Erik Wankel TLC fleet services in Albuquerque, I think portrayed many items on many coach systems that could explain why it could happen, I mentioned his view in one of my posts. Having worked in heavy industry for near 40 years, I have seen similar failures for the very reasons he stated.

If you have looked at my full thread, I do fully believe that my shaft was a long time in the failing. If you look at my early pictures you can see rust in the center of the shaft which clearly shows moisture was working through a crack for a very long time. Could be in MY situation it might have started as a bad shaft from the factory, We will never know.

also as stated, I have talked to several national Hydraulic service centers that have stated the following....."This issue of a sheared shaft on such a system WITH tapered shafts we see a few times a year, and have for a decade or more"

BBeane here on the forums knows of an owner that sheared a KEYWAY KEY, not the shaft. Upon inspection the inside of the pump had a piece of steel wedged in the gears. The Shaft 1/4" key stock should sheer in the event of a pump obstruction, that is partly what its there for, to be the weak link.

Mike in AL
2001 U295
8.3 ISC 350
Build 5918

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #89
I'll put something on facebook Foretravel page,many of them don't go here.
96 U270 BUILD 4810
85 380SL
Drummonds TN.

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #90
First, why bother with a clone when QCC the manufacturer is willing to possibly still carry them and ALL of the parts for this
Mike, I appreciate all the effort you have put into this and hopefully QCC will start making them again.  So far QCC hasn't agreed to make anything, so getting some shafts made by a machine shop seems like a good alternative if QCC says no.  I sent my nephew the blueprint and he will take a look. They can do it, just depends on quantity to get a bid.
Dave and Kelli
1997 U295 40' Build #5188 CSGI
1995 U240 36' Build #4621 SBID-SOLD
2006 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #91
The more I Think about this problem and what causes the shaft to snap it brings me back to my steering box . My steering box  I m thinking that that hard substance from the steering box was passed  through the hydraulic system and was jamming the pump Could it be this substance jammed the pump and shear the pump shaft maybe the hydraulic tank should be serviced to see if anything is present. I know the filter is suppose to catch any dirt .but something caused that shaft to break

If so, that would suggest that somehow the debris bypassed or got through the filters in the reservoir???

That is the whole purpose of the filters-- the fluid returning from PS and fan motors is filtered before being sucked in by the pump.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #92
Thank you mike for all the research you have put into this I appreciate all the effort and the time to explain everything to the tee to me about this situation and problem please don't think that my input in this subject was to be negative just giving my experience with my  tensioners I was just trying to explain my experience . I try to do all the pre-maintenance on the coach and repair everything as soon as possible I equip myself for any problem I may have on the road but now this scares me. It just takes the fun out of leaving home. Having this problem on the back of my mind knowing I can't do anything about it. I have a lot of money invested in this coach most people would say I'm crazy to have that much money invested in a 25 year old RV  and too think I would have to abandon it If I was too far from home a month ago I was 4200 hundred miles from home. just think of the cost to have this coach shipped 4200 miles back home just to stare at it in the driveway or garage .I am willing to help anyway and helping with some of the cost to solve this problem it's cheaper that a tow .I am a strong believer in pre-maintenance  but too know you have a defect in one of the major systems with known solution is very worrisome Please keep me informed. I have fallowed your advice and have sent a email out  If I can help in anyway please contact me this problem is above my pay grade. I have only had this Coach 4 years in Dec and the purchase price and the cost of repairs and time  that I put in it  would blow my mind  just to see it sit . I am scared to invest anymore into it.
Thanks again Mike 
Rick
Rick
Rick & Hilda looking forward to full- timing one day for now couple of months at a time
1999 U270 3602
Built number  5530.  Feb 1999            Motorcade  number 18438
8.3 Cummins Allison six speed with brake  retarder
Purchased Nov 28 2019

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #93
If so, that would suggest that somehow the debris bypassed or got through the filters in the reservoir???

Yes  I Was thinking the same thing, it's been three years since the hydraulic was serviced, I believe I shall service it and inspect since it wasn't me at the time in Florida that serviced it. (But Paul was very good ) something jam to make the Tensioner move that far to hit the hydraulic pulley it wasn't just jumping  it was slamming into the pulley and after I stopped the engine I check and move the tensioner back and forth I started it and the tensioner work perfect???? No jumping noticeable to the eye So the spring didn't break in the tensioner it was still functioning the engine was running the tensioner had spring tension it was keeping tension on the belt so  the pump had to be jamming  I did change the tensioner it was the simplest thing to do and it never happened sine but it was on my mind if the pump was damaged it was hitting or slapping hard I would not  like to have my finger there. I think the pump crushed or grind up what debris was there. And that hard substance in the steering box, had to have entered the hydraulic system.


Rick & Hilda looking forward to full- timing one day for now couple of months at a time
1999 U270 3602
Built number  5530.  Feb 1999            Motorcade  number 18438
8.3 Cummins Allison six speed with brake  retarder
Purchased Nov 28 2019

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #94
Rick. I don't think anything negative at all. Here is my thought on an obstructing after seeing the filters and having done mine. 1st the return fluid comes up through the center of the filters then flows outward. 2nd the filters though pleated fiber paper type are enclosed in a metal cover with holes.  Having been inside the pump and mic'ing all surfaces, there is enough play in the gears that anything that would get through the filter media and outer shell holes could easily pass the gears. 
Now there is another condition that can cause pump hammering or cavitation and that is insufficient fluid flow or too high suction vacuum which also would be created by minimum suction flow. We used to see similar all the time in my old chemical plant with pumps that had been let to run dry then not properly primed.
I still have not cut open my filters to examine but plan to....one thing that can cause too high suction value is to have the reservoir too close to the pump. Until a system stabilizes at start up the suction can outflow the return. Keeping pristine filters would minimize this....also, i agree with BBeane, this system is using incredibly heavy fluid that in itself could maybe contribute to hydraulic hammering especially when cold.  Each time such a system hammers that is un needed pressure on a rotating shaft that could eventually lead to some sort of damage.
Mike in AL
2001 U295
8.3 ISC 350
Build 5918

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #95
Mike, I appreciate all the effort you have put into this and hopefully QCC will start making them again.  So far QCC hasn't agreed to make anything, so getting some shafts made by a machine shop seems like a good alternative if QCC says no.  I sent my nephew the blueprint and he will take a look. They can do it, just depends on quantity to get a bid.

Dave,

You are correct, at this moment QCC has not committed to anything. I have been on the phone with simone morris at least a dozen times in the past week. I know and have documentation on every facet of the 41188 as well as know a small bit about the others on the list. Simone was incredibly helpful and as helping me came to realize that QCC should maybe continue to source the parts that caused these to no longer being manyfactured. She called a meeting last week and it was agreed by those present that continued sourcing was good for them as well as the consuming industry. However. The head of finance who was in vacation needed to also approve and that would not happen until this week or next.  That does not mean the 41188 or the 41078 would go back into production. But it did mean all the parts for the 41078 (u320) would be in house to build some.  The 41188 still out of shafts would need a reasonable demand fir them to also order the shafts. I can't speak for the others on the list.  But i do know that the two i mention directly affect most if not all of the 295/320 models. Just noticed yours is a 270 and your pics showed yours to also have the 41188. So now from a foretravel view we know 3 models are affected by just the 41188.

Other than informing the masses of this situation, my hopes were to get enough people to step up and show that demand so that QCC would do what they said they might if the demand is there.
Mike in AL
2001 U295
8.3 ISC 350
Build 5918

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #96
I'll put something on facebook Foretravel page,many of them don't go here.
I just did that, admin approved and visible to all there. Good idea John, thanks.  Mike
Mike in AL
2001 U295
8.3 ISC 350
Build 5918

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #97
Standard machine shops typically don't do drivetrain gears with ground hardened surfaces.
It's great you were able to get a drawing.

I've ran across these guys before but never used them.  Replacement gears is one of their specialties.
Welcome to rushgears.com - Nobody makes custom gears faster!!!

I have no idea what the cost might be.  You might consider ordering 10, 20, ?? and selling the remainder of them back to QCC.  I would touch base with them on the idea.
John Fitzgerald
1991 U300 (SAI) Side Aisle Island Bed 40'
Detroit 6V92 with Allison Retarder
Meridian (Boise), Idaho

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #98
Dave,

You are correct, at this moment QCC has not committed to anything. I have been on the phone with simone morris at least a dozen times in the past week. I know and have documentation on every facet of the 41188 as well as know a small bit about the others on the list. Simone was incredibly helpful and as helping me came to realize that QCC should maybe continue to source the parts that caused these to no longer being manyfactured. She called a meeting last week and it was agreed by those present that continued sourcing was good for them as well as the consuming industry. However. The head of finance who was in vacation needed to also approve and that would not happen until this week or next.  That does not mean the 41188 or the 41078 would go back into production. But it did mean all the parts for the 41078 (u320) would be in house to build some.  The 41188 still out of shafts would need a reasonable demand fir them to also order the shafts. I can't speak for the others on the list.  But i do know that the two i mention directly affect most if not all of the 295/320 models. Just noticed yours is a 270 and your pics showed yours to also have the 41188. So now from a foretravel view we know 3 models are affected by just the 41188.

Other than informing the masses of this situation, my hopes were to get enough people to step up and show that demand so that QCC would do what they said they might if the demand is there.

I would be glad to be part of a bulk purchase. 

-FT
2001 U270- 34'
with Aqua-hot
Travel Safely
Have Fun!!

Re: Hydraulic pump failed while traveling **ALL FORETRAVEL OWNERS SHOULD READ**

Reply #99
*** AN UPDATE ***

I got home from helping a friend and I saw where I had an email from Simone Morris at QCC, here is part of that email.

"Glad to know you made it back safely and the pump is up and running.
I have heard from two others so far on this.
We will be reviewing the situation and I will keep you posted once some decisions are made
Having these additional inquiries will help my case along. "


If all you sincere folks both here, IRV2 and facebook want to make sure you dont end up the helpless one, all the strong words of support here dont mean anything...Take the time to send Simone Morris an email saying that..
simone@qccorp.com or morris@qccorp.com

To all the Arm chair quarter backs, machinist mates, wizards, etc.... that at all places I have posted this, want me to handle this a different way, knock yourselves out. You obviously have no idea what ALL I have done and trying to do for ALL of you..of course if you read this entire forum thread you would...I dont like it anymore than you guys do, But plainly put for legal reasons as this relates to a Vehicular safety system, Not a 1 of the machine shops OR US based hydraulic suppliers will touch this...getting the manufacturer to continue to source these parts is the most reasonable solution. If you want to re-invent the wheel, and put yourself at legal risk....give it your best shot scooter!!....at the end of this post I will post ALL my technical info that I have obtained and any of you can run with it.


NOTE: we still need someone from Foretravel to come up with a schematic piping/flow diagram. I put out a special post just for this, but not 1 person has responded. Sorry Ive been pretty busy with many things not only this, I have not had the time to lay on my back and do a drawing of all the flow etc....maybe one of you that want to go a different route can do that. Attached are all the technical specs I have all in one post. But, its all you need.

PS...if someone wants to pursue the shaft machining approach, I will gladly ship you my old shaft.

This first one is the complete lab bench testing specs for the 41188, but the 41078 is identical
https://www.foreforums.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=5034

This second one is the Full QCC sales brochure that includes ALL of its pumps that are of the dual purpose variety. These two that I know of are of the CPJ180 configuration.
https://www.foreforums.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=5033

Last but no least the Shaft drawing I have already provided.
https://www.foreforums.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=5032



Mike in AL
2001 U295
8.3 ISC 350
Build 5918