FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Topic: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's) (Read 3154 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #25 – October 15, 2013, 05:22:07 pm

Quote from: George Hatfield – October 15, 2013, 05:03:17 pm

Well count me as a person "without funds." And I don't want a coach that looks like the 90s either. My point, perhaps I was unclear, was that there are many Tiffin coaches on the road that are 10-15 years old. That says a lot, at least to me.

Another thing that impresses me about Tiffin is their new line of smaller diesel pusher coaches.... 34' of so. Very nice looking and they seem to be selling well. A number of us have suggested that FT go this route and sell a quality coach in shorter lengths for those "without funds."

I would say that there are enough low end coaches on the market today and Foretravel is best off not offering small end coaches. The image today of Foretravel is building quality full size coaches. This is not the time economically to experiment with low end coaches or smaller coaches less than 40 feet. I surely wish Foretravel the best and stay strong with the product line that is developed today and proven true.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #26 – October 15, 2013, 08:16:24 pm

I expect building small coaches is like building small houses. They've both got a driveway, sewer tap, kitchen, bathrooms, HVAC system. The extra gross square footage of the larger house is cheap and easier to sell for more money. Small = small profit margin unless you can cut in other areas.

Now if someone could figure out how to pultrude (extruded fiberglass shapes process) unitbody lightweight coach frames/sidewalls/roof with some carbon for rigidity in critical areas you could squeeze one out any length you want. Chop it off, glue on caps and add running gear! Something like that is where efficiency will start which is what the industry in general needs. Look how many mpg cars squeeze out these days, and some of em have got some punch.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #27 – October 15, 2013, 08:22:36 pm

I don't feel a Ladies Driving School effect here in FT service. Every bay is filled. David Flanagan has a backlog of 29 projects, 5 of which are residential fridge conversions, stretching out into January. And that's with a 60% staff increase.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #28 – October 15, 2013, 08:23:03 pm

I don't think anyone has suggested that FT start to produce "low end" coaches. But of course everything is relative when one defines "low end." What has been suggested is that FT produce a smaller, but high quality coach, and at a price that a larger group of consumers could afford. What happens when all the pre-2005 FT coaches are retired? FT has nothing to take their place for those that have brand loyalty. In some respects we live in a "golden age" for FT coaches where many of modest means can afford to own and enjoy a FT.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #29 – October 15, 2013, 08:26:21 pm

True, true. Unfortunately, Foretravel's biggest competitor, I think, is Foretravel used coaches. Maybe that's why I've taken steps to jump ahead of Dave Head as a buyer of what he thinks will be his next coach.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #30 – October 15, 2013, 08:29:48 pm

Are we approaching an era when older FT's start appreciating like classic cars?

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #31 – October 15, 2013, 08:46:40 pm

There does not seem to be as many of them hitting the market these days. Lots of folks, myself included, have found the purchase and cost of ownership to provide an outstanding value. The only way I'd sell mine is if I found a pristine version of a slightly newer FT coach available or I lost the physical capabilities to use and care for it.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #32 – October 15, 2013, 08:50:51 pm

Fine by me. I'm out of the market for at least five years while we shed debt. We got one trip done this year. Then Starr began her hospital stays. She is now on her 7th stay since April. Coach needs rear seals and brakes all around. Likely a few bad guide pins as one pad thin, one thick on all four corners. I will have the back done and likely do the fronts with some assistance.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #33 – October 15, 2013, 08:54:30 pm

Sounds about like my plan, Had considered a new 38' Phenix with the 600 ISX, but its too heavy for my taste, I prefer something more nimble like my 01 36" with the ISM500 setup and of course the red neck resonator. Along with all the other mods that I have made to this buggy, there is no way I could give it up short of total destruction or do like the frog and croak.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #34 – October 15, 2013, 10:21:02 pm

Quote from: propman – October 15, 2013, 09:03:18 pm

I was saying the same thing. I am years away from retirement. WhenI retire I would love to discover North America in FT full time; now i don't think i can do that in my 94/U225 (maybe i can) so i plan on upgrading within the next 10-15 years. Then my options will be what? If build today for 1+ million dollar FT's which as used I imagine be more than 250K .. I don't know .... and I don't know if i can effort that ... So I was saying that such a great brand FT is ... if they start producing 250-500K FT's today, I believe they can sell and still make good profit, while they guarantee longevity of the company .... and folks like me can buy a used FT for maybe 60-100-150K 10 years from now; just like folks do it today. But if the current owner are in it for today ... the they can sell 10 or so FT's for 1+ million dollar to rich and famous and have a great time doing it. Anyway I am glad they are doing good today and hope they be around for a long time.

Very interesting reason why a company should take a huge gamble today. I never considered that the company today should think about what will be sold used ten years from now. I am sure there will always be used Foretravels to purchase since they hold up very well.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #35 – October 15, 2013, 10:58:57 pm

I think George has a good point about Tiffin - their customer loyalty is very very strong and they are smart about their product line - EXCEPT for their top of the line coach the Zephyr which sells in extremely small numbers; it just does not offer that much more than the Allegro Bus which is priced much more reasonably - the Bus is probably the most formidable competitor to the Zephyr. That said, Tiffin is well positioned for long term survival but I know they want the respect that comes from offering a genuine top of the line coach.

Foretravel on the other hand is largely living off it's past - the build volume is just too small to sustain engineering costs, manufacturing facilities, etc. And all those coaches at FOT/MOT for upgrades, etc. (I've got one too) are from the era of build rates 10 times that of today's production. As those coaches age and continue to depreciate (and they will) the next owners of those coaches will not have the funds to put into something that old and cheap. Hey, don't shoot the messenger but those coaches will disappear over time and there is only one replacement for every ten that "retire".

Foretravel needs to find a partner for the future - and I think it is Tiffin. They need a top line coach in their product portfolio and Bob Tiffin probably knows they can't successfully crack the $500k barrier with their current lineup. Foretravel would enable them to leapfrog Entegra and American and Foretravel will survive and prosper thanks to the volume base from the Tiffin line.

Might not be the most popular post I've made lately, but you gotta think about it.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #36 – October 15, 2013, 11:17:58 pm

Quote from: amos.harrison – October 15, 2013, 08:29:48 pm

Are we approaching an era when older FT's start appreciating like classic cars?

The U225 cost $193,500 in 1994. That $193,500 is worth $305,365.72 in 2013 dollars. I don't think that comes close to a new Foretravel today!!! And I know what 1994 U225s are going for. A little appreciation might be nice if I were valuing mine for sale, but i am not.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #37 – October 15, 2013, 11:21:58 pm

Quote from: 2Escapees – October 15, 2013, 10:58:57 pm

Foretravel needs to find a partner for the future - and I think it is Tiffin. They need a top line coach in their product portfolio and Bob Tiffin probably knows they can't successfully crack the $500k barrier with their current lineup. Foretravel would enable them to leapfrog Entegra and American and Foretravel will survive and prosper thanks to the volume base from the Tiffin line.

Thing is that Bob tried to retire once already. He had to come back to keep things running. I don't see him taking on more, and sure don't see him selling or merging.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #38 – October 15, 2013, 11:22:12 pm

Greg Amys addressed this at the GV. Due to their high cost of FT custom chassis, they can't address the lower cost market on the FT Chassis. If they tried to make a FT coach on a Freightliner or similar chassis they would have to compete against Tiffin that has cost advantages in their materials (MUCH higher volumes) and Tiffin has a great deal of automation in their manufacturing, which would give not only a material cost advantage, but a labor cost advantage. Basically Greg said that moving downmarket would not be profitable.

FT will continue in the high end market, and try to develop/exploit other low volume, reasonable margin offshoots going forward.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #39 – October 16, 2013, 12:16:58 am

Tim, you are right - no way could Foretravel build a Phaeton or Allegro Bus at a competitive price without losing their shirt. Tiffin is a volume assembly line coach company and they crank them out very efficiently. They do build their own chassis (Powerglide) for the Breeze and the Bus but it is basically a raised rail chassis like Freightliner's but with some added features.

As BobC points out, Bob Tiffin has already established his legacy and is still on the job; probably until he leaves "feet first". His kids are running more and more of the daily operations areas but he is the face of the company and the one owners call for help. Nobody on their forum says much about the kids and their motivations.

The possibilities are interesting however.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #40 – October 16, 2013, 07:52:48 am

Quote from: 2Escapees – October 16, 2013, 12:16:58 am

Tim, you are right - no way could Foretravel build a Phaeton or Allegro Bus at a competitive price without losing their shirt. Tiffin is a volume assembly line coach company and they crank them out very efficiently. They do build their own chassis (Powerglide) for the Breeze and the Bus but it is basically a raised rail chassis like Freightliner's but with some added features.

As BobC points out, Bob Tiffin has already established his legacy and is still on the job; probably until he leaves "feet first". His kids are running more and more of the daily operations areas but he is the face of the company and the one owners call for help. Nobody on their forum says much about the kids and their motivations.

The possibilities are interesting however.

The idea of Foretravel trying to be like Tiffin would be very dangerous for the Foretravel company. As a financial backer to Monoco, the concept of "pumping out" many units to flood the market was the downfall of Monoco. When the economy tanked and the banks called for the loans made to Monoco, it placed a nail in the coffin for that company. With stock not sold and no market to sell the coaches to, the loans could not be payed and thus bankruptcy. While Tiffin, which is still a family run business, is heading down the same road with mass production. This economy can and will shortly tank again and this too could spell disaster for Tiffin and their inventory. To really understand the situation in the class A market you need to look at yearly production and delivery data. Foretravel is what I would call in protection mode and survival until and if this economy can improve. Lowering Foretravel Standards like using an inferior chassis so they can compete in the low end market is preposterous. Maybe for some, the new coaches are out of their reach financially and need to consider another brand.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #41 – October 16, 2013, 08:40:36 am

Quote from: anny – October 16, 2013, 07:52:48 am

Maybe for some, the new coaches are out of their reach financially and need to consider another brand.

The new coaches are also targeted towards a different end user than the previous generations. There are a number of folks on the forum who likely have several coach purchases in their RV future, but don't see some of the desired features of their current FTs in the new models (a couple of examples are, but not limited to, lower exterior height, interior cabinet storage, etc.) For them it has less to do with affordability and much to do with wanting what drew them to FT in the first place. With the company reinventing its product line it leaves this segment of owners struggling to figure out what their next coach will be.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #42 – October 16, 2013, 09:25:23 am

Quote from: Michelle – October 16, 2013, 08:40:36 am

The new coaches are also targeted towards a different end user than the previous generations. There are a number of folks on the forum who likely have several coach purchases in their RV future, but don't see some of the desired features of their current FTs in the new models (a couple of examples are, but not limited to, lower exterior height, interior cabinet storage, etc.) For them it has less to do with affordability and much to do with wanting what drew them to FT in the first place. With the company reinventing its product line it leaves this segment of owners struggling to figure out what their next coach will be.

So true and well said. However, as with anything you purchase, it does not mean the company you purchased it from needs to remain producing the same price point product. I surely wish those 8 track tape manufactures would keep or re-start making 8 tracks since in my 1970 antique Gremlin I have an 8 track tape player. Heck, I demand they continue making these tapes again, it is their obligation! Ha!

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #43 – October 16, 2013, 09:29:41 am

The only obligation that FOT has, besides making money, would be a moral one. That is, to keep running as long as they can to keep those dedicated employees working. The rest doesn't really matter except to a few Foretravel enthusiasts like us FoFums.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #44 – October 16, 2013, 09:33:28 am

Not to hijack the thread, but my Dad had a brand new Gremlin (What a name for a car...) Three speed on the flow, straight six up front, burgundy, two doors and a hatchback. Yup, 8 track too.

Gave it away to a friend when it was old, she wrecked it falling asleep at the wheel one night...she was fine though.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #45 – October 16, 2013, 10:46:59 am

The best result for Foretravel might be an owner like Tiffin who is already successful in the business and can see the value in a unique highline product. The advantage to Foretravel would be access to Tiffin's engineering and manufacturing resources which are funded by their higher volume products - something Foretravel lacks today. I would love to see what Foretravel could do with access to more resources.

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #46 – October 16, 2013, 12:28:22 pm

This thread has been very interesting reading for me. I agree that the newer coaches are a little different than the earlier ones. However, how many members of this forum could have afforded a new Foretravel in 2004 when the MSRP was between $355,000 and $555,000. And, considering inflation and the fact that Motorhome Specialist is offering a new IH45 for $799,000, that is approximately the same price range that was available in 2004. And, a 2014 37 foot Tiffin Motorhome has less features and value than my 2004 36 foot Foretravel. For instance, eight air bags, four wheel disc brakes, electric hose reels, etc. are still missing on Tiffins in 2014 except for the very high end models.
Larry

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #47 – October 16, 2013, 02:36:48 pm

There are so many intelligent folks are on this forum. All kinds of knowledge and experience ... current business owners or had run business, etc; there is enough combined experience to probably run a factory or the entire country.
What FT has ... they are sitting on a gold mine, question is do they realize it. IMO they can have such a great market share and kick everyone's tail while doing it ... if they wanted, but I think they don't need it and/or not hungry enough to do it.
This forum and following they have is enough of evidence to what they have ... maybe they will take advantage of it maybe they won't .... in any event it is all great for all of us for now, enjoy :-)

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #48 – October 16, 2013, 02:52:01 pm

This is very much a niche market. I liken it to either

1. Bake the most delicious wholesome locally grown organic ingredients deep dish 5 pound apple pies and only sell 10 a week to the most important restaurants in the area. Or,

2. Try be be Hostess bakers...and make 2 pound tasteless apple pies made from the bulk products sold by the masses and market these to the general public through supper market chains...or worse yet...Walmart.

No disrespect to Wally World...

Re: FT financial stability? (split from Re: FT IH-45 featured on Travel Channel's Extreme RV's)

Reply #49 – October 16, 2013, 03:22:46 pm

Quote from: Peter & Beth – October 16, 2013, 02:52:01 pm

This is very much a niche market. I liken it to either

1. Bake the most delicious wholesome locally grown organic ingredients deep dish 5 pound apple pies and only sell 10 a week to the most important restaurants in the area. Or,

2. Try be be Hostess bakers...and make 2 pound tasteless apple pies made from the bulk products sold by the masses and market these to the general public through supper market chains...or worse yet...Walmart.

No disrespect to Wally World...

Or :-) Bring back one of your most successful 80-90's model that you can sell it to more people as Ford did with Mustang.

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