Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

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Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

October 05, 2010, 06:28:55 pm

I went to the storage facility this afternoon to bring the coach to get ready for the weekend outing then to Nac for surgery.

I started the generator and it ran for about a minute then shut off. It did this 3 times, so I quit trying. Then I realized that I had the main battery shutoff in the "off" position.

Question, would having the main battery power in the off position cause this symptom?

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #1 – October 05, 2010, 07:40:27 pm

The genset is a PowerTech 8 KW. I originally had the batteries connected but the main switch was in the off position. It started but would not stay running. I just now tried woth the battery switch in the "on" position, but the same issue remains. It must be a fuel delivery issue. I had the fuel pump replaced (Facet) last November during the annual maintenance. Since then, I haven't run the generator but for 1 hour.

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #2 – October 05, 2010, 08:57:20 pm

Try taking a gallon of diesel fuel and running a hose from the electric pump suction to it.
If it runs good, then replace the hose to the tank. If that hose has a crack and sucks air it won't run...

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #3 – October 05, 2010, 09:01:08 pm

Quote from: Dave Head – October 05, 2010, 08:57:20 pm

Try taking a gallon of diesel fuel and running a hose from the electric pump suction to it.
If it runs good, then replace the host to the tank. If that hose has a crack and sucks air it won't run...

Dave,
That's the first order of business tomorrow. I'm thinking that all the fuel delivery hoses & clamps need to be replaced after 13 years.

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #4 – October 05, 2010, 11:33:55 pm

Peter, did I understand you to say you're going to replace all your 13 year old hoses? How nice, thank you

For what it's worth, my recent generator problems re-visited. Not quite what you're experiencing. It would start, then die as soon as you let off the button. Turned out to be a bad oil pressure switch, won't let it run if the switch says there is no oil pressure. There is also the same setup on the temperature switch, won't let it run if it thinks it's hot. If your test with the fuel doesn't help, I'll be glad to give more details.

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #5 – October 06, 2010, 12:38:59 am

I have the 8 kw Isuzu (assume yours is the same.) I had a similar issue - would start and run for between 3 sec and 30 sec and then cut off as if shut off. As Dave said, the most likely cause is a cracked fuel hose sucking in air, but in my case, it turned out to be the control board. If you do the fuel line in the jug of fuel test, and it still does the same thing, I can help you with the diagnosis I did to test the oil and temp sensors and narrow it down to the board.

Incidentally, should your problem turn out to be the board, don't buy it from Power Tech (unless you like supporting them.) Got mine from partsfortechs.com for $208 vs Power Tech's price of $450. And I still have a spare fuel solenoid that the Power Tech guy was sure would fix my problem...

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #6 – October 06, 2010, 05:41:01 am

Quote from: Dave Head – October 05, 2010, 08:57:20 pm

Try taking a gallon of diesel fuel and running a hose from the electric pump suction to it.
If it runs good, then replace the hose to the tank. If that hose has a crack and sucks air it won't run...

I recently experienced cracks in my generator fuel hose. The way I discovered it was that the hose leaked fuel - about a gallon overnight - into a bucket.

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #7 – October 06, 2010, 08:43:21 am

Quote

Turned out to be a bad oil pressure switch, won't let it run if the switch says there is no oil pressure. There is also the same setup on the temperature switch, won't let it run if it thinks it's hot. I'll be glad to give more details.

Gayland,
In case someone has this issue in the future, How did you test the Temp & oil pressure switches?

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #8 – October 06, 2010, 10:22:26 am

Quote from: Dave Katsuki – October 06, 2010, 12:38:59 am

I have the 8 kw Isuzu (assume yours is the same.) I had a similar issue - would start and run for between 3 sec and 30 sec and then cut off as if shut off. As Dave said, the most likely cause is a cracked fuel hose sucking in air, but in my case, it turned out to be the control board. If you do the fuel line in the jug of fuel test, and it still does the same thing, I can help you with the diagnosis I did to test the oil and temp sensors and narrow it down to the board.

Incidentally, should your problem turn out to be the board, don't buy it from Power Tech (unless you like supporting them.) Got mine from partsfortechs.com for $208 vs Power Tech's price of $450. And I still have a spare fuel solenoid that the Power Tech guy was sure would fix my problem...

Dave,
When you had your genset issue, did you get the fault light to come on at the dashboard? On the genset itself there are no lights "on".

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #9 – October 06, 2010, 10:32:07 am

I didn't do it personally, so can only tell you an overview. The ultimate test was to jumper across the switch, and then it would run. The oil pressure switch is on the back side, and towards the front of the engine so was very difficult to get to, but I'd suspect there would be a way to do it at the control board.

The full rant - I first took it to the Powertech dealer in Fargo. First thing they do is collect $45 before they'll look at it. He did a couple of tests, said he'd have to call PT, but he was going on vacation now and would call be back. Several days later he called, said he'd finally go a hold of PT, and to bring it back in. Couple more tests and he threw up his hands and said that was all he knew to do. Mostly checking the control board stuff. So I took it to the local Kubota dealer. There I had 3 or 4 guys looking at it for an hour and a half (it was a slow day there). They too gave up, but didn't charge me anything. They sent me to the Thermo King dealer. They're the ones that finally figured out the oil pressure switch problem. They said it was an odd ball switch, not available locally, so they had to call PT. Unfortunately, it was 5 o'clock at PT, and the parts man was not about to stay over a few minutes so we'd have to call back. Anyway, finally got the part a week later ($18 shipping, no it was not special shipping). It still took 45 minutes to get it installed, I had Thermo King do it as I don't think I could have gotten into the tight quarters. It was all their little guy could do to get in there.

What the tech said about the switch that made it an odd ball, generally they're normally open, and this one was normally closed (or vice versa) I don't remember exactly.

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #10 – October 06, 2010, 10:58:14 am

The fuel hoses on my PowerTech 10K generator were cracked and the feed line was feeding air as well as diesel. There was never a pool of fuel under the coach overnight because the cracks were in a high spot. The genset would run for 2 to 30 minutes. Fuel hose used was 35 ft of 3/8 for the two lines going to the fuel tank and 2 foot of 5/16 for the short pieces on the genset itself. I bought 45 feet of hose and have 14 feet of spare hose. One of the 3/8 hoses is attached to the fuel tank at the top on the driver side which required removing the driverside bulkhead.

I determined that it was a fuel feed problem by running the genset from a bucket - it ran for several hours.

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #11 – October 06, 2010, 03:18:05 pm

Peter,

I never had any of the fault lights on at the generator, but the red fault light on the dash was on after the gen stopped. The run light on the gen panel came on but then went off.

I eliminated the oil pressure and temp sensors by either grounding the sensor wire (oil pressure) or disconnecting the sensor wire (hi temp) - the two sensors are different. First checked their behavior with a DVM to see what happened when the gen was in fueling/wait mode before start, and then starting/running.

Timing to get the oil pressure sensor to behave the way the board expects is: closed when initially fueling/waiting, and then open when cranking starts. High temp sensor wire is normally open and when I grounded it, the gen just cranked, board wouldn't let it start.

To verify the board failure, I jumped around the board by connecting the fuel wire to the run wire/terminal into the board, and the gen then would run for extended periods, but of course wouldn't stop on low oil pressure or hi temp, so I wasn't comfortable running it for any time that way.

Ordered a replacement board - DynaGen ES52 Control board - from www.partsfortechs.com. The board is apparently used on lots of other generator models/manufacturers, has a 5 year warranty. partsfortechs.com looks like a great site for lots of other parts & boards that we might need, too.

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #12 – October 06, 2010, 03:26:04 pm

Quote from: Dave Katsuki – October 06, 2010, 03:18:05 pm

Peter,

I never had any of the fault lights on at the generator, but the red fault light on the dash was on after the gen stopped. The run light on the gen panel came on but then went off.

I eliminated the oil pressure and temp sensors by either grounding the sensor wire (oil pressure) or disconnecting the sensor wire (hi temp) - the two sensors are different. First checked their behavior with a DVM to see what happened when the gen was in fueling/wait mode before start, and then starting/running.

Timing to get the oil pressure sensor to behave the way the board expects is: closed when initially fueling/waiting, and then open when cranking starts. High temp sensor wire is normally open and when I grounded it, the gen just cranked, board wouldn't let it start.

To verify the board failure, I jumped around the board by connecting the fuel wire to the run wire/terminal into the board, and the gen then would run for extended periods, but of course wouldn't stop on low oil pressure or hi temp, so I wasn't comfortable running it for any time that way.

Ordered a replacement board - DynaGen ES52 Control board - from www.partsfortechs.com. The board is apparently used on lots of other generator models/manufacturers, has a 5 year warranty. partsfortechs.com looks like a great site for lots of other parts & boards that we might need, too.

Dave,
Thanks a million. I'll take a crack at that, but I'm not all that comfortable doing it now as I'm rushing to get things around for the trip. I gotta say, I'm spent for the day after swapping the transfer switch. It ain't a piece of cake working with the 8 AWG wire in that area. But the good news is it's DONE!

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #13 – October 06, 2010, 09:46:38 pm

Dave,
When I went to the storage facility yesterday I connected all batteries, then started the genset and turned the boost switch on. The genset ran for about 3 minutes then stalled out. I waited a couple of minutes then started the genset and ran for about 10 seconds & stalled out. The third attempt same thing but only about 5 seconds. I quit trying.

Today I attempted to start, & doesn't even run for 5 seconds & the fault light is on at the dashboard.

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #14 – October 06, 2010, 10:24:18 pm

One other thing for those having these type problems. I had another symptom, at least I think it was. Before it died altogether, it would start/stop start/stop several times before it would finally keep running. Those problems have disappeared since I got the new oil pressure switch. FWIW!

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #15 – October 07, 2010, 02:53:53 pm

Quote

Ordered a replacement board - DynaGen ES52 Control board - from www.partsfortechs.com. The board is apparently used on lots of other generator models/manufacturers, has a 5 year warranty. partsfortechs.com looks like a great site for lots of other parts & boards that we might need, too.

Dave,
Have you installed the DynaGen ES52 board yet?

If you have installed, what dip switch settings did you use?

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #16 – October 07, 2010, 05:13:58 pm

Thanks Dave,

Saw it was 20 pages long and that was enough for me to go to the next topic....

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #17 – October 07, 2010, 05:21:26 pm

Quote from: Dave M – October 07, 2010, 05:07:40 pm

Peter,
I am going to try to enclose the ES52 Service Manual for all who want to get in over their head
Good luck
Dave

Dave,
Thanks...I bought the ES52 and it arrived today (just in case, and the price was right). I know what you mean. I'll be w/o a genset for a while, it seems. I think Dave Katsuki may have installed his, but I think he's one of those wiz types with a comfortable understanding of all things complicated...

Things are sort of complicated right now, so it may be some time before I can get to resolve this issue.

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #18 – October 07, 2010, 07:15:08 pm

A good friend of mine lives by the motto...If it's already broke how much more can you screw it up? Helps me do things I normally wouldn't think of doing..

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #19 – October 08, 2010, 02:19:32 am

Peter,

I installed mine a long time ago (Sept 09), and I don't remember the DIP settings, but if you have the manual, I recall that it is pretty good if a little general. If you're still having trouble, I can get the manual from the coach and reconstruct the settings. (We are currently house sitting for friends in the hills above Palo Alto, and the rig wouldn't even begin to get down the road to their house, so it's parked about 5 miles away.)

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #20 – October 08, 2010, 08:35:15 am

Quote from: Dave Katsuki – October 08, 2010, 02:19:32 am

I installed mine a long time ago (Sept 09), and I don't remember the DIP settings, but if you have the manual, I recall that it is pretty good if a little general. If you're still having trouble, I can get the manual from the coach and reconstruct the settings. (We are currently house sitting for friends in the hills above Palo Alto, and the rig wouldn't even begin to get down the road to their house, so it's parked about 5 miles away.)

Dave,
Thanks for the offer. I read the manual , and it may be above what I would be willing to undertake given I really don't have a place to work on it right now. I purchased the control module as a spare as I think it's a fuel delivery problem.

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #21 – October 11, 2010, 09:33:43 pm

Late last week, I was reading the post by Peter & Beth with the subject of Generator (Genset)starts but Cuts-Off (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=10887.0).

I thought that sounded similar to the diesel generator on our U270. When the Cummins tech checked out the engine last Wednesday, I asked him to also check out the diesel generator set on the coach. It was hard to start (cranked a long time before it started). Then when it was running, it sounded good. Then all of a sudden it died. This repeated several times. He made a comment that it might have lost its prime.

So today, I thought I would check the hose from the fuel tank to the diesel generator engine to see if the hose looked like it had any cracks. When I tried to start it this afternoon, it cranked for a period of time then started. Then it seemed to start dying. I did this 2 or 3 times. Then I thought I would move some of the fuel hoses around to see if that made any difference. The first hose I checked was the one in the picture (in the previous post) that runs from the Facet component to the inlet to the fuel filter as it looked damp in places. When the engine sounded like it was about to die, I gently moved this hose around some. Sometimes the engine sounded like it was about to die, then I moved the hose a bit. Then it would sound better. This happened multiple times. Then on occasion I would see a small amount of fuel spray out close to the end of the hose that connects to the component on our unit that is located where the Facet component is located in the picture in the above referenced post. (Where the Facet component is located in the picture in the above referenced post, our unit has a small square component with wiring running out of the right end of the small square component. This component in our unit does not show a name like Facet or anything else. I presume it does the same function as the Facet component, but it is square and only around 1 inch or so long, not a round cylinder like is shown in the above referenced picture.

So it appears I need to replace this tubing. It has a plastic covering on it and it appears it does not have screw type hose clamps on it. It looks like the hose clamps are crimped on.

I then checked the hose that runs from the outlet of the fuel filter up to the metal tubing toward the top of the engine as I thought it looked damp where the tubing runs through the bracket that mounts to the engine block. I believe this hose is leaking slightly somewhere in that area also.

I have checked the manuals that came with our U270 and so far, I have not found a manual for the diesel generator set. Our diesel generator set is a Power Tech 8KW diesel unit (Model IDL8000) with an Isuzu diesel engine.

Since I cannot find a manual for this diesel generator set, I have the following questions:
1. Does anyone know where I might obtain a manual for this diesel generator set?
2. Does anyone know what size and what spec hose I should get to replace each hose? It looks like each hose is approx. 13 inches long.
3. I presume I can use a conventional screw type hose clamp on each end of each of these hoses to clamp the ends tightly to the hose barbs. Is this correct? (Since it looks like the hose clamps currently on the ends of both hoses are crimped on, I presume I will not be able to re-use them.)

Also, I would like to change the oil in the diesel generator unit. Per the Foretravel manual, it appears I need the following filters:
1. Air filter-Fleetguard AF1658K
2. Oil filter-Fleetguard LF3462
3. Fuel filter-?? (The Foretravel manual shows CD7901, but does not list a manufacturer name.)

Does any one know what oil I should use? Is it the same oil used in the Cummins diesel engine? (Rotella 15W40)
Apparently per the Foretravel manual, 4.75 US quarts is the quantity of oil required. Is this correct?

Thank you very much.

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #22 – October 11, 2010, 09:53:51 pm

Quote

Also, I would like to change the oil in the diesel generator unit. Per the Foretravel manual, it appears I need the following filters:
1. Air filter-Fleetguard AF1658K
2. Oil filter-Fleetguard LF3462
3. Fuel filter-?? (The Foretravel manual shows CD7901, but does not list a manufacturer name.)

Here is all the filter numbers for the generator
http://beamalarm.com/Documents/belts-filters-hoses/power-tech-idl-8000-8kw-1997.htm

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #23 – October 12, 2010, 01:09:19 pm

About 2 years ago I had a similar problem: Sometimes it would start and run normally. Most of the time it would start, run about a second, and then quit. All my troubleshooting (replacing filters, etc.) was fruitless. At the Pomona FMCA convention I talked to the Powertech rep and he said it sounded like the auto-start circuit board. If I recall correctly it was behind the panel forward of the co-pilot seat, about 2x2x1". He replaced it and it's worked flawlessly ever since.

Re: Generator (Genset) starts but then Shuts off

Reply #24 – October 13, 2010, 12:37:03 pm

Well, the verdict is in. The generator works fine with a field source of fuel, but there is air in the lines when connected to the fuel tank source. Cummins' Cincinnati dealer has it, 'cause with my bad back, bum wrist, etc, there's no way I can tackle the fuel hose swap. It's only money...

So I guess I'll be bruised after this bill, but at least I'll have a working generator which is critical for me to get the coach started after being in storage.

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