Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

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Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

August 21, 2010, 12:58:10 pm

Does anyone have any experience with installing a Banks Stinger System on a Cumins B5.9, 230 hp engine. I have a 1993, U225 and am considering using the Stinger. Our travel buddies Jeff and Carol are considering upgrading from their U225 and I don't want them to run off and leave me in the dust. I also would like to tow a 4 door chevy pickup instead of our Subaru Outback.

I read in an old post that the additional torque and HP produced by the Stinger might be hard on my Allison MT643 transmission. Was this just a guess or has someone had problems? Both Banks and Allison don't seem concerned. We have 110,000 miles on the unit.

We have had problems with the engine running hot going up hills in hot weather but I resolved that by adding a front end radiator. However, the Banks tech tells me that the Stinger should reduce exhaust temps, improve mileage and increase horse power to near 300, all of which would be desirable.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #1 – August 21, 2010, 01:10:06 pm

All horsepower gains have some element of increased fuel delivery which will increase heat within engine and put an increased heat load on cooling system.
With new attention to how coach is driven down the road the heat gain can be managed.

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #2 – August 21, 2010, 03:25:13 pm

There certainly is logic to your point. With the Stinger Sys. they change the plate and increase the fuel flow to accommodate the larger turbo housing but the housing also increases the escape of the hot exhaust gases and increases torque and horse power so engine doesn't work as hard on the hills. Banks did not oversell their system but said I could expect a minimal drop in operating temperature. They said I should fix the heating issue before installing the Stinger.

Last week it was 105 degrees and I was running at 202F at 65mph. It got up to 215 on a long steep hill in the Ozarks. Cumins tell me my gauge is reading 10 degrees high. I don't believe them but 202 is acceptable either way.

Before the front radiator mod, I would not have even been driving the coach when it was that hot outside so temperature is no longer the issue. Now my primary concern is will I really get noticeable improvement in power and will it damage the tranny.

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #3 – August 21, 2010, 06:26:47 pm

Quote from: Kent Speers – August 21, 2010, 03:25:13 pm

Before the front radiator mod,

What did I miss? Front radiator mod???

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #4 – August 21, 2010, 07:42:48 pm

I didn't go into detail but my 93 has been running hot since it was new. Going back through the 1st owners repair records, he started asking Cumins to check things out in 1994. He put on 4 new thermostats, Cumins only answer, and I have put on two more. The Cumins dealer here in Oklahoma City could never find a reason the engine ran so hot except to replace thermostats and tell me that my gauge was showing 10 degrees hotter than it should. They did nothing but take my money, over $1,200. I have spent nearly $2,000 on cooling it down over the last three years which included pulling, cleaning the charge air cooler and rodding the radiator, new water pump, new gauges and sending unit, new cap, new belts and a Cumins dino test.

The engine temp normally read 187F. If the ambient temperature was over 80F it started to climb. If ambient was over 100F it ran 210F and would get as hot as 230F on hills that were not too big in size. After all, we are in Oklahoma. I took it to the factory in Nac, they just changed the antifreeze and suggested that they could pull and replace the radiator for $4000. I asked them and Cumins what the maximum running temperature was and got a different answers from everyone I talked to. The max temps ran from 220F up to 240F and the running range was from185F to 210Fso I never knew what was really the safe range. I inspected, repaired or replaced every part related to engine cooling to no avail.

One day this spring when it was really hot, I turned on the dash heater trying to get any additional cooling I could. The running temp dropped from 210 to 190 for about 5 minutes with the dash heater and house A/C running full blast off of the generator. After that revelation, it occurred to me that there was plenty of space in the front of the coach, behind the grill and AC evaporator to install an additional radiator. Since my problem only occurred when running at speed, there should be plenty of air flow to help cool the engine. What I didn't know was whether there was enough coolant flow through the heater hose to make a major difference and I didn't consider the heat given off by the A/C evaporator. The heater lines are only 3/4" ID and the evaporator runs about 190F on hot days.

I ordered a surplus aluminum NASCAR oil cooler/radiator (22" X 26") from EBay and installed it. They are very lite weight. It did some good, about 5 degrees, but the heat generated by the A/C Evaporator really hampers its effectiveness. I then installed a small, three row, vertical industrial radiator vertically on the passenger side of the Evaporator so it got only fresh cool air from the grill. I consider it an aftercooler. I get some cooling, about 20 degrees, from the larger aluminum radiator before it goes through the copper industrial radiator which drops it another 10 degrees. I now have enough extra cooling to run my coach in any temperature. Last week the outside temp on our thermometer was 107F and the engine heat gauge showed 202F and 65 mph.

I haven't gone through a winter yet, but I have a shutoff valve in the circuit if the mod affects the heater. In the circuit, I pulled the coolant for the radiators out before it reaches the heater valve and it returns after going through the heater core.

Well, that's the story. Bet you never thought it would be that long when you asked the question.

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #5 – August 21, 2010, 11:37:05 pm

Quote from: Kent Speers – August 21, 2010, 07:42:48 pm

Well, that's the story. Bet you never thought it would be that long when you asked the question.

Would not mind taking the bet. Have heard longer and stranger stories when it comes to diesels. Have been around them over 40 years now. But I am very happy my U225 does not have the same habit! Did you ever change out that temp gauge?

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #6 – August 22, 2010, 09:17:01 am

Yes, new temp gauge and sending unit. They changed nothing. I got exactly the same readings. I even attached the new gauge with a jumper wire to eliminate any interference from the chassis wiring. I have checked the temperature at the base of the sending unit with an IR gun. It is more than 10 degrees cooler than the dash gauge but I always thought I would rather err on the side of caution.

We typically travel with our best friends Jeff and Carol who also have a 1993, U225. Their coach has always run cooler than mine, but they had their charge air cooler replaced and I recently noticed that it has more air flow than mine does. That could be the reason. How hot does your 225 get in high ambient temps, particularly on up hill runs? Please give me some details if you know them.

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #7 – August 22, 2010, 09:27:20 am

Irrespective of your exact temperature gauge reading, the important issue is that it moves from that point (thermostatic controlled temperature).

When that happens, it means the thermostat is completely open (unless inoperative) and "other factors" such as air flow, size of radiator, GCW, ambient temperature, etc determine the engine temperature.

The less any engine operates outside/above thermostatic control, the happier I am.

Brett Wolfe

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #8 – August 22, 2010, 09:56:03 am

Brett,

Good to hear from you. I always appreciate your expertise. You may recall you gave me some advice on this issue a couple of years ago.

Now let me show my ignorance. Please explain. My thinking is that once it reaches 185, it has a 185 thermostat, it no longer is under thermostatic control. Can you explain your logic? Did I do right by adding the additional cooling with the front radiators?

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #9 – August 22, 2010, 10:05:33 am

It looks like things got a little off track. I seem to be obsessed with the heating issue.

Does anyone have experience with the Banks Stinger?

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #10 – August 22, 2010, 10:17:56 am

I did a Banks kit on my 93 C8.3 and loved it. My 280 had the MT647 trans and it had no issue with the added torque. You will be using the additional power and torque in 3rd or 4th gear uphill with a locked torque converter - and the trans should handle that with no problem.
The only concern with the mechanical engine kits is that its up to you to monitor EGT so that you don't fry your turbo. I would start cutting back at about 1150.
It will definitely wake up that 5.9.

Quote

On 8/22/2010 10:05 AM, Kent Speers wrote:
It looks like things got a little off track. I seem to be obsessed with the heating issue.

Does anyone have experience with the Banks Stinger?

Kent Speers
1993 U225

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #11 – August 22, 2010, 10:21:42 am

Dave,

Thanks! That's the kind of info I was looking for. Do you think it is reasonable that I could tow a full size pickup with this set up? Remember, my rig is only 22,000 lbs.

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #12 – August 22, 2010, 10:36:39 am

Kent we have had experience with Banks and other "kits" as well for the 5.9. If you do use the Banks system please put in a pyrometer (it measures the exhaust temps) so you dont fry the turbo bearings or cook your oil. We had several 5.9 in Dodge trucks since 1994 and in the beginning before the computer controlled 5.9 in the Dodges, we used a Banks kit to pull our dozers and trackhoes, approx pulled 36,000lb I realize we had more of a load than you will but we also installed one of their pyrometer gauges and watched the temps to stay within heat range. Also get a kit for torque and pulling power and not for "seat of the pants" tire burnout power...

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #13 – August 22, 2010, 11:27:08 am

Kerry,

Thanks for the info. The Banks kit for motorhomes comes with a manifold temp gauge. I trust that is a pyrometer.

If you pulled that kind of weight behind a pickup, is it your opinion that I can pull a full size pickup behind my U225?

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #14 – August 22, 2010, 12:58:57 pm

As long as your brakes and aux braking (both toad and exh brake) are good - and your hitch supports it, if you can get say 280 hp then you will have 28K at the accepted standard hp to weight ratio. Will you be outside the factory limits? Probably. But exceeding limits for towing is really dependent on those issues - hp/torque, brakes and hitch.
I'm 'squeaking' over the limit towing my Tahoe - I have a 5K hitch and a 5800 lb truck. I am using a 10K bar and cables and inspect often.

Quote

On 8/22/2010 10:21 AM, Kent Speers wrote:
Dave,

Thanks! That's the kind of info I was looking for. Do you think it is reasonable that I could tow a full size pickup with this set up? Remember, my rig is only 22,000 lbs.

Kent Speers
1993 U225

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #15 – August 22, 2010, 01:09:52 pm

Lets take a look at this possibility,,,
Start with 230 hp and go to 300 hp

I should take my 450 hp to about 600 hp

Why don't we all run out and take out ISM engines to 600 hp?

I love it when reasoning is overcome by desire.
As usual FWIW
Dave

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #16 – August 22, 2010, 03:11:29 pm

Kent, I had to out of neccessity pull 35K with my Dodge p/u's (tried to stay away from commercial DOT) finally had to go to a 18wheeler. Braking was my biggest problem most of my trailers had electric brakes. I could take an overpass at 65mph and buy the top be somewhere 50ish range and not be overboard on heat at the turbo. I monitored my temps before turbo and after, and each of those have a different "safe" range.
I pull my F250 4 door diesel truck with my U295 FT, we have a diesel tank with pump and toolbox full of tools and jacks in truck for motorhome or equipment. Braking is no problem since the motorhome is air disc brakes and Allison retard system. When we are in the mountains we don't fill the diesel tank in the truck and if need be my wife will drive the truck till we get on somewhat level ground.
I have a friend that has a U300 with a Detroit and 4spd Allison and he pulls a 8-passenger ford full size van...he has 6 kids though.
The tow rating on my U295 is 10k...what is the tow rating for your U225?

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #17 – August 22, 2010, 03:51:10 pm

Thanks to both Dave and Kerry,

My hitch is rated at 10,000 so I should be good on that point. I am currently pumping out 165hp at the back wheels. It is supposed to be a 230hp engine. The Banks kit is supposed to add 70hp which would put me a 300hp gross or 210hp at the wheel.

I am leaning toward one of the air brake systems for the toad. That way it should be exactly proportional to my coach. ANY THOUGHTS?

Before proceeding with any of this, I would also take the unit in for an inspection of the Allison and have a low rpm lock-up installed to help the exhaust brake. Right now I have a PAC brake but once the RPMs drop below 1400 the tranny slides into neutral so the PAC brake is not usable at low RPMs.

Kerry, how many miles were you getting out of your 5.9's pulling heavy loads like that. I have 107,000 miles on mine right now. I plan to travel about 20,000 per year once I go full time.

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #18 – August 22, 2010, 04:27:56 pm

Kent I put an average of 75,000miles on 3 Dodge trucks pulling those loads. 2 were manual engines and the last was computer controlled. NEVER had a problem with the 5.9 Cummins but the transmissions were another issue, in the last truck I changed to a better torque converter for lock-up.

I also am very preventative maintenance on my vehicles ie changing fluids and filters before the recommended intervals.

I currently don't have any added or extra braking for my toad vehicle, but with future towing in different states I'm sure eventually I will have too for their laws. Before you buy added braking for your toad you could try towing it first to see how well braking is...maybe at a shopping center after hours and try 1. just motorhome, 2. motorhome and subaru and 3. motorhome and chevy truck. Record the stopping distances.

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #19 – August 22, 2010, 04:35:05 pm

Thanks again Kerry. Right now I have no auxiliary braking on the SUB and I can't even tell whether it is back there or not. But it only weights 3300 pounds. I suspect a 5200 pound pickup will be substantially different behind a 22000 pound coach.

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #20 – August 23, 2010, 12:37:13 am

I have the M&G braking system and love it.

Quote

On 8/22/2010 3:51 PM, Kent Speers wrote:

Thanks to both Dave and Kerry,

My hitch is rated at 10,000 so I should be good on that point. I am currently pumping out 165hp at the back wheels. It is supposed to be a 230hp engine. The Banks kit is supposed to add 70hp which would put me a 300hp gross or 210hp at the wheel.

I am leaning toward one of the air brake systems for the toad. That way it should be exactly proportional to my coach. ANY THOUGHTS?

Before proceeding with any of this, I would also take the unit in for an inspection of the Allison and have a low rpm lock-up installed to help the exhaust brake. Right now I have a PAC brake but once the RPMs drop below 1400 the tranny slides into neutral so the PAC brake is not usable at low RPMs.

Kerry, how many miles were you getting out of your 5.9's pulling heavy loads like that. I have 107,000 miles on mine right now. I plan to travel about 20,000 per year once I go full time.

Kent Speers
1993 U225

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #21 – August 23, 2010, 12:55:54 pm

Quote from: Kent Speers – August 22, 2010, 09:56:03 am

Brett,

Good to hear from you. I always appreciate your expertise. You may recall you gave me some advice on this issue a couple of years ago.

Now let me show my ignorance. Please explain. My thinking is that once it reaches 185, it has a 185 thermostat, it no longer is under thermostatic control. Can you explain your logic? Did I do right by adding the additional cooling with the front radiators?

If the coolant temperature is within thermostatic control (i.e. the opening and closing of the thermostat keep the temperature at its operating temp-- sounds like 185 in your case) you will not see the gauge move.

But, once the heat load of the engine is such that the thermostat is fully open, the thermostat can do nothing else. That is why I say it is out of thermostatic control. So additional heat load will bring the coolant temperature to above thermostatic control-- i.e. overheating.

Note: With newer coaches and those with temperature controlled fans, you will see a little fluctuation, as the temperature at which the fans kick to high speed is purposely a little above that of the thermostats so HP drain is minimized.

Brett

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #22 – January 05, 2016, 09:48:48 pm

I know it is old topic but I wanted to see if Allison MT 643 (in 1994 U225) can handle extra power from Banks Stinger upgraded 5.9?
Using existing cooling system or beefer one?

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #23 – January 05, 2016, 11:30:32 pm

Quote from: jclark93 – January 05, 2016, 09:48:48 pm

I know it is old topic but I wanted to see if Allison MT 643 (in 1994 U225) can handle extra power from Banks Stinger upgraded 5.9?
Using existing cooling system or beefer one?

I have the 643 in my old foretravel and turned the pump up to around 250 HP that is the max that the 643 is rated for and torque of 640 lbs. I am not familiar with the 5.9 and what it would produce with the Banks Stinger check the numbers and see if it works

Re: Banks Stinger on Cumins 230hp

Reply #24 – January 06, 2016, 08:35:43 am

Quote from: jclark93 – January 05, 2016, 09:48:48 pm

I know it is old topic but I wanted to see if Allison MT 643 (in 1994 U225) can handle extra power from Banks Stinger upgraded 5.9?
Using existing cooling system or beefer one?

Send a PM to a forum member wa_desert_rat. He has a U225 with a 5.9 and a Banks system.

Also, Banks has a very good tech department that will analyze your specific needs and tell you what will work and what to expect.
Banks estimated that the Stinger would lower my operating temps rather than increase them. I never installed the Banks system because I bought my U300 but probably would have if I had kept my U225.

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