FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Topic: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's) (Read 3154 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #50 – October 16, 2013, 04:19:07 pm

There seems to be a tendency here to link the words "less expensive" with low quality. There are plenty of lower quality coaches on the market and I don't think anyone is suggesting that FT create a new coach that does not have the quality that all of us expect from Foretravel. What is being suggested is that there could be a coach that is shorter (say 36') and with a smaller profile than the IH45. Also, one that is simpler in design and in options (i.e., fewer of the electronic niceties that typically create so many issues after a few years). And with a pricetag in the less than $500K range. I agree, FT probably isn't equipped to get into that market, but with the heck, it is interesting to speculate about possible directions for the company. We all want it to succeed for years to come.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #51 – October 16, 2013, 04:25:32 pm

I wonder how many would be ready to purchase a new, least expensive unit from Foretravel in this Forum. Lets say the new coach will cost $250,000 and be a 36 footer. You can get it in a front entry door or a mid entry door. OK - now you will have to put your money up front before ordering. How many takers do we have? Naturally, this is not going to happen but lets see how many people are really willing to spend money in this category rather than buying coaches that are in the price point of less than $100,000.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #52 – October 16, 2013, 04:32:23 pm

Quote from: George Hatfield – October 16, 2013, 04:19:07 pm

There seems to be a tendency here to link the words "less expensive" with low quality. There are plenty of lower quality coaches on the market and I don't think anyone is suggesting that FT create a new coach that does not have the quality that all of us expect from Foretravel. What is being suggested is that there could be a coach that is shorter (say 36') and with a smaller profile than the IH45. Also, one that is simpler in design and in options (i.e., fewer of the electronic niceties that typically create so many issues after a few years). And with a pricetag in the less than $500K range. I agree, FT probably isn't equipped to get into that market, but with the heck, it is interesting to speculate about possible directions for the company. We all want it to succeed for years to come.

Yes

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #53 – October 16, 2013, 06:11:02 pm

I have often wondered why that don't "factory refurbish" some of the well cared for older coaches I see on the market. Somehow I feel like there is a market for units that have been gone through and repaired/updated by the factory.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #54 – October 16, 2013, 06:34:05 pm

Quote from: anny – October 16, 2013, 04:25:32 pm

I wonder how many would be ready to purchase a new, least expensive unit from Foretravel in this Forum. Lets say the new coach will cost $250,000 and be a 36 footer. You can get it in a front entry door or a mid entry door. OK - now you will have to put your money up front before ordering. How many takers do we have? Naturally, this is not going to happen but lets see how many people are really willing to spend money in this category rather than buying coaches that are in the price point of less than $100,000.

Almost thirty years ago when I started selling Foretravels it became quickly clear that the vast majority of customers would not or could not purchase a new coach from us.

I always did what cm fore told me which was to allow "everyone to have the opportunity to purchase one". Even though I knew the vast majority were not going to buy I took hundreds of demo rides.

So like a lot here I figured out a way to get some of the customers into a Foretravel.

I rebuilt the older used ftx coaches into whatever brand new interior they liked.

Sold a bunch. Got them into the club which built a lot of brand loyalty.

Many traded up into later used. Some new.

Step buying I call it. Or my favorite "bob's law of incremental commitment".

Without a trade up structure built into the factories system in which the steps are financially reachable you break the continuity carefully built into the original system that worked for 30 years plus.

Foretravel purchased travco for the established travel club and and gtc for the grand villa front cap and Avco for their owners to join the club.

If I ran Foretravel I would be actively searching for nice used coaches to rebuild the trade up structure and rebuild them in house for resale. And the sales profits.

I used to buy coaches actively for some dealers I worked for. Mostly big stuff.

If a customer came into my store willing to spend $30k plus for a remodel I would make sure I had a few years newer model already redone ready to roll to show them.

As everyone here has commented Foretravels remodel shop is busy. As is service.

My advantage was I gave a basically unlimited warranty. Told the used buyers to bring me a list and I would fix all of it on me. And did it.

Yes I charged more. The customers paid retail and got a retail experience and support.

First year as sales manager i spent $75k of company money to fix every coach that had been sold by my store and never made right for the customer by being to frugal to stand behind anything out of warranty. Stupid.

For a lot of customers it was not the money it was the idea.

They were all amazed I fixed all their old not correct coaches over a few years.

Almost every one who could financially afford a newer or new coach bought again.

Texas was surprised as after three years I the factory store at the factory. They were too embarrassed to admit I made more money for them also.

Almost have to start over with a trade up structure again.

Bare bones unicoach? No paint, one or no slide, explain the quality and stress the club.

A large percentage of the buyers then did it for the new friends they made in the club.

100 coaches at the grand vention is the key.

I had a Foretravel rally at dodger stadium myself during the old manufacturers show their that had 115 coaches dry camped in the parking lot. Giant steak cookout. What fun.

Allowed buddies to show up. Worked then.

Almost need to start over with a less expensive product and work it like the original system in my opinion.

Motorcades and club and factory stores to fix the rigs on the road worked before....

Bob

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #55 – October 16, 2013, 06:35:06 pm

Quote from: Falconguy – October 16, 2013, 06:11:02 pm

I have often wondered why that don't "factory refurbish" some of the well cared for older coaches I see on the market. Somehow I feel like there is a market for units that have been gone through and repaired/updated by the factory.

You were posting as I was typing it seems.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #56 – October 16, 2013, 07:24:57 pm

I think FT is using the refurbish strategy today through FT of Texas, but without the capital requirement. They are selling a lot of consignment coaches, then updating them with paint and interior redesign.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #57 – October 16, 2013, 08:08:35 pm

I thought George and Michelle, maybe anny....I forget all the posts...made points that I had been thinking so I liked those. There is another option.

I had been told a price you might be able to buy FOT. If it were true. And you could do some local mergers and construct a team and combine with a nice RV park, I wonder if you could not build an enterprise that would do much if not all of what many said in this thread. It would be fun to explain in a private dialogue which I guess, would be more proper than herein.

Bet you can think of the options I have been playing with! Wish I had some folks with business models to think on it. After all, it must make money...it cannot be financed or built just because I or you are enthused about these machines and the travel!

Hope all are well, Mike

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #58 – October 16, 2013, 08:50:08 pm

Can someone tell me the difference between say a 2000 U320 chassis and the new Foretravel chassis.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #59 – October 16, 2013, 09:51:15 pm

So here is my 2¢ worth. If you are like me and own a 2001, 36 ft U320 with one slide, which fits our needs very well, I see no upgrade path when this coach is 15 years old to one that is about 10 years old.

I am willing to put paint, upgrades, remodels and whatever it takes to keep this one looking and functioning well. A 38' or 40' tag might make sense but I'm not sure I like the two slide choices. Our 36' gets us into a lot of places that a longer coach just wouldn't fit or would be harder to maneuver. And what would be available for 2006 or newer would be taller, weigh 10-12,000 lbs more and have a lower HP/weight ratio.

Maybe it is just us but we prefer the warmth of cherry wood and the softer look and feel of fabrics compared to the high gloss, hard surfaces we have seen in so many new and newer FT coaches.

At the rate we are adding miles we will be hard pressed to get to 170k by the time we have owned it for 10 years (2021 and we will be nearing mid 70s). Maybe we will get by with what we have.

Roger

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #60 – October 17, 2013, 05:58:20 pm

We left Nac today, but got this pic on the way out. What a difference 10 years makes!

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #61 – October 17, 2013, 06:03:21 pm

Wow! That IH45 makes your coach look small. It is hard to imagine getting that big of a coach into some of the small State Parks we like to visit. But then most folks are sure our U320 would never make it through the winding roads and into smaller camp sites that it does.

Thanks for the contrasting view.

Roger

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #62 – October 17, 2013, 06:59:54 pm

Quote from: Home2fromHastings – October 17, 2013, 06:03:21 pm

Wow! That IH45 makes your coach look small. It is hard to imagine getting that big of a coach into some of the small State Parks we like to visit. But then most folks are sure our U320 would never make it through the winding roads and into smaller camp sites that it does.

Thanks for the contrasting view.

Roger

Rodger, as an owner of an IH45, we would not consider state parks as an option to stay in. Since many of these parks are more suited for smaller RVs, the would not be a choice for us. There are so many more private RV parks to enjoy as well as some parks that offer more amenities. We stay at one park that includes a private airport so my love can fly his plane here for the two months we stay.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #63 – October 17, 2013, 07:28:42 pm

Quote from: George Hatfield – October 17, 2013, 05:58:20 pm

We left Nac today, but got this pic on the way out. What a difference 10 years makes!

I much prefer the look of "old".

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #64 – October 17, 2013, 08:01:27 pm

Quote from: George Hatfield – October 17, 2013, 05:58:20 pm

We left Nac today, but got this pic on the way out. What a difference 10 years makes!

Our recreational preferences requires that Forrest get into some pretty tight spots. So for the remainder we'll keep him. But if we ever have a few hundred coach bucks laying around with nothing to do we would buy a house on Manasota Key, FL.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #65 – October 17, 2013, 08:28:29 pm

Hey Anny, We just got back from a two week stay in MN State Parks on the North Shore of Lake Superior. Temperance River SP would have had no trouble with an IH45. Paved roads and electric hookups. We faced out over the lake and enjoyed warm and sunny Fall days. Gooseberry Falls SP would have been a challenge for a 45 but we fit just fine. Everyone enjoys what they like. Our 36' FT keeps us out of many places we used to get into with our earlier, smaller RV.

An RV park with an airport. Pretty cool. Combine both with a visit to the EAA AirVenture in Oshkosh, WI. Last week in July. Airplane and RV heaven. Full hookups, thousands of airplanes and the best folks of both transportation modes.

Nice to hear your perspectives in the ForeForums, Anny. Thanks for joining in.

Roger

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #66 – October 23, 2013, 12:12:44 am

Quote from: George Hatfield – October 17, 2013, 05:58:20 pm

We left Nac today, but got this pic on the way out. What a difference 10 years makes!

Both look great.. and there are buyers for each...

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #67 – December 04, 2013, 08:07:24 am

Quote from: Michelle – October 16, 2013, 08:40:36 am

The new coaches are also targeted towards a different end user than the previous generations. There are a number of folks on the forum who likely have several coach purchases in their RV future, but don't see some of the desired features of their current FTs in the new models (a couple of examples are, but not limited to, lower exterior height, interior cabinet storage, etc.) For them it has less to do with affordability and much to do with wanting what drew them to FT in the first place. With the company reinventing its product line it leaves this segment of owners struggling to figure out what their next coach will be.

As a new member looking at the possibility of owning a FT in the future (Currently own a nice 2010 Tiffin DP) and going to the factory next week, this thread has been very interesting.

Michelle makes a good point when she brings up "future generations". My wife and I still work (and actually use our 30% of the time for that). Here is my observation on future Generations of owners.
We have purchased two coaches in the last 18 months, been to FMCA rally's etc.

What we have noticed is that (and I am generalizing from my personal observations) is that RV ownership is an aging consumer/owner. Having said that, we have noticed at our last purchase this May, we met many new owners who are 50 or under some of whom were full timers. Now I understand this is rare, but the new ownership profile was interesting. We started seeing more and more younger owners in the places we go and not all of them are driving 10 year old coaches.
We also notice that many coach brands are incorporating bunk models even in DP and not just for Grandparents.
What is the new generation looking for. My best guess is..... more experiences away from the humdrum of everyday life and work, more together family experiences, not saving travel for the latter years etc.
I am often concerned when I see neighbor travelers whose physical condition makes me wonder how safe it is for them behind the wheel no less setting up and closing down their coaches.

I also think that when you see the interiors and options of newer coaches, perhaps those interiors are done to attract the newer buyer.
Now I also understand that financially the mature couple could have built there "fortunes" and may be in more of a position to spend the money it costs....."owning an RV is not for sissy's but after seeing these younger new buyers, they have seem to have the luxury of better incomes and the choice of doing it instead of waiting till later.

And finally, my own Mother and Dad always (for years) said they wanted to own an RV and travel the country when they retired. My Dad is long gone and my Mom is late 80s. They never realized their dream because "life", 4 kids and alternate finances got in the way. Now Mom lives vicariously through us.

The economy and financial markets will always go through cycles. I agree with one poster who suggests a company should look 10 years down the road and should decide who they want their market to be. I am not suggesting that the 40 to 50 something is their market, but better chance that it could be their future.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #68 – December 04, 2013, 04:23:44 pm

We like our 36 fter. It gets us where we want to go with little or no problems. We enjoy the windy roads and the hills and the slower pace. I find that if the road has lots of turns and hills I don't have to stir the sugar in my coffee.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #69 – December 05, 2013, 01:41:44 pm

I have already trimmed a few trees with my U320's antennae. Taking a IH45 down some of the roads I go on would be impossible because of the height. I think that extending the range downward would be a good idea in order to get the high/middle range of buyers into the process for the factory as they are now buying used.

Keith

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #70 – December 05, 2013, 05:41:27 pm

Twenty years go it was possible - even likely - that a worker would retire at age 55. Exxon, and many other corporations, had "early retirement" programs actively encouraging workers to retire early; often with full benefits. My wife's parents both retired at 55; first one, and then the other. And they bought RVs and traveled the country in them (sometimes with our kids). When my wife first saw me I was in a truck camper and she was with her parents in their first Class A (a Champion). When she met me a couple of years later she knew that I was an RVer and camper and I don't think that hurt our budding relationship.

Many of those company retirement programs are gone now and many more have been degraded. Today's working stiff will be lucky to retire at age 67 with full Social Security and maybe a few bucks in an IRA or 401K account. But the days of retiring at 55 are gone; at least for now.

Still, there are lots of people who are making quite a nice bit of money in their paychecks. My son-in-law had a $300,000 a year salary at his last place and is now out on his own consulting. He's not making as much money right now but he has some potential to make a great deal more as he works on some patentable ideas in his home office.

Those high-paying professionals - not just wall street bankers - are part of a big future wave of buyers. Our grandkids RV with their parents in a diesel powered Ford pickup with a DVD player for each of them (no fighting about whose movie they watch) and sleep in bunkbeds (also with DVD players) in the travel trailer the Ford pulls. They have a "camping lot" near Seattle that they visit every month or two for a long weekend (often while daddy goes to meetings with his clients). They don't want - or need - a motorhome in the near future... but they see us with ours and while their TT has the occasional luxury (a big queen bed and a huge dinette) the overall picture is much more spartan than ours.

They RV a lot and they see flaws in their $20,000 travel trailer they bought brand new 4 years ago and they have compared it to our 20-year-old RV that still looks new inside. At some point they're going to want a quality motor home. Maybe not in 10 years or even 20 (they're mid-30s now) but even if they're not quite ready, there are others who are. I see a good future for FT. I'm not sure they need to sell to all facets of the market. Barring another "great recession" I think they'll do fine.

Craig

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