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Replacing and upgrading house batteries - Gel -> Lithium

I need to replace my house batteries - the sharpie on the side of them says Aug 2012 so I'd say they've earned their right to be put out to pasture.  I have 3 Sonneschein 12 V Gel 160 Ah batteries in my interior compartment behind a panel.  I'm pretty sure I want to go to lithium. 

A couple items to note:

    • We're light users, I expect 30-40 nights a year. I anticipate little to no dry camping.  Maybe a night or two here or there.  That could but likely not for a few years.
    • We have one solar panel, I don't think we'll entertain further solar until the way we camp changes.

Current setup:
    • Alternator - 200 Amp Wilson, I think it's a remanufactured Leece Neville, 90-04-7059
    • Inverter - Xantrex Freedom SW 3012
    • 3 roof ACs, Dometic fridge, Hydrohot 200 - those are probably the biggest energy users that we consistently use

I've done a lot of reading and there seems to be endless options.

Proposed setup:
    • qty 2 LiTime 12V 300 Ah lithiums
    • DC-DC charger

Does this look ok for someone needing to replace batteries and not paint myself into a corner if I want to change things up in 3 yrs?

1.  I need to find the DC-DC charger to use - I know I need to size it to protect the alternator, but how?  Is the Victron 30A appropriate? Also, where does this physically get installed - does it replace the isolator, or can it go in the battery bay?

2.  I'll need to update the settings on the inverter.  I think I only need to change the battery type and capacity:
a. Battery type only has the options of flooded, AGM, gel, and custom - I'm not sure which to choose
b. I'll need to update the capacity in Ah - currently I have 480Ah but it is set to 440 for some reason (safety?).  I plan to change this to 600 Ah.
c. Max Charge Rate (100%)
d. Charge Cycle [3 Stage, 2 Stage No Float]
e. Recharge Volt (12.5V)
f. Low Volt Cut Out (10.5V)
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Steve and Cassi
2007 Foretravel Nimbus 42'

Re: Replacing and upgrading house batteries - Gel -> Lithium

Reply #1 –
There are a number of DC-DC chargers, some are two way where when going down the road your chassis batteries will charge your coach batteries and when you are parked with shore power the house batteries will charge your coach batteries.

Another option is a Lithium BIM
LiFePO4 Battery Isolation Manager (BIM) | Battle Born Batteries

Depends on who's batteries you buy as to what would be the best charge setting will be best for the batteries you buy.  Since you mentioned you have a custom option you may be able to set the charger what the batteries manufacturer recommends.

2014 ih45  (4th Foretravel owned)
 1997 36' U295 Sold in 2020, owned for 19 years
  U240 36' Sold to insurance company after melting in garage fire
    33' Foretravel on Dodge Chassis  Sold very long time ago

Re: Replacing and upgrading house batteries - Gel -> Lithium

Reply #2 –
So I just installed the LiTime 12v 300AH batteries. They recommend 40 amps each and up to 200 amps I recall is maximum. I didn't give it much thought other than that it was way more than the alternator is capable of producing . Using a Dc/DC isolated charger would prevent overworking the alternator. So I guess I should be looking into this but had figured the lower charging output would basically unload earlier. So much to learn. I recall my alternator is 160 amps and should be keep under like 125 amps continuously if my batteries are near full charge I wouldn't think it would be a concern. So I'm assuming this should be in the house battery cable post the Isolater? So with the Victron multi plus II 2X I was able to program the output to the LiTime Requirement in the battery manual.

Re: Replacing and upgrading house batteries - Gel -> Lithium

Reply #3 –
I put 2 LifeBlue 300 AH batteries in my coach and have been happy with them.
Gary and Darlene
2008 Nimbus SE 4030 Tahoe
Build #6463

Re: Replacing and upgrading house batteries - Gel -> Lithium

Reply #4 –
I've been window shopping for lithium batteries for a long time and watched as the ah's went up and the prices came down. These 400 ah x 12v are the best deal I've seen, and the ebay seller is getting good feedback on them...
LiFePO4 12V 400Ah Lithium Battery BMS Off-Grid Solar Power W/Chagrer Boat...
1993 U225 Build #: 4285
500 Watts Solar
Honda CRV AWD
Former 1981 Foretravel Travco
Retired, Full Time Off Grid Snowbird

Re: Replacing and upgrading house batteries - Gel -> Lithium

Reply #5 –
Buyer beware.  In many cases, especially the eBay stuff is junk.  Been many reports on credible lithium power forums of false claims, no support, non-delivery....and more.  In one case a "deal:" 400 amp lithium battery was a generic case filled with old cells rated at 180 amps....and still wouldn't hold a charge on top,of the case being stuffed with shipping peanuts to hold the cells and BMS from rattling.  Poor guy bought 5 of these things and no way to get satisfaction....

I spent several months literally quizzing several off shore and a couple on shore sellers about the details of things like cell manufacturers, BMS manufacturer, balancing methodology, interior of case details, wiring and assembly details and a whole lot more. 

I will say most of the off shore sellers were more cooperative than the US assembler/sellers....they think because they fly the flag, that makes them good.....NOT!..  All, and I mean ALL consumer grade cells come from about 5 mfgs in China.  Most BMSs come from China....

Pictures tell a story and any seller who would not provide me pics of the internals was immediately ruled out.  ...Oh, two of the US assemblers didn't even reply to my inquiries.

To distill this all down, if I had unlimited money, I would,have bought Lithionics...the true US RollsRoyce of lithium batteries...had them in my LTV, been to their factory._not anything else like it on the market, but with a price.

I finally decided on LiTime based on their complete willingness to answer any question promptly, willingness to provide pix, willingness to provide product component details (whos cells, what grade, etc.). Will Prowse stamp,of approval, several other confirmations from others who had purchased.  Even being 13 time zones away, an email in the afternoon resulted in an answer by morning.

A friend of mine bought 4 batts, thought he had a bad one (though I really think it was pilot error), sent LiTime an email expressing his concern and within a week they shipped him a replacement with a prepaid return tag for the questionable unit. 

My purchase experience was stellar.  Ordered direct, was told out of stock, but on the boat and should be in my hands in 15 days.  Kept informed as to progress, on my doorstep day 12.... 

I am sure there may be others who provide a similar level of service, but the quality once delivered proved I made the correct choice.  All 4 batteries properly and safely packaged, construction quality excellent, right down to proper epoxied terminals, good documentation and....the kicker for me, all 4 batts were perfectly balanced, exactly at 13.15 volts each at approx 40% as they specify....all that after nearly 2 months from final assembly to delivery to my door.

All I am saying is if you do go with the cheapest, be sure there is someone to take care of you and the firm not just "dumping" batteries that were assembled in a garage, by near slave labor with no real, traceable history....  Otherwise, build your own...

And, if you really wish to learn about lithium batteries, solar and related stuff, look up Off Grid Garage on the YouTube.  German electrical engineer, living in the back woods of Australia digging DEEP into all this stuff with a very humorous bent.

Here ends the lesson.....YMMV




2002 U320
3620 PBDS
Build 5985
2021 Equinox Toad
Motorcade 19006 & all those "other" clubs too!

Re: Replacing and upgrading house batteries - Gel -> Lithium

Reply #6 –
Quote from: rusczyk56 –
Buyer beware.  In many cases, especially the eBay stuff is junk.  Been many reports on credible lithium power forums of false claims, no support, non-delivery....and more.  In one case a "deal:" 400 amp lithium battery was a generic case filled with old cells rated at 180 amps....and still wouldn't hold a charge on top,of the case being stuffed with shipping peanuts to hold the cells and BMS from rattling.  Poor guy bought 5 of these things and no way to get satisfaction....

I spent several months literally quizzing several off shore and a couple on shore sellers about the details of things like cell manufacturers, BMS manufacturer, balancing methodology, interior of case details, wiring and assembly details and a whole lot more. 

I will say most of the off shore sellers were more cooperative than the US assembler/sellers....they think because they fly the flag, that makes them good.....NOT!..  All, and I mean ALL consumer grade cells come from about 5 mfgs in China.  Most BMSs come from China....

Pictures tell a story and any seller who would not provide me pics of the internals was immediately ruled out.  ...Oh, two of the US assemblers didn't even reply to my inquiries.

To distill this all down, if I had unlimited money, I would,have bought Lithionics...the true US RollsRoyce of lithium batteries...had them in my LTV, been to their factory._not anything else like it on the market, but with a price.

I finally decided on LiTime based on their complete willingness to answer any question promptly, willingness to provide pix, willingness to provide product component details (whos cells, what grade, etc.). Will Prowse stamp,of approval, several other confirmations from others who had purchased.  Even being 13 time zones away, an email in the afternoon resulted in an answer by morning.

A friend of mine bought 4 batts, thought he had a bad one (though I really think it was pilot error), sent LiTime an email expressing his concern and within a week they shipped him a replacement with a prepaid return tag for the questionable unit. 

My purchase experience was stellar.  Ordered direct, was told out of stock, but on the boat and should be in my hands in 15 days.  Kept informed as to progress, on my doorstep day 12.... 

I am sure there may be others who provide a similar level of service, but the quality once delivered proved I made the correct choice.  All 4 batteries properly and safely packaged, construction quality excellent, right down to proper epoxied terminals, good documentation and....the kicker for me, all 4 batts were perfectly balanced, exactly at 13.15 volts each at approx 40% as they specify....all that after nearly 2 months from final assembly to delivery to my door.

All I am saying is if you do go with the cheapest, be sure there is someone to take care of you and the firm not just "dumping" batteries that were assembled in a garage, by near slave labor with no real, traceable history....  Otherwise, build your own...

And, if you really wish to learn about lithium batteries, solar and related stuff, look up Off Grid Garage on the YouTube.  German electrical engineer, living in the back woods of Australia digging DEEP into all this stuff with a very humorous bent.

Here ends the lesson.....YMMV
I did what he said and so far am happy. Who knows  Thanks for all the research

Re: Replacing and upgrading house batteries - Gel -> Lithium

Reply #7 –
Looks like since Cummins left my coach unplugged for a month letting the house batteries run down to zero and now I have two that have shorted out cell since I have gotten the coach back.  The only good thing I can say is the batteries are 11 years old, but I think they would have lasted a while longer if they had not been run down.

 I have been bouncing back and forth between the Litimes and the Epoch's There is around $500 spread between the two but some of that is made up with the Epoch has heaters, fused, SOC, Bluetooth, twice the warranty, and an on off button.  The one down side I think is the Epoch's are not UL approved, or approved by anyone since they do not mention this on their web site, unless I missed it.  the Litime's are approved by a number of approving authorities.

My coach has 6  batteries with 195 AH each, looking at replacing with 2 - 460AH Do you think this is enough or do I need to add a 3rd?
2014 ih45  (4th Foretravel owned)
 1997 36' U295 Sold in 2020, owned for 19 years
  U240 36' Sold to insurance company after melting in garage fire
    33' Foretravel on Dodge Chassis  Sold very long time ago

Re: Replacing and upgrading house batteries - Gel -> Lithium

Reply #8 –
You
Might take a look at these folks. Nice product the rack mounts are a clean setup. I have a friend who purchased 3 400ah from them he is very happy.
Bruce, Linda, and Macy
Zoey RIP 1/20/19
1999 U295 40' build #5400
2017 silver Jeep Wrangler, 1260 watts of solar on top
Moving around the country

Re: Replacing and upgrading house batteries - Gel -> Lithium

Reply #9 –
The only thing that would concern me about the Lifepower4 rack batteries may not be packaged where they will be bouncing around in a coach vs sitting still in an office .
2014 ih45  (4th Foretravel owned)
 1997 36' U295 Sold in 2020, owned for 19 years
  U240 36' Sold to insurance company after melting in garage fire
    33' Foretravel on Dodge Chassis  Sold very long time ago

Re: Replacing and upgrading house batteries - Gel -> Lithium

Reply #10 –
That may be a good question to ask them, how they would do with the road vibration, and temperature variation. The company appears to have plenty of dealers and support.
Bruce, Linda, and Macy
Zoey RIP 1/20/19
1999 U295 40' build #5400
2017 silver Jeep Wrangler, 1260 watts of solar on top
Moving around the country

Re: Replacing and upgrading house batteries - Gel -> Lithium

Reply #11 –
I've been looking at those also but not at the stage to where I talk to anyone. When my Lifeline AGMs need to be replaced I will probably try them. I could probably get by with just one 400 amp battery but two would be even better.
Richard & Betty Bark & Keiko our Golden Doodle
2003 U320T 3820 PBDS
Build # 6215
MC # 16926
2016 Chevrolet Colorado 4X4 diesel

Re: Replacing and upgrading house batteries - Gel -> Lithium

Reply #12 –
I have the EG4 batteries, built the rack with rubber strip on the edges where the batteries sit and piped cabin air down to the batteries, they stay at a pretty good temp, the main issue I have had is the top battery has been replaced twice am on the 3rd battery now,  for some reason the BMS is not controlling the charge voltage and on last 2 batteries it would alarm right as they were going into absorption OV on one of the cells last battery it was #4 cell, the other battery has been good showing Cell difference of .005 last I checked. Hopefully this new battery will  hold
1999 36 ft U270
Build 5465

Re: Replacing and upgrading house batteries - Gel -> Lithium

Reply #13 –
Quote from: turbojack –
My coach has 6  batteries with 195 AH each, looking at replacing with 2 - 460AH Do you think this is enough or do I need to add a 3rd?

I've learned a lot in these last couple days and had a great conversation with rusczyk56.  One thing that I learned was that lithiums have a higher depth of discharge than lead acid batteries.  Whereas your 6 195 Ah batteries gives you 1170 Ah, you can only run them down to 50% before recharging unless you want to damage them - that's closer to 550-600 Ah.  Lithiums can be discharged much deeper - down to 20% to prolong life, but you can go lower.  So 2 460 Ah = 920 Ah.  Depleting them to 20% is 700-750 Ah.

So at the end of the day, your pair of 460 Ah lithiums actually give you more capacity than the six 195 batteries.
Steve and Cassi
2007 Foretravel Nimbus 42'

Re: Replacing and upgrading house batteries - Gel -> Lithium

Reply #14 –
Quote from: bbeane –
That may be a good question to ask them, how they would do with the road vibration, and temperature variation. The company appears to have plenty of dealers and support.

I asked Solarsovereign this questions about putting the rack mounted batteries in an RV since the manufacture is not expecting the batteries to be bounced around, and possible major temp swings.  Here is there answer.

Stefan
Most of the batteries that are either wall mount of rack mount are not ideal for RV or Boat application due to the possible high frequency impacts.  We will be carrying Victron soon.  They specialize in mobility applications, so I would look for those


2014 ih45  (4th Foretravel owned)
 1997 36' U295 Sold in 2020, owned for 19 years
  U240 36' Sold to insurance company after melting in garage fire
    33' Foretravel on Dodge Chassis  Sold very long time ago

Re: Replacing and upgrading house batteries - Gel -> Lithium

Reply #15 –
Thanks for that information! As I said, I'm not quite ready to change to lithium batteries yet but with this new info I'll be looking for a different brand.
Richard & Betty Bark & Keiko our Golden Doodle
2003 U320T 3820 PBDS
Build # 6215
MC # 16926
2016 Chevrolet Colorado 4X4 diesel

Re: Replacing and upgrading house batteries - Gel -> Lithium

Reply #16 –
Update - short story is that I chickened out and put in 3 250Ah AGM batteries.  They were monsters - 160 lb ea - but it was as close to a one-for-one battery swap as I could get.

I went from 480Ah to 750Ah, but I didn't get the lithium benefits.  It just came down to the extra time required to convert to lithium - spec the system and install the other things that needed to happen to go lithium (B2B charger, shunt, possibly rebuilding battery compartment).  @rusczyk56 spent a lot of time talking pros and cons with me but in the end, this was the quicker route.

On my Nimbus, the batteries are in the second passenger bay - tucked inside behind a cover.  2 batteries on the floor, one up on a shelf.  The batteries came out easy peasy.  I knew the challenge was going to be getting the new battery up on that shelf - you have to crawl in there and there's just not a lot of room to get a good position to lift it.  But a floor jack saves the day.

However.... even though I'm replacing 8d gels with 8d AGMs, the new batteries were about 1/2 taller.  And wouldn't you know, I got that last battery on the floor jack, raised it up, slide it onto the shelf and THUD.  It was 90% of the way in, but the posts were too tall.  I just needed to get them clear of the overhead bar and they'd drop into the shelf and I'd be able to finish the job.  What the heck?!

The fix - pull the battery back, and remove the bolts for the cross support.  This allowed the front edge of shelf to drop about 3 inches.  Put the battery back on the shelf and it slide into place.  Then use the floor jack to lift the shelf back up, and resecure with bolts.

What a mess.  Hopefully this helps someone else in the future.

The can has been kicked down the road, and next time it will be lithiums.  But I think I bought at least 6 or 8 yrs - and who's to say I'll be the one changing them out?  :)  I'm leaving a label on the batteries to remind how to remove that top one!
Steve and Cassi
2007 Foretravel Nimbus 42'

Re: Replacing and upgrading house batteries - Gel -> Lithium

Reply #17 –
My understanding is that AGMS live best if you can fully recharge them after use.
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4