AIR LEAKS!!!

Topic: AIR LEAKS!!! (Read 2412 times) previous topic - next topic

AIR LEAKS!!!

March 28, 2011, 07:26:25 am

Dear FT Folks

I have been chasing air leaks for weeks. The newest I have found is at the HWH solenoid leveling manifold where the solenoids attaches to the manifold. Can anyone tell me how to change the o-ring on the solenoid where it connects to the manifold? What holds the solenoid on to the manifold? Can this be done without removing the manifold from under the MH? Is there a rebuild kit for this? Is there a norm for how often the air compressor should be cycling? Thank you for any help. Karl

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #1 – March 28, 2011, 09:23:03 am

Quote from: Karl Brenneman – March 28, 2011, 07:26:25 am

I have been chasing air leaks for weeks. The newest I have found is at the HWH solenoid leveling manifold where the solenoids attaches to the manifold. Can anyone tell me how to change the o-ring on the solenoid where it connects to the manifold? What holds the solenoid on to the manifold? Can this be done without removing the manifold from under the MH? Is there a rebuild kit for this?

I think this is one of the things FT fixed for us a few years ago (o-ring leaks in the six-pack?). Steve says he thinks they dropped the manifolds for easier access and he thinks the solenoids just screw into the manifold. (And of course they used frame blocks and wheel chocks.)

At the time, there was a rebuild kit consisting of at least the o-rings. IIRC, we had several leaks and it was only recently (at that time) that HWH had put together a kit of o-rings rather than making you replace the entire thing. I don't have the service records here at the house so I can't look up the p/n for the kit

Michelle

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #2 – March 28, 2011, 09:40:08 am

I replaced the manifold within the past 8 weeks. I spoke with several people at HWH. No one ever mentioned a kit to replace o-rings. If such a kit exists I was not made aware of it. But the new manifold works quite nicely.

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #3 – March 28, 2011, 09:55:32 am

Quote from: George Stoltz – March 28, 2011, 09:40:08 am

I replaced the manifold within the past 8 weeks. I spoke with several people at HWH. No one ever mentioned a kit to replace o-rings. If such a kit exists I was not made aware of it.

It could be a "special combo" put together for FT, not a standard HWH p/n. We had this done back between 2005-2007 and the work was done at FT. I remember them mentioning the "kit" was fairly new at the time.

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #4 – March 28, 2011, 05:16:00 pm

Hi George,
Did you replace the HWH "six pack" because of air leaks, or was there a problem with a solenoid?
Thanks,
Raymond

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #5 – March 28, 2011, 05:31:10 pm

Raymond,
I have no idea what the six pack is.

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #6 – March 28, 2011, 06:12:44 pm

George, look under your coach at the front and you will see one. It is a grouping of 6 selenoids.

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #7 – March 28, 2011, 06:20:37 pm

I did not replace the six pack, but we replaced quite few other components.

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #8 – March 28, 2011, 11:02:42 pm

I think that O-ring kit p/n is RAP6554, based on invoice I have from 2009 work done at FOT.

Mike Spitz
2003 u295

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #9 – March 28, 2011, 11:12:07 pm

Quote from: michaelespitz – March 28, 2011, 11:02:42 pm

I think that O-ring kit p/n is RAP6554, based on invoice I have from 2009 work done at FOT.

A quick Google search of that p/n shows you're probably right

www.hwhcorp.com/mr053729.pdf

Karma to you!

Michelle

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #10 – May 15, 2011, 11:32:13 am

I finally found the right rear slow air leak that has been a problem for over a year. It is the "lower" (physical location middle) solenoid for that side on the rear six pack. I was able to hear air leaking out of the exhaust port using just the tube part of a cheap mechanics stethoscope. I had previously used a soap solution on that port, but didn't see any bubbles. Have found out that with even a leak detector soap, it may take several attempts to get a film across the port that will blow bubbles. Removed the solenoid and disassembled it hoping it would be just some dirt or O-ring. Seems to be the plastic seat on the piston or armature that retracts when the coil is energized. Tried boiling just that part in water for 15 minutes to soften the plastic and maybe reform it. That reduced the leak, but didn't stop it. I can get a new valve from HWH for $98.88 + shipping. May do that tomorrow after I talk to FT and HWH. I can get an O-ring kit, but I don't know if individual parts are available.

One should be careful to not tighten the valve too much as it is brass and aluminum. The coil and cover are not shown as I did not unplug the electrical connection.

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #11 – May 15, 2011, 11:41:47 am

Howdy Jerry,
Thanks for this.Great photos....
Later, Dave Abel

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #12 – May 15, 2011, 12:06:21 pm

Quote from: Jerry Whiteaker – May 15, 2011, 11:32:13 am

I finally found the right rear slow air leak that has been a problem for over a year. It is the "lower" (physical location middle) solenoid for that side on the rear six pack.

Seems to be the plastic seat on the piston or armature that retracts when the coil is energized. Tried boiling just that part in water for 15 minutes to soften the plastic and maybe reform it. That reduced the leak, but didn't stop it. I can get a new valve from HWH for $98.88 + shipping. May do that tomorrow after I talk to FT and HWH. I can get an O-ring kit, but I don't know if individual parts are available.

Jerry,

Per the HWH parts list on Barry's site http://www.beamalarm.com/foretravel-links/PDF/HWH%20parts%20manual.pdf it looks like replacement coils for the solenoids are available (possibly p/n RAP90568) but it's not obvious how much of the solenoid "internals" are considered part of the coil.

Interesting finding. We are at FOT where Bob Irland found several leaks in our rear six packs (we have two because of the tag). We're waiting to see how the system acts over the weekend to see if we still have the weird leveling problem that was symptomatic of air bleeding through.

Michelle

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #13 – May 15, 2011, 12:16:24 pm

Jerry made a very interesting point. You don't get bubbles if the liquid doesn't form a film over the leak. Kids party bubbles are formulated with film forming additives and may be a very good alternative to soapy water.

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #14 – May 15, 2011, 12:33:30 pm

Forgot to mention that I can no longer hear the leak, but that it will blow a bubble if I work at getting a film across the port. Also the middle size o-ring has a square cross-section. My picture is not very good of the blue plastic which mates with the cone shaped seat, but it has more than one circular groove from the seat.

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #15 – May 19, 2011, 06:21:26 pm

I think I have fixed my leaking 6 pack solenoid valve. All the air bags/springs stayed fully inflated last night with the system turned off and system pressure only dropped 10 psi in 18 hours. Didn't buy a new valve, used my woodturning lathe to smooth the blue plastic seal by removing about 1/64 to 1/32" of material. My turning tool was a square cut hardened steel nail held with vise grip pliers. The end of the nail was ground to form a scraping type cutting tool. One could do this also on a machine lathe. I did replace the 2 o-rings with new ones found at a plumbing supply. I hope this is my last post on this subject, but if it starts leaking again I will let you know.

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #16 – May 21, 2011, 09:49:13 am

Quote from: Jerry Whiteaker – May 19, 2011, 06:21:26 pm

I did replace the 2 o-rings with new ones found at a plumbing supply. I hope this is my last post on this subject

Jerry,

Nope - this can't be your last post

Do you have the specs for those two o-rings? We could order the RAP6554 kit but maybe Ace Hardware has the right size in stock locally.

Thanks,

Michelle

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #17 – May 21, 2011, 12:37:03 pm

I don't know much about the leveling system since my coach is "HWH-Free". But if you're looking for a possibly better o-ring (since it sounds like they fail too often) this might help:
1. Find the size of the o-ring in the attached chart. (I doubt HWH had custom o-ring sizes made) This will be a 3 digit number.
2. You can now go to any supplier (local hardware, catalog, etc) to find your o-ring by material and this size.
3. Alternatively in catalogs like McMaster McMaster-Carr there's such a large selection that you might want to try a different material.
Buna-N and neoprene are the most common and cheapest (probably what you get a local hardward store). Viton is much better. Then there are a bunch of other materials with various pluses/minues -I've seen silicone used in engine applications. I would try to figure out why the existing o-rings are failing: cracking?, getting soft due to oil exposure? Getting hard due to temperature? and try to pick a new material that will perform better in that area. This chart might help in choosing:McMaster-Carr
You might also need to choose a hardness - I would try to match to an original (unused) o-ring. You'll probably have to buy a much larger quantity than you need but the cost will still be low unless you choose a real exotic material.
Another thing that helps is using an o-ring lubricant when installing - this will help it seat properly and prevent installation tearing since it looks like the valve body theads onto the manifold (i.e. twisting).
One more important thing: the mating surface must be kept scratch free. Aluminum and brass are soft so be careful when handling the parts.
Bear in mind that you'll you'll be experimenting to some degree but it's the only alternative if you don't like what the OEM keeps feeding you.
Hope this helps.

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #18 – May 21, 2011, 01:41:54 pm

Quote from: JohnFitz – May 21, 2011, 12:37:03 pm

I don't know much about the leveling system since my coach is "HWH-Free". But if you're looking for a possibly better o-ring (since it sounds like they fail too often) this might help:
1. Find the size of the o-ring in the attached chart. (I doubt HWH had custom o-ring sizes made)

Thanks, John.

We're just looking for the specs (number) on the OEM o-rings. Would rather have the new ones in-hand before starting the job and if we could find the right ones locally over the weekend it beats waiting until Monday to call FOT parts and then waiting the day or so for UPS/USPS to deliver the box.

I couldn't find that info on the HWH site and hope maybe Jerry has the ID/OD/wall thickness/material from his recent rebuild.

You had to go and remind me of the pain of maintaining o-ring surfaces

I spent many years in thin films research and had to maintain my own vacuum deposition/etch systems. Nothing gets you sympathy like dragging the helium leak checker down the hallway with that dejected look on your face

Michelle

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #19 – May 21, 2011, 06:59:42 pm

Quote from: Steve & Michelle – May 21, 2011, 09:49:13 am

Do you have the specs for those two o-rings? We could order the RAP6554 kit but maybe Ace Hardware has the right size in stock locally.

No I don't, they had a chart so that you could match the o-ring to a number and get it out of a drawer with that number. I think I paid $1.50 for 4. Looked the same (black) but may not be the same as the old one. They lasted 15 years and didn't leak as far as I could tell. I think I will go back and get some more. Want some?

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #20 – May 21, 2011, 07:54:01 pm

John,

I just boosted your Karma score because of your very helpful post. Well done!

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Reply #21 – May 09, 2012, 09:09:35 pm

Steve & Michelle,

I found O rings at an Ace hardware store, They are both 1/16 wall O rings, # 15 (.691OD) and # 28 (1.504OD).
I used a little silcone grease on them.
They matched the ones in the HWH kit.
JD.

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #22 – May 10, 2012, 12:29:36 pm

When my coach is in storage the driver's side would drop about 2 inches front and rear. The top air pressure gauge would drop almost overnight. When at the Mid-South I noticed the drop so I took it to Foretravel on Tuesday for service and they replaced the o rings in these things you are talking about (solenoid valves). The pressure was still at 90 on the gauges when I cked yesterday afternoon. They also found the hot wire to the small compressor loose. Also my crystals which assorb mositure was white so they replaced with new so blue again (on the small compressor).
DAN

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #23 – May 10, 2012, 04:27:13 pm

Dan,
FYI, those desiccant crystals can easily be regenerated when they turn white or pink. Just remove the glass bowl they are held in, pour the desiccant beads in a oven proof dish and heat in the oven at 250 for about 30 min and they will be back to their brilliant blue color and ready to pour back into the bowl and reattached to you air system. Be careful not to over heat and they should be fine.

Bob Dale
03 320

Re: AIR LEAKS!!!

Reply #24 – May 10, 2012, 04:35:08 pm

Quote from: Bob Dale – May 10, 2012, 04:27:13 pm

Dan,
FYI, those desiccant crystals can easily be regenerated when they turn white or pink.

You can also buy the desiccant in bulk and bag your own portions for a fraction of the price.

Desiccant option for the HWH system

Michelle

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