Air Filter - Engine

Topic: Air Filter - Engine (Read 3048 times) previous topic - next topic

Air Filter - Engine

July 22, 2010, 12:09:16 pm

Since I have never seen my filter minder gauge move, I thought it might not be working.
So I pulled off the small diameter rubber hose at air cleaner and very light sucked by mouth on the hose
and low and behold the filter minder gauge moved right up,so it works,
it is just my air cleaner does not get dirty enough to cause a vacuum inside the filter.
I have read in a motorcade article
"The fact is most air filters are changed too frequently".
So I sent some photos to James Triana asking if this filter was considered dirty and replacing.

The recommendation from the engine manufacture would be to replace the filter if removed.
If I were working on the unit and saw a filter like this I would replace it.
At the filter canister make sure the brass elbow is not stopped up or plugged.
Make sure filter is not installed backwards, as I have seen this happen before.
If memory serves me correctly I think the minder runs around 10 – 12 inches of vacuum at normal operation and new filter.

So this filter looks dirty to me but the minder has a mind of its own.
Whats a person to do

More info on the Motorcade Article:
http://beamalarm.com/Documents/know_your_air_cleaner.htm

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #1 – July 22, 2010, 04:48:48 pm

The other reason for changing air filters (the operative one for most of us) is AGE.

These elements are made of paper and glue. According to the engineer at Wix with whom I had a lengthy discussion on this subject, the paper and glue do break down with age.

Recommendation-- replace every three years and buy new ones from places with fast turnover/new stock.

Brett Wolfe

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #2 – July 22, 2010, 06:25:15 pm

I am curious, as to how many miles are on that dirty filter.
Regards,

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #3 – July 22, 2010, 06:39:03 pm

Quote

I am curious, as to how many miles are on that dirty filter.

That filter was from a friends 2000 U270 coach,
I will ask him about the miles and date replaced.
He has never replaced the filter since he bought the coach.
But the previous owner kept great repair records.

Since the minder does not seem to move and appears to be working,
and that filter sure looked dirty to me.
It looks like I would have to visually inspect it to know if it needs changing & then I might as well replace it so not to get any dirt fall off in there.
I would not want to wait 3 years to check it.
When I was at the factory they replaced my air filter even though the minder did not indicate it.
Soooo I guess the minder is really not dependable as an indicator OR the filter could get much dirtier and be fine.
Is it worth the risk?

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #4 – July 22, 2010, 06:51:43 pm

Barry,

The air filter minder IS a good indicator. But the good news is that Foretravel did not skimp on the size (CFM) of the filters they fit as many others did. I have seen brand new coaches (happened to be Country Coaches) with air filter minder readings of 22" with under a thousand miles on them. BUT they had a smaller filter for their 400 HP than the filter in my 250 HP Foretravel.

So, yes, replace with high air filter minder readings OR every three years.

Brett

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #5 – July 22, 2010, 06:57:09 pm

Quote

So, yes, replace with high air filter minder readings OR every three years.

Thanks Brett,
So that I am clear.
If the minder was not indicating a change, you would be comfortable leaving the filters pictured below in.

Since I have not seen a filter that the minder says is dirty I have no reference.

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #6 – July 22, 2010, 07:16:46 pm

Barry,

No, I would have chickened out and replaced it given the looks of that one as well.

It would be interesting to know how old and how many miles are on it and if any of those miles were off-road (or to Alaska for example).

Brett Wolfe

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #7 – July 22, 2010, 09:33:38 pm

Quote

Also you can tap the filter lightly on the ground and shake a lot of dirt out, good for a quick improvement

After a little more research on Donaldsons Filer website I came up with this
http://www.donaldsonfilters.com.au/

Best Practice Filter Service

When performing a little self-maintenance on a sluggish vehicle, many a driver will pop open the air cleaner and pull out the filter element thinking a vigorous shake to rid the element of visible dirt will help. Should you be one of those folk who takes this a step further and give the filter a rap against the wheel, guard or ground - then STOP! This action can be the catalyst for major heartbreak.

Air filters designed for use in modern diesel engines actually work more effectively with a build up of dirt on the filter media. Suer that contradicts the belief that dirt an engines don't mix, but your truck's air intake system was engineered to work on the premise that a certain amount of dirt build-up is necessary on the filtration media which, in turn, attracts more dirt. So by shaking off the excess dirt you are actually preventing the filter from reaching its optimal working efficiency.

As for thumping a filter against any hard surface...a buckled, deformed or damaged filter will almost certainly result in contaminant getting through to your engine and that spells trouble. Even the simple act of popping open the air cleaner lid and removing the element exposes an engine to the unnecessary risk of contamination.

So when should you change out your air filter? It's easy-service air filters only by monitoring the restriction level. That means checking the restriction indicator on the dash or installing a manual indicator on the air cleaner housing. This is a small yet worthwhile investment.

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #8 – July 23, 2010, 06:13:09 am

I disagree with Brett. Now I know I'm it trouble! I always check the air filter indicator operation during engine service. But if it's operating correctly, and not reading a restriction, I wouldn't open up the filter housing. Every time you do it you run the risk of introducing dust into the engine. I've never heard of deterioration of air filters with time by Fleetguard, though there are certainly poorly made filters out there. I would never use an off-brand filter in any engine I owned. Just my two cents worth.

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #9 – July 23, 2010, 11:10:24 pm

I thought about sending Brett a private message on this, but on second thought I think everyone should read this.

We spent a couple of days with a Tiffin owner this week. He is an avid reader of the Tiffin Forum and of a Caterpillar Forum. During one of our conversations he said to me that the moderator of the Caterpillar Forum really knows his stuff. I asked my friend if the moderator's name is Brett Wolfe. "Yes, yes" he replied.

So Brett, I hope I didn't embarrass you, but I thought it was high praise. I am glad you are here to share your knowledge.

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #10 – July 23, 2010, 11:18:55 pm

( At the filter canister make sure the brass elbow is not stopped up or plugged .)

I had a similar problem.
After washing off the end cap with the BRASS Elbow ( it has a brass filter in it) my filter minder gauge stopped working.
I used air to blow the crud out of the brass elbow filter. This corrected the filter minder gauge reading problem.

Hope this helps your problem..

Bob H

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #11 – July 24, 2010, 12:15:55 am

Quote from: amos.harrison – July 23, 2010, 06:13:09 am

I disagree with Brett. Now I know I'm it trouble! I always check the air filter indicator operation during engine service. But if it's operating correctly, and not reading a restriction, I wouldn't open up the filter housing. Every time you do it you run the risk of introducing dust into the engine. I've never heard of deterioration of air filters with time by Fleetguard, though there are certainly poorly made filters out there. I would never use an off-brand filter in any engine I owned. Just my two cents worth.

Brett,

I AGREE-- I have never ever suggested opening and doing anything to an air filter other than replacing the filter element when it shows restriction or every three years.

And for anyone who does read restriction, RECORD THE RESTRICTION after installing a new filter. That will give you a base-line from which to work.

The other Brett

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #12 – July 24, 2010, 11:40:54 am

Quote from: amos.harrison – July 23, 2010, 06:13:09 am

I disagree with Brett. Now I know I'm it trouble! I always check the air filter indicator operation during engine service. But if it's operating correctly, and not reading a restriction, I wouldn't open up the filter housing. Every time you do it you run the risk of introducing dust into the engine. I've never heard of deterioration of air filters with time by Fleetguard, though there are certainly poorly made filters out there. I would never use an off-brand filter in any engine I owned. Just my two cents worth.

I have seen filters in other applications which have deteriorated (not Fleetguard) and started allowing dirty air into the engine. That is one of the nice points of the Filterminder. If you frequently read the restriction and have a base line to operate from, you can tell if the filter is properly working, or if it has deteriorated to the point where it is allowing raw air thru a hole in the filter. Quality filters do not normally get holes in them, but then quality control is not what it use to be.

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #13 – July 24, 2010, 03:41:34 pm

I really don't understand the filter minder on mine. It is a black plastic cylinder with a green ring around the middle and the top of it is rubberized with RESET on it. From where it is located I don't see how it does anything. I plan on changing the filter every third year regardless.

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #14 – July 24, 2010, 06:16:11 pm

After looking at the pictures, the filter definitely needs to be replaced. Must be a blockage in the filter minder somewhere like at the hose fitting. The other thing that is puzzling to me is that the dirt is on the outside of the filter. On my 96 U270 the big end goes into the canister first and the cover over the small end. The incoming air enters the big end. I know the air filter location was changed in later models, so maybe the air flow through the filter was changed as well. I reset the reminder occasionally just to see if it is working.

Jerry Whiteaker
96 U270 36'

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #15 – July 24, 2010, 06:24:06 pm

Quote from: Dwayne – July 24, 2010, 03:41:34 pm

I really don't understand the filter minder on mine. It is a black plastic cylinder with a green ring around the middle and the top of it is rubberized with RESET on it. From where it is located I don't see how it does anything. I plan on changing the filter every third year regardless.

Dwayne,

To get a better understanding of how the air filter minder works, take loose the end where it attaches to the air filter. Suck on it and watch the filter minder. You will see the gauge reading slowly go all the way to the top. Push the button on the end to reset to zero. Repeat until it makes sense.

Brett Wolfe

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #16 – July 28, 2010, 05:20:22 pm

How the Filterminder works: http://www.filterminder.com/hfmw_air.asp

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #17 – July 28, 2010, 09:01:46 pm

Pull off the small rubber hose at the air cleaner housing and suck on the hose with your mouth. It is surprising how little vacuum it takes to move the filter minder.

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #18 – August 10, 2010, 10:54:14 pm

Just had my 52000 mile check up at FT and was shocked to find that they had replaced my air filter, Shocked why, they had replaced last year 7000 miles ago. When I hit the roof and informed them they had just replaced it 7000 miles ago the said that they always check. Get this we do not check the filter minder as it may not work. They pull the filter and see if it show dirt on it if so they replace. They ran down the filter and brought it in and it had some dirt but I.m sure it was not dirty enough to replace as my 97 had 50000 miles and was replaced twice. The final straw is they offered to blow it off and put it back. All these actions run against what has been posted.

I have only had FT work on my coaches but I feel the level of their service is starting to go down. I had the transyne changed las year but the did not update the tag and by luck the were discussing this in front of me or they were about to service the transmission again.

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #19 – August 11, 2010, 10:55:55 am

There is no such thing as a 52000 mile (or any other mileage) check up. You decide what they should check and replace. You know your coach and your driving usage. Asking for a checkup is an open checkbook as they call the shots. They are not wrong to error on the conservative side. Besides it is up the individual service tech what he thinks should be changed, and every tech will do it differently.
See, it worked for transmission fluid change when you got involved.

Don't be mad at them for helping you keep your coach working. You did not ask them to minimize the cost and consult with you on what they find. Besides diesel engines love clean air as well as clean fuel, as it the only thing that makes them go.

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #20 – August 11, 2010, 04:35:17 pm

Coincidentally, I changed mine just today.

Initially, I was just planning on changing the oil/filter in generator and clean some of the dirt and grime off the engine in the rear.

While cleaning the engine, I noticed that the filter minder had crept up a tad. Although it wasn't enough to necessarily warrant a filter change, I didn't have any record of when the the filter had last been changed, and so I not only changed the filter, but cleaned out some caked dirt from the filter housing. I used both vacuum and damp cloths to get the interior of the filter housing looking like new.

At the very minimum, I now have a record of the most recent air filter change.

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #21 – August 11, 2010, 08:10:15 pm

I have had the filter minder show a marked increase in vacum after driving in a heavy rain but went back to normal next day. Believe I read this was ok and did not warrant a filter change. Correct me if I am wrong.

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #22 – August 12, 2010, 09:56:21 pm

Russell,
I just checked the Filter Minder website and verified what I remembered which is that the Filter Minder STAYS at the highest reading it sees, so to me that would say that there is something wrong with yours.

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #23 – August 12, 2010, 10:36:08 pm

John is correct. The air filter minder STORES the highest restriction it sees until it is reset by pushing the button on the bottom of the air filter minder. That resets it to zero. So it again starts recording and storing the highest vacuum it is exposed to.

Brett Wolfe

Re: Air Filter - Engine

Reply #24 – August 13, 2010, 08:51:56 am

To verify cleanliness of the air filter, accelerate at wide open throttle a couple times. Then check your filter minder. If you never accelerate that way, you don't tax the air filter.

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