Radiator fan pump

Topic: Radiator fan pump (Read 1563 times) previous topic - next topic

Radiator fan pump

June 18, 2010, 01:46:29 pm

Broke down in Tallahassee at ring power. Fan pump for radiator leaking ATF and they don't have the pump. Friday fternoon so probably stuck here till Monday. Vacation ruined. Anyone know what kind of pump this is or where to get it?

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #1 – June 18, 2010, 01:52:57 pm

Are you talking about the engine-mounted pump or the fan motor?

And VERIFY that yours uses ATF. Ours uses Delo 400 15-40. BIG difference.

Check with Foretravel parts for correct pump.

And check the bracket for cracks-- just pull hard on the belt and make sure the whole bracket does not move.

Brett Wolfe

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #2 – June 18, 2010, 01:57:36 pm

Engine mounted

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #3 – June 18, 2010, 01:59:43 pm

Dwayne, I have the 8.3 Cummins so mine is somewhat different. I had a hydraulic shop in Conyers, GA look at it. He was able to remove the pulley and snatch the seal out and install a new seal in less than an hour. See if you can find a hydraulic pump repair shop locally.
If this is a Saur pump ( not sure of spelling ) you can probably replace the seal yourself.
Process on mine was :
Remove pulley by taking out bolts, use two bolts to push pulley off shaft.
Remove snap ring
Drill small hole in seal
Run screw into hole drilled in metal of seal and snatch it out with a pair of vice grips.
Replace seal and then button it up, should lose less that a pint of fluid.
Any shop should be able to do this. Seal will have a number on it, most likely a CR Brand seal.
Give me a call if you want

Gary B 770-595-3891

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #4 – June 18, 2010, 09:15:31 pm

Nice talking to you today Gary. As I said on the phone, it is the Vickers pump. Thank you Brett for the timely info. I can't tell you how much time and hassle you saved me (and Ring Power) trying to locate that pump. As per your suggestion, I called James at Foretravel and they have the correct replacement and an assortment of fittings to make it all work. They were surprised any coach of this vintage still had that particular pump in place. I guess that was not a good pump and they long ago came up with a replacement whcih had to be adapted to existing fittings. This wasn't their first rodeo with this pump I could tell. They talked to the tech and gave him detailed instructions for putting it in. Gary told me that he'd heard of someone else replacing this pump only to have it blow out the fan motor. James Triana mentioned a proportioning valve or a check valve so perhaps they've had to rework their fix. Do you know of any history with this Brett? I will have Ring Power (CAT) check the bracket and the fluid. I know it is red from the big puddles at the rest stop and Ring Power's parking lot. Since the pump cannot be here till Monday, we rented a car and drove back home (4 1/2 hours) and will return Monday afternoon. I'm trying to reorganize the trip but we're all afraid of what's going to happen next. If the rest of this thing doesn't go trouble free there will probably be a practically new looking 92 U-240 with a lot of money spent on it recently up for sale. If there is anything else that could not be repaired without parts from half way across the country...I'd like to hear about them. I stupidly figured that like any truck or bus, most if not all of the parts where readily available and any reputable shop could deal with whatever. The suspension kind of gave me reason to pause as I now realize how unusual some of these components are but the mechanicals, I thought, were fairly straight forward and common. This episode brings me back to believing that someone should not own a motorhome unless he has a lot of aptitude or a lot of money. I know my aptitude for this is growing but at a much slower rate than my bank account is shrinking. BTW, found that the new A/C may not blow as cold but the fan is stronger so with dash air now working in tandem with the bedroom unit going full cool...keeps the coach comfortable. Good thing cause I still can't run both on generator without it giving me grief. I don't think this new refridgerant removes the moisture from the air as well as the old either. There is only a degree or two between the old and new units but overall I can really tell that it just isn't the same.

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #5 – June 18, 2010, 09:35:27 pm

Dwayne, After you get over this set back things will have to get better. I think we all go thru things like this until we learn the systems and fixes from the guys here.
When you get this squared away I would suggest that you insist that the shop give you the old pump and at first chance get it into a hydraulic shop, then either they can salvage it which will give you a spare or confirm that its toast.
We winter near Orlando so maybe this winter we can meet up.
Good luck

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #6 – June 18, 2010, 09:39:17 pm

It is important to use the correct fluid. VERIFY with James. I KNOW ours 1993 U240) uses motor oil (label says Delo 400 15-40). Viscosity difference between ATF and 15-40 oil is SIGNIFICANT! And, if your system was designed for oil, running the much thinner ATF may have contributed to pump failure.

Be sure to have the hydraulic filters replaced so you don't contaminate the new pump.

The valve James is probably talking about determines max PSI to the fan motor. The less PSI that you run at the less HP it takes and of course less air it moves. On ours, spec @ 2400 RPM cold: max 2200 PSI. We run 1500 summer and 1000 winter. If overheating, turn it higher. It takes less than one minute to adjust PSI-- just a box wrench for the lock nut and an allen wrench to adjust.

As mentioned, check the mounting bracket for a crack. Obviously, it should be rigidly attached to the engine-- no play at all.

And it sounds like you bought a reasonably neglected coach and are just playing catch-up on maintenance. Not that unusual in an 18 year old machine that may not have been maintained with TLC. Get it back up to snuff and it will do well by you.

My advice has always been, "You will be happier paying over retail for a well cared for coach than thinking you got a steal by paying below wholesale for a neglected one."

Brett Wolfe

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #7 – June 19, 2010, 07:37:06 am

Quote from: Dwayne – June 18, 2010, 09:15:31 pm

Nice talking to you today Gary. As I said on the phone, it is the Vickers pump. Thank you Brett for the timely info. I can't tell you how much time and hassle you saved me (and Ring Power) trying to locate that pump. As per your suggestion, I called James at Foretravel and they have the correct replacement and an assortment of fittings to make it all work. They were surprised any coach of this vintage still had that particular pump in place. I guess that was not a good pump and they long ago came up with a replacement whcih had to be adapted to existing fittings. This wasn't their first rodeo with this pump I could tell. They talked to the tech and gave him detailed instructions for putting it in. Gary told me that he'd heard of someone else replacing this pump only to have it blow out the fan motor. James Triana mentioned a proportioning valve or a check valve so perhaps they've had to rework their fix. Do you know of any history with this Brett? I will have Ring Power (CAT) check the bracket and the fluid. I know it is red from the big puddles at the rest stop and Ring Power's parking lot. Since the pump cannot be here till Monday, we rented a car and drove back home (4 1/2 hours) and will return Monday afternoon. I'm trying to reorganize the trip but we're all afraid of what's going to happen next. If the rest of this thing doesn't go trouble free there will probably be a practically new looking 92 U-240 with a lot of money spent on it recently up for sale. If there is anything else that could not be repaired without parts from half way across the country...I'd like to hear about them. I stupidly figured that like any truck or bus, most if not all of the parts where readily available and any reputable shop could deal with whatever. The suspension kind of gave me reason to pause as I now realize how unusual some of these components are but the mechanicals, I thought, were fairly straight forward and common. This episode brings me back to believing that someone should not own a motorhome unless he has a lot of aptitude or a lot of money. I know my aptitude for this is growing but at a much slower rate than my bank account is shrinking. BTW, found that the new A/C may not blow as cold but the fan is stronger so with dash air now working in tandem with the bedroom unit going full cool...keeps the coach comfortable. Good thing cause I still can't run both on generator without it giving me grief. I don't think this new refridgerant removes the moisture from the air as well as the old either. There is only a degree or two between the old and new units but overall I can really tell that it just isn't the same.

Dwyane, I feel your pain. I have had so many thing break on me that I just laugh now. It does make you lighter in the wallet though.. i will say that it takes about 2 years of ownership when you buy an older unit to get the stuff worked out. You will still have stuff break but it is not a common. Usually the issue is lack of use.. The best thing I do is always build in an extra couple days on any trip. I had to have my coach repaired on the 4th of july weekend at cummins in Indy and they were great. I pulled in that friday of the three day weekend and they had me out friday night. I did not have an appointment but rather the check engine light came on. It was my first experience with that. I learned how to read the blink codes and how to find the button to push to find them. I will say that is is always an experience traveling with a motorhome. Sometimes it comes in handy though, I got to fix a friends slideout after I was told what was happening. WHy was it an easy fix for me, well because I drove half way across the country to HWH at 4 dollar a gallon diesel to learn that lesson and had to drive it a second time when the first fix did not fix it..

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #8 – June 19, 2010, 09:56:43 am

Dwayne,

One other thing on the hydraulic pump. According to Barnes-Haldex (maker of the pump) the primary cause of main shaft leaking is belt OVER-tension which puts excessive stress on the front bushing which leads to bushing and then seal failure.

Because the belt has over 50% coverage on crank and pump pulley, it doesn't need to be overly tight.

OK, with the automatic belt tensioner, how do you change the belt tension???

Remove the tensioner and you will see that in addition to the center mounting bolt, there is a detent hole in the bracket that allows the tenioner to "wind up". Merely drill a new detent hole (the bracket is mild steel, so it is easy to drill) counterclockwise from the old hole. As long as the belt doesn't slip (doesn't get shiny) it is not too loose.

Brett Wolfe

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #9 – June 20, 2010, 07:11:35 pm

I am going to check with James Triana first thing tomorrow morning to see if they can check the serial number on my rig to determine if my system should have the Delo. I can tell you it looks red like ATF. In the event that it is supposed to be Delo or there is a sticker for Delo, is there any other legitimate substitute that might look like ATF that someone might have used?

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #10 – June 20, 2010, 07:58:11 pm

Dwayne,

No, both from a color and viscosity standpoint, 15-40 motor oil (golden and much more viscous) is quite different from ATF (red and low viscosity).

And, your system MAY have been designed for ATF, but it would be surprising that they would change from ATF to Delo 400 15-40 from one year to the next-- same drivetrain.

Brett Wolfe

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #11 – June 20, 2010, 11:32:18 pm

I sure hope that it was. I hate to think what other troubles I could soon be looking at. I don't have many good photos of the engine compartment but there is one and you can see there is no label remaining so maybe there was a screw-up somewhere along the line. Here it is anyway.

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #12 – June 21, 2010, 02:48:08 pm

According to James Triana it should have left Nac with oil but I see In archives that 92 with 3208 was ATF. CAT in Tallahassee says it doesn't look like anything had ever been changed and James said the only reason for oil was so we didn't have to carry multiple fluids. Looks like split resouvoir so fan is seperate and CAT says the ATF is fine. They are waiting on a fitting for the hose to pressure relief valve now required and supplied by Foretravel with replacement pump. Hope this info is correct and we are back underway this afternoon with successful repairs.

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #13 – June 21, 2010, 07:35:37 pm

Dwayne, I'm confused by your saying SPLIT reservoir and FAN is separate .
Is there not a separate hydraulic pump for the power steering mounted on the engine ?
I would guess that if its anything like the Cummins that you have a separate system for steering from the fan system but that is only a guess.
Glad to see that you are getting closer to getting on the road. Keep us posted.

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #14 – June 21, 2010, 07:42:42 pm

Gary,

You are correct.

At least on the 1993 U240, the hydraulic pump for cooling fan motor is separately mounted on its own bracket with its own belt.

The Power Steering pump is mounted on the forward end of the air compressor.

They each have their own separate reservoir-- large one for fan system and smaller diameter one for PS.

Brett Wolfe

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #15 – June 21, 2010, 07:55:43 pm

Brett, I know that there is an exception to every rule BUT I would assume that all the CAT 3116's like yours would be set up the same.
Do you think that the use of ATF would have affected the condition of Dwayne's hydraulic pump ?
I am sure Dwayne can answer this Does your coach have one system using ATF and one system using oil ? How about yours Brett do you have both ATF and oil systems ?
It just seems strange that the use of oil as fluid is not standard.

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #16 – June 21, 2010, 09:11:32 pm

On our 1993 U240 built fall 1992, Delo 400 15-40 in both and reservoirs and labeled as such.

It is clearly just an arm chair guess, but most of these seals failed from having the belt overtensioned. Drilling a new detent hole giving less belt tension has been discussed for a long time. With over 50% of each pulley being in contact with the belt, it does not need to be overtensioned.

I would suggest that Dwayne confirm with the NEW pump maker that ATF is an acceptable fluid-- it is likely to be OK, but I would not ASSUME.

Brett

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #17 – June 22, 2010, 11:16:48 pm

My set up with large & small tank is as Brett says but the big tank is ATF (small PS is Delo). My unit is an early on with the 3116. As I said, James Triana didn't seem to think it was a big deal even if it had been delo in the fan motor. It has one filter rather than two. The vacation from hell continues. When we picked it up, the coach battery was dead. They left lights on from Friday to Monday. The chassis battery was weak. After getting started I noticed that volt meter on the dash showed 11 volts. Obviously the alternator was kaput. We stopped at a CG overnight so I could charge the battery on shorepower and the chassis battery on a charger I had with me. The CG owner (Pensacola Campground) was great and the place is very nice and just off I-10. He told me about Empire Freightliner where I went for the alternator. Lost several hours there and hit the road again. Got to Jackson, MS and 11 volts on the guage again. Called Empire and they told me that they had a branch there which I was passing by so we stopped. Sure enough bad alternator. None in stock so we are stuck in a hotel. I am so disgusted. I couldn't trust the house battery to get by on the boost. I am also very worried that I have an underlying problem (see last dozen posts about the generator, A/C units and transfer switch) that is killing the alternator. I find it hard to believe that a brand new (not rebuilt) alternator lasted four hours (generator was running the entire time). Something is going on here. The only commonality between the generator and alternator is transfer switch, isolator and ground...correct? Anyone have any ideas how an alternator could be ruined by the generator? My wife wants to unload this rig big time. After all this I can't offer up any defenses. She and my daughter are ready to set fire to the thing.

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #18 – June 23, 2010, 08:28:43 am

Dwayne, Are you sure the right alternator was installed ? On MOST FT's the alt is a four wire EXTERNALLY EXCITED one. Trucks use a different wiring system . Was your old alt a Hyer Powerline ? This seems to have been standard. It would not be uncommon to overload an ALT with the batteries dead, charging at full rate into dead batteries causes a lot of heat and with current weather conditions that may have been the killer. Wish I was there with you maybe we could get some questions answered. At this point I would get ahold of either FOT or MOT and confirm wiring for the alt. You will probably have to charge batteries from an external source so that you can begin with them fully charged. Sorry to hear of all your problems.

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #19 – June 23, 2010, 01:46:42 pm

Quote from: Dwayne – June 22, 2010, 11:16:48 pm

The only commonality between the generator and alternator is transfer switch, isolator and ground...correct? Anyone have any ideas how an alternator could be ruined by the generator?

They are NOT related.

The ATS is 120 VAC.

The battery isolator is 12 VDC only.

Ground is 12 VDC only (except at generator, but that is really not an issue).

I agree with all the issues you are experiencing, you either need to troubleshoot it yourself, have someone else do it or indeed, sell the coach. No fun to continue to with one breakdown after another. But, not really fair to expect an 18 year old coach that may have had minimal maintenance and probably mostly 18 year old equipment to be trouble-free.

Brett

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #20 – June 23, 2010, 06:03:17 pm

Agree. They think there us a 12 volt short. None of the rear clearance lights have power. I had interior work done so maybe a wire was pierced. Brett, do you know where the wire is that feeds these and where does it come from?

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #21 – June 23, 2010, 08:09:00 pm

The wiring diagram for the 1993 U240 shows power (12 VDC+) for all the clearance lights coming off the same relay which is on the far left when you raise the dash lid.

If only some of them are not working, first thing I would do is temporarily add a good clearance light GROUND SIDE to good clean ground. Clearance light ground on my wiring diagram is WHITE. If they then work, either clean the existing ground, or add a permanent "extra" ground.

Brett

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #22 – June 26, 2010, 03:21:18 am

I will try a clean ground. Thanks. It is odd that they all work except the rear and back corners. One had signs of water intrusion. I am now in Las Vegas after the alternator fiasco. I will check into the belt when I get home. After breaking down in Tallahassee on Friday of last week (vacation day 1) and waiting until Monday for new pump and the re-engineering necessary for it (pressure relief valve with bypass back to tank), we hit the road and only made it to Pensacola when the alternator failed. Went to Empire Freightliner and they installed one the had in stock. Lost a day there. Noticed in Jackson, Miss that it was not charging just as I was driving by Empire store there. They said the alternator was bad and ordered a new one (that wouldn't be in until Tuesday). Tuesday afternoon they had it in but it still wouldn't work. This forum saved me. Gary mentioned that most had a four wire externally excited alternator. I told Empire this and they started looking at the install, which simply duplicated Pensacola's install. They did not run the jumper wire necessary so all I had leaving Pensacola was a recharged chassis battery and ran it down by the time I got to Jackson. I literally noticed it as I was passing by Empire Freightliner and I didn't even know they had a store there. Thanks Gary! Met a lot of truckers there. I was losing vacation time but these guys were losing money. The alternator is now good. The fan is another story. The fan itself is now seeping fluid. CAT in Tallahassee seemed to think ATF was correct. I've checked the fluid constantly on the drive out west and don't really lose much while running. The pressure must help secure the seal. After shutting down I will see a small puddle though and have to add some ATF. I've used about a quart and a half from Tallahassee to Vegas from Monday to Friday (including my two day stay at Empire in Jackson). I think the pressure relief valve has some seepage too. I was a bit concerned running in the desert. I noticed on an uphill grade at 60-65 the temp was climbing to around 210 but otherwise stayed at 180-190. Slowing it down always brought the temp down. I don't even know at what temp on engine or transmission is too high. I stopped to check the fluid in that fan system so many times and to make sure the fan was still turning. The new set-up keeps the fan running constantly. I think before it came on and went off but not sure. I sure hope I get back home without the fan failing. I don't want to sit all day in another service center on this trip. Does anyone know if this is a readily available part or another next day air from Nac? Can the seal be replaced? I knew this would be the weak link and should have been replaced with the pump. Otherwise the rig ran good and got a lot of comments at gas stations and campgrounds from the owners of some big dollar rigs. Even the guy who called it a dinosaur was trying to be complimentary. We are at Oasis in Vegas. Very nice. Very convenient.

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #23 – June 26, 2010, 10:27:00 am

Both OE and replacement fans were constant speed fans.

What PSI did they set on the bypass valve?

Did you replace the fan motor (that is now leaking) or just the pump?

Have you cleaned the CAC and radiator (from the side of the coach with garden hose)? Dirt can easily obstruct air flow.

And, with your drivetrain, if engine temperature goes over about 205, downshift and bring RPM's up to about 2200.

Brett Wolfe

Re: Radiator fan pump

Reply #24 – June 27, 2010, 03:41:05 am

The valve came from Foretravel pre-adjusted I think but I seem to remember the tech saying 55 psi. Could be mistaken. I did spray around the radiator and CAC with the hose but it looked clean and no dirt came off. Last year I had no leaks of any kind. Prior to this trip I had the oil, coolant and transmission fluid changed. Now I have various drips (looks like oil and ATF) in addition to the fan system though all the levels look good on the dipsticks. I guess I was right in worrying once the coolant temp went above 200, though 20 degrees above normal doesn't seem like that much. I just knew I'd never seem a temp like that before. I will have to address the fan issue. Can it be rebuilt or is it readily available? Also, I don't relish that trip back to Williams, AZ (doing the canyon next week) on 95 through Searchlight. I came up that way cause the most direct route looked a little steep and they had signs telling buses and trucks to go around so I did too. Does anyone know if going by the dam is prohibited in a MH too and, if not, just how steep is it?

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