Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

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Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

June 01, 2011, 01:07:05 pm

Last weekend, our dash solenoid went intermittent. Our gauges and AC fan would shut off when we slowed, and then recover when we accelerated! I got real lucky, and had the intermittent problem happen again, at home, not moving, with a test meter in my hand. The problem is the dash solenoid - the one that gives the power to the (you might guess) the gauges, a/c fan and etc. Consistent power for the hot, and consistent power to the trigger, no power at the output.

I reviewed the past posts on this subject, but they left me with a couple of questions, both important because we will be on the road again in a couple of days. I have ordered a 200 AMP solenoid, and I have a 60 amp, both continuous duty. No one seems to stock continuous duty solenoids around here.

1. Is dash supply solenoid the one that requires the 200 AMP Cole Hershee?

2. If so, would you install the 60 amp and keep dash power usage to minimum, until the 200 AMP is available, or jumper the dead solenoid with a fat jumper wire when starting and driving, until the 200 AMP arrives? Or a better idea?

oldMattB

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #1 – June 01, 2011, 02:20:58 pm

First, I suspect you are talking about the ignition solenoid-- turning on the ignition key "triggers" this solenoid to close (make contact between two large lugs). If so there are some critical things like Allison ECM that are powered by this solenoid-- basically all 12 VDC items that work only when the key is on.

I would not use a jumper under there-- just too easy for one to jump off while driving and create a dead short-- could lead to fire and certainly would shut down all circuits supplied by the solenoid.

The safe way to do a temporary work around is to label all the wires on one large lug of the solenoid. Then move then, ADDING them to the wires on the other large lug. You have effectively bypassed the solenoid. Be sure to remove them when you stop or all those circuits will remain hot.

It is possible that not using large-draw things like the Dash HVAC fan that a 60 amp solenoid will work short term.

Brett

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #2 – June 01, 2011, 03:27:11 pm

The solenoid is under the dash panel directly in front of the steering wheel.

Good point you made about the jumper. I think there are too many lugs to attach on one side. I think there were nine lugs on the two terminals. We will be gone for well over a week, with several destinations, fuel stops, meals, etc. so connecting and disconnecting would be a bit impractical.

Maybe the 200 AMP will arrive in time...

oldMattB

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #3 – June 01, 2011, 03:38:16 pm

Matt,

I have also marked the wires (actually just different color zip ties) from both large lugs and used a bolt to connect all the wires-- did this on our boat as we had no access to parts.

Brett

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #4 – June 01, 2011, 08:54:02 pm

Hi Matt,
I think you need part # 24143- BX from Cole Hersee. I think others can verify this.

Raymond

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #5 – June 01, 2011, 09:42:07 pm

Thanks Brett and Raymond!

I have ordered the #24143 200 AMP, but I really doubt I will see it before we leave. I installed the one I had, which was actually an 80 AMP. Sometimes I really wish for smaller hands - it is pretty tight in there.

The coach started nicely, I turned some stuff on, and checked the solenoid for any heating. It got slightly warm, from the magnetic coil I suppose, and did not heat any more. The old one, before it failed completely, was too hot to touch. After I removed it, I opened it up and one of the contacts was rusty-looking, with a lot of carbon around it. I will shoot the new one with my infrared gun once in a while to make sure it does not start heating up, and will replace it with the 200 AMP when I can.

oldMattB

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #6 – August 08, 2011, 12:48:53 pm

Would this Cole Hersee solenoid cause the whole dash to die at times, even when just idling? Just started to happen to me. All the dash gauges except air pressure and one of the other ones die, and the ac fan quits. And with in a couple minutes, sometimes much faster, start working again.

And if that is it, doesn't someone make a solid state "solenoid" replacement if I remember correctly? Would solid state be better?

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #7 – August 08, 2011, 12:58:16 pm

Yes, if all things that only work with the ignition on are not working, the ignition solenoid is the likely culprit.

A decade ago, I upgraded to an electronic switch: Bluesea 9012 250-amp ignition solenoid.

Solenoid Switch L-Series 12-24V - PN 9012 - Blue Sea Systems

Brett

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #8 – August 08, 2011, 01:00:20 pm

Pat, the answer to your question is yes. From what I saw today, if the solenoid opens it would kill all of the gauges except air pressure. I just got through messing with my dash solenoid due to low voltage readings on the dash volt meter. To test it I checked the incoming voltage and the outgoing voltage. There was about 1.2 volts difference. I thought it might be something on the dash side drawing too much voltage so I disconnected all of the red wires from the passenger side of the solenoid and again checked the voltage throughput with no load. It too was 1.2 volts low so resistance in the solenoid itself is pulling down the voltage. I ordered a new solenoid from FOT for $35.

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #9 – August 08, 2011, 01:07:45 pm

This started the other day when I was driving over to get state safety inspection. The whole time I was there, we could not get it to happen. And it was fine all the way home. I started it up yesterday and it started doing it again.

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #10 – August 08, 2011, 02:49:04 pm

Heed Brett's sage advice;
I had several electrical problems early on in our coach's life.

Eventually, moving the alternator remote sense termination to the chassis (START) battery positive terminal cured the alternator, battery and isolator issues.

Finally, changing the Boost and Ignition solenoids to the Blue Sea 9012 solenoids cured our solenoid problems.

Under warranty, FOT had changed the BOOST solenoid twice (along with many other parts, including 2 alternators, 2 sets of batteries and an isolator) and the dash IGNITION solenoid (both Cole Hersee) once, but the solenoids kept failing (dash instruments intermittent and erroneous readings, especially dash voltage reading low and water temperature reading intermittently high at the same time, headlights fading and dash fan speed erratic, etc.).
After warranty, 8 or 9 years ago I followed Brett's advice and changed out both solenoids to the Blue Sea 9012 hermetically sealed, marine solenoids. Mine are rated at 250 amps continuous and they are still available, but Blue Sea no longer makes them. The new ones are 450 continuous rated, same package, weight and several other ratings.......1Million cycles, .130 Amp holding current, 2000 Amp inrush current, etc.), so the internals may be the same, just changed the inrush (now 1500 Amp) and short, intermediate and longer term "cranking"ratings. I don't know.

Detailed Specifications for Solenoid Switch L-Series 12-24V - PN 9012 - Blue Sea
At any rate, GOOGLE "best price Blue Sea 9012" and you'll have a number of places to choose from at less than $160 ea., maybe even better.
I've had nary a hiccup with these solenoids since following Brett's advice.
Neal

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #11 – August 08, 2011, 04:07:51 pm

Just checked on the Cole Hersee 200 Amp Contractor #24143, claimed price of $40.73, List $90.00.
Is this price about right ?

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #12 – August 08, 2011, 05:31:58 pm

Found one at Inverter Service Company in White House, Tn for $142.00 and free shipping. Thanks Brett and Neil for the heads up on this. Was thinking solid state would be better.

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #13 – August 08, 2011, 05:32:51 pm

Quote from: Dave M – August 08, 2011, 04:07:51 pm

Just checked on the Cole Hersee 200 Amp Contractor #24143, claimed price of $40.73, List $90.00.
Is this price about right ?

Yep, from what I saw.

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #14 – August 08, 2011, 08:00:06 pm

Quote from: PatC – August 08, 2011, 05:31:58 pm

Found one at Inverter Service Company in White House, Tn for $142.00 and free shipping. Thanks Brett and Neil for the heads up on this. Was thinking solid state would be better.

Yup, probably a lot better but this one lasted 18 years. If the new Cole Hersee goes bad any time soon I will pop for the solid state also.

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #15 – August 08, 2011, 10:45:49 pm

Quote from: Kent Speers – August 08, 2011, 08:00:06 pm

Quote from: PatC – August 08, 2011, 05:31:58 pm
Found one at Inverter Service Company in White House, Tn for $142.00 and free shipping. Thanks Brett and Neil for the heads up on this. Was thinking solid state would be better.

Yup, probably a lot better but this one lasted 18 years. If the new Cole Hersee goes bad any time soon I will pop for the solid state also.

I was all set to give up and order the Cole Hersee when I came across the Blue Sea 9012 for the $142.96, and I was still hesitating figuring $16 shipping. But when I found the shipping was free, I was hooked. Every place else wanted $162, and up to over $200, plus shipping. The way I see things, somebody wanted me to have that Blue Sea 9012 Solenoid Switch for very good reasons. I may be slow, but I'm not dumb.

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #16 – August 09, 2011, 08:00:39 am

I found a replacement 9012 from Rebirth Auto in St. Pete Fl. for $115.00 and change, the funny thing is there was an alternate PN next to it, a Tyco EV200 that I found on EBay for $69.00, I will have to check further to see if they are the are the same control, they look identical.

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #17 – August 09, 2011, 11:00:59 am

Quote from: Bill Willett – August 09, 2011, 08:00:39 am

I found a replacement 9012 from Rebirth Auto in St. Pete Fl. for $115.00 and change, the funny thing is there was an alternate PN next to it, a Tyco EV200 that I found on EBay for $69.00, I will have to check further to see if they are the are the same control, they look identical.

I didn't compare it side by side, but here are the specs for the Tyco EV200: http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/ev200.pdf and here are the specs for the Blue Sea 9012L-Series Solenoid Switch with Coil Economizer 12/24V DC: Detailed Specifications for Solenoid Switch L-Series 12-24V - PN 9012 - Blue Sea.

One difference I noted: The Blue Sea is SPST-NO, while the Tyco is SPST-NO-DM. Now I don't know if that makes any difference or not. The DM stands for "Double-Make" meaning to power two circuits at the same time that are normally isolated from each other. Seems like that part would not make a difference.

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #18 – February 26, 2012, 11:32:13 pm

Quote from: PatC – August 09, 2011, 11:00:59 am

I didn't compare it side by side, but here are the specs for the Tyco EV200: http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/ev200.pdf and here are the specs for the Blue Sea 9012L-Series Solenoid Switch with Coil Economizer 12/24V DC: Detailed Specifications for Solenoid Switch L-Series 12-24V - PN 9012 - Blue Sea.

One difference I noted: The Blue Sea is SPST-NO, while the Tyco is SPST-NO-DM. Now I don't know if that makes any difference or not. The DM stands for "Double-Make" meaning to power two circuits at the same time that are normally isolated from each other. Seems like that part would not make a difference.

Does anyone know if the Kilovac EV200 Series Contactor, Tyco EV200AAANA is an equivalent substitute for the Blue Sea 9012 device?

Thank you very much.

Morris

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #19 – February 27, 2012, 11:35:56 pm

I also wonder about the differences between Tyco & BlueSea.

Tyco probably makes BlueSea's relay. BlueSea may only sell relays with a few of the many, many options Tyco offers on Tyco branded relays, which include a second set of contacts that can be used to show when relay is closed.

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #20 – February 28, 2012, 12:23:10 am

Quote from: Barry & Cindy – February 27, 2012, 11:35:56 pm

I also wonder about the differences between Tyco & BlueSea.

Tyco probably makes BlueSea's relay. BlueSea may only sell relays with a few of the many, many options Tyco offers on Tyco branded relays, which include a second set of contacts that can be used to show when relay is closed.

I tried to compare the specs for the Blue Sea contactor with the Tyco contactor specs. But unfortunately electrical specs are NOT my strong point and I was not able to do a direct comparison.

I did send an email to Rebirth Auto asking them if the Tyco EV200 is equivalent in all aspects to the Blue Sea 9012 contactor. I will have to wait and see if I get any response from them. I will be happy to post any response I get from them here.

If the Tyco EV200 is truly equivalent in all aspects to the Blue Sea 9012 contactor, it will be good news since the Tyco EV200 contactor is available on eBay at a significant less cost than the Blue Sea ($115.43 at Rebirth Auto) 9012.

If anyone else knows if the Tyco EV200 is a true equivalent in all aspects for the Blue Sea 9012, please let us know.

Thank you.

Morris

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #21 – February 28, 2012, 09:13:09 pm

Last night I sent a message to the Rebirth Auto in St. Petersburg. Here is their response (start reading at the bottom and read upward):

You should be fine with the either the EV200 or the Blue Sea item.

On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Morris W. <mutiger1947@yahoo.com> wrote:
> We have a Foretravel motor home and it uses a Cole Hersee 24143-BX 200Amp solenoid for various dash gauges and other things to provide power when the ignition key is turned on. Several of the people have had the Cole Hersee solenoid fail when on a trip. Some of them have had the Cole Hersee solenoid fail more than one time.
>
> A few of the people have replaced the Cole Hersee solenoid with the Blue Sea 9012 solenoid and have not had any failure since the replacement and in some cases several years ago. So the feeling is that the Blue Sea 9012 will last much longer than the Cole Hersee unit.
>
> While researching sources for the Blue Sea solenoid, another person found your organization's web site to have the lowest cost for the Blue Sea 9012 ($115.43). But the web page also lists a reference to the Tyco EV200 solenoid. We were thinking this might indicate the Tyco EV200 is equivalent to the Blue Sea 9012 solenoid. If so, we wanted to research purchase options for it as well.
>
> I printed out the spec sheet for the Tyco EV200 and tried to compare the specs to the specs for the Blue Sea 9012. However, since electrical is not my strong point I was not able to determine if they have the same specs.
>
> I greatly appreciate your assistance in this.
>
> Morris
>
> ________________________________
> From: Sebastien Bourgeois <info@rebirthauto.com>
> To: Morris W.
> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 3:52 PM
>
> Subject: Re: Contact Us Submitted
>
> Morris,
> Why don't you tell me what you're trying to do.
>
> On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 4:45 PM, Morris W. wrote:
>> No, I have not. I did not think Blue Sea would want to make any comments concerning the Tyco EV200 since they are competitors.
>>
>> I thought your organization might know since you sell the Blue Sea unit and appear to list the Tyco EV200 as an equivalent unit. Am I correct in presuming your web page shows the Tyco EV200 as being an equivalent unit to the Blue Sea 9012?
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Morris
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Sebastien Bourgeois <info@rebirthauto.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 3:15 PM
>> Subject: Re: Contact Us Submitted
>>
>> Have you contacted Blue Sea about this?
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 8:21 PM, wrote:
>>> Contact Name: Morris
>>> Comments or Questions: In your listing for the Blue Sea #9012 Contactor 12VDC Coil 500A, it appears to indicate the Tyco EV200 is equivalent to the Blue Sea 9012.
>>>
>>> Blue Sea #9012 Contactor 12VDC Coil 500A (Tyco EV200)

>>>
>>> Is the Tyco EV200 equal to and an equal substitute for the Blue Sea 9012 contactor?
>>>
>>> Are there any aspects of the Tyco EV200 that do not equal or exceed the Blue Sea 9012 contactor?
>>>
>>> Thank you very much.
>>>
>>> Morris

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #22 – March 16, 2012, 01:12:36 pm

I communicated with Tyco to ask them if all technical specifications/features of the Tyco EV200AAANA equal or exceed the technical specifications/features of the Blue Sea 9012. In addition, I asked about installation information for the Tyco EV200AAANA device. Here is their response. You will have to start reading my original inquiry at the bottom of this email string.

From: "Alldredge, Earle" <earle.alldredge@te.com>
To:
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 11:42 AM
Subject: RE: Product Information Feedback
yup.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Morris
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 9:42 AM
To: Alldredge, Earle
Subject: Re: Product Information Feedback

Hello Mr. Alldredge,

If I am understanding your response correctly, the Tyco EV200AAANA is identical in all respects to the Blue Sea 9012 device and Blue Sea merely places their private label on this product for US sales. Am I understanding correctly?

Thank you VERY MUCH!! I greatly appreciate your response.

Morris
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Alldredge, Earle" <earle.alldredge@te.com>
To:
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 11:29 AM
Subject: FW: Product Information Feedback
The products are the same. BS private labels the product from us.

You are correct on installation below.

Earle Alldredge
Product Manager
TE Connectivity
Kilovac
550 Linden Ave
Carpinteria, CA 93013
805-220-2055
earle.alldredge@te.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: webmaster
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2012 9:26 AM
To: Alldredge, Earle
Subject: Product Information Feedback

The following information was sent to earle.alldredge@te.com:
Name = Morris
City = Norman
StateCountry = Oklahoma/USA
ZIP = 73072
Comments = I would like to know if the technical specifications/features for the Tyco Kilovac Czonka Relay P/N EV200AAANA meet or exceed all the technical specifications/features for the Blue Sea 9012. Plus I would like to obtain installation requirements. Are there any specifications/features for the Tyco Kilovac Czonka Relay P/N EV200AAANA that do NOT meet or exceed those of the Blue Sea 9012? If so, which specs/features for the Tyco Kilovac Czonka Relay P/N EV200AAANA do not meet the specs/features for the Blue Sea 9012 and what are the values for each device? Is the Tyco unit a direct suitable substitute for the Blue Sea 9012 unit in an application where the ignition switch activates the relay to apply power to many other items? Here is a link to the Blue Sea 9012 specifications/features literature: Solenoid Switch L-Series 12-24V - PN 9012 - Blue Sea Systems

Also, regarding installation requirements, does:
1. the small black wire go to ground and small red to signal source such as ignition?
2. the +A1 go to constant hot from the chassis battery and -A2 to those circuits hot when the ignition is on? Thank you very much. Morris

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #23 – March 16, 2012, 02:48:36 pm

The below link shows that the Tyco & Blue sea are one and the same. However, the cycles on the Tyco is 50,000 whereas the duty cycles on the Blue Sea is 1,000,000

Blue Sea #9012 Contactor 12VDC Coil 500A (Tyco EV200)

Peter

Re: Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues

Reply #24 – March 16, 2012, 03:37:46 pm

Quote from: Peter & Beth – March 16, 2012, 02:48:36 pm

The below link shows that the Tyco & Blue sea are one and the same. However, the cycles on the Tyco is 50,000 whereas the duty cycles on the Blue Sea is 1,000,000

Blue Sea #9012 Contactor 12VDC Coil 500A (Tyco EV200)

Peter

Per the Tyco EV200 data sheet (see response 17) shows the following:

Mechanical Life Cycles 1 million

It also gives some specs pertaining to Electrical Load Life Ratings for Typical EV Applications. I wish I was smart enough to understand what the data sheet is saying in this part of the table.

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