The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

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The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

October 25, 2011, 09:14:20 pm

Had just merged with traffic on my way home. Suddenly had no power, coasted to a stop on shoulder. Gauges were all dead, including the tack, but the engine was still running and the transmission shifter was live, showed the 6 - 1 thing. I shut off key, engine died (of course) turned key back on, no gauge or transmission lights. Turned key off and on again and everything was back to normal. Started up and drove home (60 miles).

I did a tranny diagnostic check when I got home, got the following 3 readings: O L, - -, and 5 0 (this 0 being a number).

Any ideas?

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #1 – October 25, 2011, 10:23:08 pm

Would start at the connections (hot and ground) for the engine batteries, isolator, ignition solenoid. Use test light (good) or digital meter (better). If you can't find the problem right away, take the electrical schematic and have it blown up to blueprint size. Will be MUCH easier to read.

Bad/intermittent ground fault could also cause transmission codes.

Hope this gets you started. Others may have had this happen.

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #2 – October 25, 2011, 11:36:07 pm

Ignition relays on bottom of circuit breaker panel in front of copilot. Sometimes there are two relays that power the breakers that are hot with ignition key. With meter some breaker buss bars may be dead when they should be hot with ignition key on.

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #3 – October 26, 2011, 10:57:34 am

Thanks for the reply's. I'm going to make a couple of assumptions. 1. the transmission isn't the culprit. 2. Intermittent problem is going to be difficult to find.

BUT, would the fact that turning the key off and on "fixed" it, would we more inclined to think it was relays getting reset?

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #4 – October 26, 2011, 11:48:19 am

Gayland,

But, since the transmission shift pad stayed "live" that would rule out the ignition switch and ignition solenoid UNLESS the voltage drop across the solenoid (from burned points) was sufficient to still power the transmission ECU, but not sufficient to power other functions.

I would start by wiring a digital voltmeter from the "only when ignition on" large lug of the ignition solenoid to ground and checking voltage when this occurs.

And, as always, verify that all connections, particularly ground connections are tight and clean.

Brett

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #5 – October 26, 2011, 07:38:15 pm

Quote from: Gayland Baasch – October 25, 2011, 09:14:20 pm

Had just merged with traffic on my way home. Suddenly had no power, coasted to a stop on shoulder. Gauges were all dead, including the tack, but the engine was still running and the transmission shifter was live, showed the 6 - 1 thing. I shut off key, engine died (of course) turned key back on, no gauge or transmission lights. Turned key off and on again and everything was back to normal. Started up and drove home (60 miles).

I did a tranny diagnostic check when I got home, got the following 3 readings: O L, - -, and 5 0 (this 0 being a number).

Any ideas?

Per the Allison Shift Selector Code manual lists your code when "Checking" Fluid levels as a Fluid Level Fault Description Engine speed too low

Give me a call if you have any questions 410-877-4816

Tony

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #6 – October 26, 2011, 11:51:27 pm

Tony - I've been having internet problems tonight so haven't been able to look for the codes yet. I did the diagnostic check like you said, got the code 1221, which isn't any of those you had gone through. Could you look it up please. It only came up with the one.

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #7 – October 27, 2011, 12:07:25 am

When my ECU failed I contacted Transmission Instruments (easy to find on the internet). I think Brett posted about him. He told me that my generation of ECU (maybe yours too) is notorious for having the internal power supply fail which can manifest in many ways. I think I actually had a code for ECU failure and the alarm wouldn't stop but it never actually stopped working though Allison told me that it would shift into the next lowest gear and lock until the coach was powered down then it wouldn't start again. They wanted to sell me a new one for several thousand dollars. Transmission Instruments had me send him the ECU and control panel, he replaced the power supply, tested it after heating and cooling it to extremes and sent it back. He said that if it fixed the problem...send him $300. Best money and process on a reapair since I've owned this coach. It did fix the problem. I had been getting a code for turbine speed sensor off and on causing the transmission to stay in 1st gear until it heated up (which it did with or without the code and alarm). That wasn't a cheap repair as the module had to be dropped to get to the sensor.

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #8 – October 27, 2011, 12:24:12 pm

I discovered I'd transposed the code #'s, should have been 2112, which is a throttle position sensor failed, low. What ever that means!!! Anyway for now, I'm going to stick with the assumption that it's a ground or weak relay problem with the 12 volt system somewhere.

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #9 – October 27, 2011, 02:24:27 pm

Quote from: Gayland Baasch – October 27, 2011, 12:24:12 pm

I discovered I'd transposed the code #'s, should have been 2112, which is a throttle position sensor failed, low. What ever that means!!! Anyway for now, I'm going to stick with the assumption that it's a ground or weak relay problem with the 12 volt system somewhere.

Now that you have the correct code I can direct you to the Transmission code manual.
Allison Transmission Codes Manual

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #10 – October 29, 2011, 08:53:30 pm

Your problem is probably the ignition switch solenoid and can be caused by the pitting of the contacts or just having it fail (windings, corrosion, etc) due to age. I suggest that you make up a jumper wire with two alligator clips that will fit adequately clip to the nuts on your ignition switch solenoid. This will allow you to bypass the solenoid and get power through to the necessary components when you encounter the problem again. I am still carrying my jumper wire even though I replaced the solenoid.

The failure of the ignition switch solenoid can be caused by the pitting of the contacts or just having it fail (windings, corrosion, etc) due to age. It would be a good idea to purchase a good quality continuous duty solenoid and replace your existing one and not worry about it again.

I had mine fail at a traffic signal. Not fun.

FWIW,
Regards,

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #11 – October 29, 2011, 10:32:49 pm

And here it is: Cole Hersee 24143 for about $50. Best to have a couple handy as the boost solenoid is the same. Continuous duty with silver contacts. Most truck stops should have it but NAPA can get it in a day but will cost $10 more. Photo below. Note: Cole Hersee has replaced the 24143 with a new solenoid, the 24213. See at: Solenoids & Relays | Steel & Phenolic Body Solenoids | Continuous Duty, SPST |
The 24213 has silver tungsten carbide contacts (better), but is electrically identical.

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #12 – October 29, 2011, 11:13:01 pm

Thanks, I will definitely do the replacement. I'm also going to check more on the throttle position code I got to find out if it can cause similar symptoms.

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #13 – October 29, 2011, 11:58:37 pm

Quote from: Gayland Baasch – October 29, 2011, 11:13:01 pm

Thanks, I will definitely do the replacement. I'm also going to check more on the throttle position code I got to find out if it can cause similar symptoms.

My only concern in trying to duplicate the problem without changing the solenoid is doing it with current flowing and having an interruption that may cause a momentary voltage spike that the transmission computer will not like. A spike may possibly have caused the throttle position code to show up (or not) as well as the other codes. Should also check to see if the solenoid is getting a good ground at the both the solenoid and the other end of the grounding wire where it goes to the chassis.

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #14 – October 30, 2011, 11:20:57 am

2 solenoid's ordered from RyderFleetProducts, $90.63 including shipping. I won't be using the coach anymore this year, unless we have another month of nice weather. Not likely here in ND.

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #15 – March 12, 2018, 09:59:50 pm

OK my turn in the barrel. Drove from Ajo to Tombstone and as is my normal mode of operation did not turn the coach of until I got to the campground. Everything was normal all day. Parked the coach and turned off the engine. Thought I'd back up a couple feet but the shifter pad would not light up. I can start the coach with the boost switch on but still no light on the Allison shifter. Ideas?

Roland

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #16 – March 12, 2018, 10:10:47 pm

Roland,

Scratching my head - got to be something electrical that changed or failed. Doing a Google search - will add links as I find them:

http://www.transmissioninstruments.com/troubleshooting.html

allison trans shift selector has blank display - Topic

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #17 – March 12, 2018, 11:22:10 pm

Just a WAG, but have you checked the chassis battery connections and/or unplug and replug the connector to the shift pad.

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #18 – March 12, 2018, 11:30:24 pm

Roland,

In my Google search, I keep seeing reference to a "fuse on the power supply lead" to the ECU. But I can't figure out where the trans ECU on our coach gets it's power! I've looked at both of my 12V wiring diagrams, and I don't see anything about the trans ECU.

Still searching...

Apparently a lot of SOB diesel coaches have a thing called the VIM (Vehicle Interface Module) and that's where the power fuse is for the Allison transmission ECU. I've never seen anything like that on my coach.

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #19 – March 13, 2018, 12:09:58 am

I don't know...I'm stumped.

You could try calling John Kopalek at Transmission Instruments tomorrow morning - see what he says. He rebuilt my shift pad and ECU 3 years ago when I was bit with the "snake eyes" malfunction. Been working great ever since.

Transmission Instruments Contact Information

Or try getting hold of Triana at FOT (good luck with that).

Sorry I can't be more help.

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #20 – March 13, 2018, 01:10:08 am

Early pads were not sealed well.

Only thing I would be doing is to be removing and replacing the connectors at each end. 10 times was what John told me.

My only input. Wiggle the wires in essence

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #21 – March 13, 2018, 07:03:40 am

Is the salesman switch on?

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #22 – March 13, 2018, 07:35:35 am

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – March 12, 2018, 11:30:24 pm

Roland,

In my Google search, I keep seeing reference to a "fuse on the power supply lead" to the ECU. But I can't figure out where the trans ECU on our coach gets it's power! I've looked at both of my 12V wiring diagrams, and I don't see anything about the trans ECU.

Apparently a lot of coaches have a thing called the VIM (Vehicle Interface Module) and that's where the power fuse is for the ECU. I've never seen anything like that on my coach.

Chuck,
Here is a link to pics. as to where it is on the M-11 engines. Some 8.3s are close to this same location. This is in the wire loom right where the engine and trans wiring split. Cummins M11 ECM Fuses

Mike

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #23 – March 13, 2018, 07:40:56 am

Roland,

Still same problem this morning, or did it "cure itself" overnight?

Why did you need your boost switch on (last night) when you tried to restart your engine? After driving all day, your engine batteries should have been at 100%. Does everything else work on your dash when you turn ignition switch on (with boost switch off)?

Very low voltage from start batteries might cause problems with the trans shift pad?

Re: The dreaded DAL (Dead Along Road)

Reply #24 – March 13, 2018, 07:46:56 am

Quote from: Pamela & Mike – March 13, 2018, 07:35:35 am

Here is a link to pics. as to where it is on the M-11 engines. Some 8.3s are close to this same location.

Thanks Mike. Since Roland's (and my) engine are pure mechanical and don't have a engine ECU, I'm not sure if they would bear any similarity to the electronic engines. I always kinda "assumed" that our Allison trans ECU was powered directly off the ignition solenoid, but now I don't know, cuz it doesn't show up on my wiring diagram.

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