Resonator and muffler replacement

Topic: Resonator and muffler replacement (Read 12582 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #150 – June 17, 2012, 09:16:15 am

I've actually bought both the Walker resonator and the Aero 5050XL. I don't necessarily buy the hype of the Aero - but the sizing appears to fit better for my available room and distance from the AC condenser. and fan. Whichever one doesn't get used I will sell.

Any book on turbocharging will tell you that decreasing the back pressure results in quicker spoolup and efficiency.

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #151 – June 17, 2012, 09:22:57 am

I usually get a big laugh out of the NEW thinking, mainly rag reports on new miracle things like resonators, with results aimed at Aero sales, now add the vacuum feature, that is a new thought, aimed at sales again, gee if things worked as reported by the rags, we would all have 3000 hp engines getting over 400 mpg. Seems to be a disconnect somewhere between facts and reports.
Anyone remember the magnet on a gasoline fuel line that gave you 15% better mileage?
My big laugh is that my entire life has been from the gear head side, meaning trying different setups, experimenting and learning what works and what does not.
I find Pierce has the clear pix too.
As usual, you have to do what gives you the warm fuzzy

If it takes a smaller exhaust pipe and/or a Aero unit, go for it.
Cheers & FWIW
Dave M

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #152 – June 17, 2012, 10:01:23 am

If it's creating a vacuum inside a pressurized line it's truly creating something from nothing. Perhaps if it had venturis with outside air makeup it could do it, otherwise vacuum? Nyaah.

Marketing magic.

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #153 – June 17, 2012, 11:03:21 am

Now after you have all changed over to a resonator the next thing is to add the Banks Stinger. That does make a big difference on power. It was on the coach when I bought it but was obviously not working up to potential due to that leak (holes) in the CAC I found then fixed. I have up to 34lbs of boost pressure, and THAT gives a lot of kick when needed. I remember last year heading south and all of a sudden I thought half the engine had fallen off. Turns out the power to Banks had gone as there was a break in the 12v wire for module. Once repaired all was well again. I had not driven this coach without it running so did not know what it was like without.

John H

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #154 – June 17, 2012, 11:06:00 am

Chuck,
Right on w/ the venturi. Only reasonable way to produce a lower pressure (vacuum) w/o consuming more energy than produced.

FWIW

John

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #155 – June 17, 2012, 11:30:08 am

RE: Dave's Anyone remember the magnet on a gasoline fuel line that gave you 15% better mileage?

Dave, you mean the magnet does not work? Doesn't it also increase mileage by magnet attraction to the vehicle in front?

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #156 – June 17, 2012, 12:11:52 pm

Quote from: John Haygarth – June 17, 2012, 11:03:21 am

Now after you have all changed over to a resonator the next thing is to add the Banks Stinger. That does make a big difference on power. It was on the coach when I bought it but was obviously not working up to potential due to that leak (holes) in the CAC I found then fixed. I have up to 34lbs of boost pressure, and THAT gives a lot of kick when needed.
John H

I've thought about the stinger kit on my 300 Cummins and have a general question about it. Exactly what is it? Does it include a larger turbo or wastegate? I understand the pyro and boost gauge. Ol' Cheap Chuck thinking about a diy stinger kit....

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #157 – June 17, 2012, 01:17:46 pm

Hi Barry, Yup, loved the magnet idea, as far as I know it kept the compus pointing the way somewhere.

One point I need to correct in my comment about the feeling like 200 hp with the ISM500 upgrade, actually it is only 50 hp increase, but the 100 ft lb torque is what you really feel, that does feel like a bunch of kick in the butt effect.

Cheers
Dave M

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #158 – June 17, 2012, 02:16:30 pm

It is possible to create a lower pressure area within the flow inside a pipe. Slower moving gasses or liquid clings to the inside diameter of the pipe and in effect lessens the working diameter of that pipe. With the use of an expansion chamber and nozzles like the inside of an aero resonator the high velocity and low velocity gases can be brought together and the flow restrictions within the pipe can be lessend. With a 350 h.p. diesel it seams to me that the aero design would work best on a smaller diameter 4" system with not as much gain on a 5". Also I think the aero should be installed after any bends in the system with only straight pipe after it. In flow restriction Each 90 bend in a 5" system is equal to about 100" of straight pipe. Gam

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #159 – June 17, 2012, 07:34:27 pm

Quote from: gam – June 17, 2012, 02:16:30 pm

It is possible to create a lower pressure area within the flow inside a pipe. Slower moving gasses or liquid clings to the inside diameter of the pipe and in effect lessens the working diameter of that pipe

Sure, you can have high and low pressure areas inside concentric pipes but these differentials are relative to each other and cancel out upon convergence. It's a long shot to call this a vacuum.

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #160 – June 17, 2012, 07:45:07 pm

Is it then just a pressure differential? Gam

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #161 – June 17, 2012, 11:21:48 pm

Ok, here's how I see it. The only way of making a scavenging effect that actually helps pull exhaust from the engine is to have a tuned exhaust of exact length and volume, the calculation of which is far beyond me. What we're trying to accomplish here, though, is to provide the maximum pressure drop across the air pump-turbo. This calls for minimal restriction which is achieved, as you noted, by minimal bends and maximum pipe size with no choke points. The resonator efficiency may well be enhanced by being dual chambered but it does not create vacuum and at best is reducing friction for a couple feet of pipe, a miniscule advangage.

I haven't done the resonator thing yet, I want to hear one first. If I do it, will attempt to use the largest pipe feasible and one long sweeping bend, possibly flex from turbo to resonator. I've been told the rough surface of the flex will cancel out any advantage of eliminating the short radius bends but this stuff can be counter-intuitive...like vortex generators on aircraft wings and dimples on golf balls.

Sorry to sidetrack the discussion. I love this stuff.

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #162 – June 17, 2012, 11:34:58 pm

Chuck,

The scavenging effect only works on non-turbo engines. All the calculations go out the window once you put a turbo on, just have the maximum pressure drop possible on the discharge side with no formulas, tuning necessary.

Pierce

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #163 – June 17, 2012, 11:59:01 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – June 17, 2012, 11:34:58 pm

Chuck,

The scavenging effect only works on non-turbo engines.

Pierce

Of course don't know what l was thinking there.

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #164 – June 18, 2012, 12:33:39 am

So what you need to do is change the turbo to a model that gets more boost (pressure) at say, 1200 rpm instead of 1400 rpm. Since it spins up sooner, it will build too much pressure and destroy the engine so you install a waste gate, another word for a relief valve. As the pressure builds to a harmful level, the waste gate opens and diverts the excess overboard. So, now it pulls like a mule a couple of hundred rpm lower and you select how much boost your engine will stand when you buy the waste gate. If you don't drive too many miles per year, why not replace the single turbo with a pair plus intercoolers like boats do? You now have a whole team of mules off the line and can't keep tread on the rear tires. The term "hill" or "grade" no longer have any meaning. Naturally, the TBO is a lot shorter.

Pierce

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #165 – June 18, 2012, 01:03:12 am

chuck Great responce. I haven't done the resonator thing yet eathor. When I do it will be 5" ,so I may not use the aero. But then again the aero is straght through ,with no packing inside, and it's all SS , and it will look good under there, so maybe. Years ago when I was into drag raceing, we fabricated our collectors long and took a hacksaw to the strip to adj them.But that was on a 392 with 6 stromberg 97s. A try as you go thing. Gam

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #166 – June 18, 2012, 02:41:49 am

PLEASE don't tell me that Mickey Thompson lied when I bought his Super Scavenger headers and put them on my 66 Shelby GT350 way back when!

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #167 – June 18, 2012, 06:44:04 am

Pierce,
When I installed the new bypass turbo, at idle the discharge is like a leaf blower vs the normal stock turbo which has a very reduced air flow at idle,
WAS not aware of it until the guys at Xtreme commented on it while the coach was driven into the shop, blew all the dust away from that corner.

Dave M

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #168 – June 18, 2012, 10:47:48 am

Lon,

Mickey Thompson headers work super on your normally aspirated (non-turbo) Mustang. Adding a turbo changes almost all the rules especially in a spark ignition (gasoline) engine. The Corvair almost, well fairly close, got it right. The aluminum Olds with turbo in 1962 ran into a lot of problems with high under the hood temps that caused the gasoline to boil and vapor lock when you turned them off. Hard to start after that.

Dave,

Would have liked to see it blow the dust. Bet it really added a lot of mules to the low end!

My 930 has a long turbo lag. VW bugs are as fast across intersections. If you never kept your foot to the floor, you would never dream about the split personality. After it gathers about 2500 rpm, the boost gauge moves from zero to one atmosphere in about a second and Clark Kent pulls his shirt off. Racing against Mustangs, Corvettes, I liked to do a 35 mph rolling start in second gear with my left foot on the brake and right foot well down on the gas. Would build boost and then off the brake and petal to the metal to 94 mph in second gear. (Is a four speed.)

Years ago, I made the mistake of choosing off a superbike. Gone like a squeezed watermelon seed. I even had one beat me with a passenger on board. Guess it's the old power to weight ratio.

Pierce

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #169 – June 18, 2012, 11:51:58 am

A friend just bought a 1994 non-FT coach for resale. It had, I think a Cummins 8.3. The previous owner paid big bux to have the old, rusted-out muffler with what appeared to be a regular automotive muffler. Friend would press the accelerator and the boost gauge would peg, and it died in traffic a couple of times. Removed the muffler and it seems fine.

It had 3-inch inlet and outlet and looked like this. I don't know a lot about diesel exhaust systems, but I know it looked real wrong.

Matt B

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #170 – June 18, 2012, 01:25:06 pm

Quote from: oldmattb – June 18, 2012, 11:51:58 am

A friend just bought a 1994 non-FT coach for resale. It had, I think a Cummins 8.3. The previous owner paid big bux to have the old, rusted-out muffler with what appeared to be a regular automotive muffler. Friend would press the accelerator and the boost gauge would peg, and it died in traffic a couple of times. Removed the muffler and it seems fine.

It had 3-inch inlet and outlet and looked like this. I don't know a lot about diesel exhaust systems, but I know it looked real wrong.

Matt B

Should have an inlet and outlet of either 4 or 5 inches and look something like this: New 4" Inch Center In / Center Out High Flow Stainless Steel HD Diesel Muffler |

Not going to break the bank at $74.99 delivered.

If 5", just do another search. Should be pretty easy to match up size with the big exhaust pipe out of the turbo. Outlet pipe should be same diameter and route out the back like OEM did.

Pierce

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #171 – June 18, 2012, 05:16:11 pm

Quote from: John Haygarth – June 17, 2012, 11:03:21 am

Now after you have all changed over to a resonator the next thing is to add the Banks Stinger. That does make a big difference on power.

Just back from 700 miles round trip (over to the DW's parents' house in Long Beach, WA on Thursday and home on Sunday) and I am convinced that the Banks Stinger installation on our little 230hp 5.9 Cummins makes the difference between an enjoyable trip and a frustrating one.

Holding 60-61 mph (2150rpm) we got 11.2mpg (no toad) on cruise-control and seldom slowed down on the freeway grades along the Columbia River Gorge east of Portland, OR. and pulled the grade leading north from Hermiston, OR on I-82 at 60mph with no issues. This was loaded with the kids and their baby and all the paraphernalia that includes.

But when the traffic got thicker and it became more dangerous to hold 60mph than keep up with the trucks I could easily move along at 65 to 70. I picked one flatbed on I-5 that seemed to be pretty smart and just tailed him 100 yards behind. The high driver position of the U225 made that easy. I could move into a faster lane and accelerate fast enough to not cause anyone any issues, get past the slower traffic, and move back to the right. No stress. Actually fun!

Although the Stinger package came with the coach, I'm convinced that it's worth the money (at least on *that* engine) but I'm not sure that the "Power Pack" would make much of a difference.

The resonator is on my list as soon as I'm done with the 600-watts of solar, the inverter, and the changes to the wiring.

I think that with the Banks package you can either use all the available power to go faster and get the same fuel economy or back off and get more miles-per-gallon. Seems like a lot of folks go for the power.

Craig

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #172 – June 18, 2012, 05:42:05 pm

Craig,
It is nice to be able to run the way we are comfy as to speed and ability to keep up or pass at will that only comes with enough power to get it done, For me, the resonator was the first step (a wake up to the new found power). For those who feel the resonator does not work due to many dreamed up issues, I wish them warm smoke blown up their dress.

The second step was the change from the 450HP @ 1450 Torque to the new 500HP @ 1550 Torque. That is when the big wake up came into play, with the added 100 ft lb torque, that feels like a lot of HP kick in the butt, pull out and pass cars & trucks on big hills while towing the Ford P/U. I know it is capable of better mpg, but fuel is the cheapest part of a coach, so I enjoy the getter up and get it done, sure beats the slow lane and being trapped.
Enjoy
Dave M

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #173 – June 18, 2012, 08:02:43 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – June 18, 2012, 12:33:39 am

So what you need to do is change the turbo to a model that gets more boost (pressure) at say, 1200 rpm instead of 1400 rpm. Since it spins up sooner, it will build too much pressure and destroy the engine so you install a waste gate, another word for a relief valve. As the pressure builds to a harmful level, the waste gate opens and diverts the excess overboard. So, now it pulls like a mule a couple of hundred rpm lower and you select how much boost your engine will stand when you buy the waste gate. If you don't drive too many miles per year, why not replace the single turbo with a pair plus intercoolers like boats do? You now have a whole team of mules off the line and can't keep tread on the rear tires. The term "hill" or "grade" no longer have any meaning. Naturally, the TBO is a lot shorter.

Pierce

Not understanding here. Are you saying this is the effect of the banks stinger kit? Having been the proud owner of a Johnson and Towers DD671TIA cranking out 480 HP with a lifespan seemingly measured in tens of hours, I have no desire to relive the experience of that box a rocks. It had every trick in the book from water cooled heat exchanger for the fuel on.

Chuck

Re: Resonator and muffler replacement

Reply #174 – June 18, 2012, 09:27:22 pm

Chuck,

No, was just having some fun!

Actually, the 6V-92TAs are used in boats with 525 to 550 hp with as much as 614 hp using a couple of turbos. The TBO (time between overhaul) is usually at least a couple of thousand hours with turbo failure more likely than engine failure. Here is a quote from a 6V-92TA boat forum owner with a couple of 550 hp 6V-92TAs:

"I had the 550hp versions in a 92'45' vilking convertable.Despite some of the negatives said at times about these older Detriots' mine were flawless-never had a single problem.If I remember right I cruised at 24-25knts burning roughly 40-45 gal an hour.Cruised the boat from the mid-atlantic to Stuart fl twice and put significant hrs on the motors. When I sold it I had close to two thousand hrs-good compression and very little smoke-only on a cold start and getting on plane.Get a survey and adjust offers based on findings-good luck."

This is only one of a lot of great reviews for this engine that I have come across. I have absolutely tortured Detroit 2 cycles since 1967 without a complaint. Almost half of our responses were with dead cold engines (no block heater) to full throttle and out to 2400 rpm within several seconds of startup. Made me a real believer.

They were the engines of choice in sport fishermen for a lot of years. Most of the reviews have been really positive with some posts pointing out issues that our members using the same engines may want to consider. Sort of accelerated wear testing with this much horsepower.

Other marine engine forums are also out there featuring CATs and Cummins. Interested members may just search with Google using keywords like CAT, forum, marine, boat, etc. Here is the forum I lifted the quote from: 6V92 Detroit Diesel? - The Hull Truth - Boating and Fishing Forum

Can't imagine your Banks Stinger kit having any effect on engine life.

Pierce

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