Newbie boondocker questions

Topic: Newbie boondocker questions (Read 4195 times) previous topic - next topic

Newbie boondocker questions

August 19, 2012, 10:25:48 am

I recently purchased a 1991 U300 which the previous owner installed all new batteries in thankfully. I was at Foretravel's factory service center in Nacogdoches a few weeks ago and they tested the inverter and batteries and said everything is working fine. I just drove to Maine and a lot of the campgrounds here have no electricity. I doubt I'll need air conditioning so that shouldn't be a big deal. My main concern is the ice machine, which unfortunately is 120 volt AC and requires that I run the inverter all the time or lose the ice. I just spent the night in the parking lot at the Kittery Trading Post in Maine because I arrived a night earlier than I have campground reservations for. The inverter / ice machine ran all night and everything still appears to be fine. How long will new batteries last with the inverter / ice machine running all the time? How long will I need to run my generator each day to recharge the batteries? Why does the video screen read the coach voltage instead of the house voltage? Is there a way to tell what the voltage is on the house batteries other than going out there and putting my voltmeter on the battery terminals?... or am I confusing the "coach" voltage on the screen with the house voltage? To me the coach is the chassis and therefore would be the engine cranking battery. I presume the voltmeter on the dashboard is the engine's cranking battery? I would really prefer to have an ammeter on the engine's cranking battery and a voltmeter on the house batteries, but whatever. People with a lot more motor home experience designed it. I'm sure there's a good reason for the way things are, even if I don't understand it yet! haha

Scott

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #1 – August 19, 2012, 10:40:16 am

On my screen in the backup monitor, it measures the house barttery voltage the dash volt meter is the chassis voltage. The ice maker is a huge drain and I used to make ice and shut it off and put the ice in the freezer. If you have three house batteries you can go overnight easily two is also overnight as well but as they age you will find they will. OT make it thru the nigh if you put much load on them. We have two Cpaps as well as regular lights and most times boon docking the heat and blowers. I can last the night with the ice maker off and three house gell cells. I need a good four hours to recharge them with the generator. Do not just start up the engine and try to use the alternator. It will do it but shorten the life and burn it out faster. You need two alternators or a much bigger one to do that.

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #2 – August 19, 2012, 10:52:37 am

Scott,
If you have the coach's manual, Foretravel has a page that tells you the approx. amperage draw of each appliance. If not, maybe you can remove the appliance and try to find the plackard that tells you the size motor and amp draw (or watts). Don't mean to be other than helpful,,,watts=ampsxvolts. On the genset run time to fully charge the batteries...depends on how many & the state of charge, boost switch on or off, appliances running or not...on-and-on. For your unit, you need to get some experience with the charging times. There's just too many variables.
Peter

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #3 – August 19, 2012, 11:08:41 am

This entire adventure has been a learning experience! (laugh)... I still have a little over 12 volts showing on the video screen. I lost about half a volt overnight with the inverter / ice machine running. I think I'm just gonna start the engine and drive away. Hopefully the alternator will be okay with that. I like the idea of putting the ice in the freezer and shutting the inverter / ice machine off when boondocking. I'll see if I can fit the ice in the freezer... Is there a 12 volt DC ice machine? That would be really nice so I wouldn't need to run the inverter at all.

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #4 – August 19, 2012, 11:24:41 am

A 12vdc ice machine exists but the load would probably be about the same. If you put the ice in the fridge and run that on propane you would probably be ahead. Even with a lot of solar panels overnight with an ice machine running and the inverter (which has its own load) can still give you problems in the morning.

I am a big fan of the Kill-a-Watt device which is invaluable in determining how much load an AC device puts on a system. It also will measure the frequency (Hz) of your generator or shore power, the exact voltage, and will even calculate how much an appliance costs if you put in the appropriate numbers. All for under $50.

There are also battery monitors available which will keep track of charging and discharging so that you can always know the state of charge of a battery bank. Those run about $150 plus a shunt for about $50. Not all that hard to install, either.

Moving to LED lighting is important; especially for any incandescent lamps (bathroom lights, bedroom lights, etc.). Fluorescent lighting is pretty frugal but you can replace them with LED strips when the ballasts go out for about the same price as replacing the ballast itself. The LEDs are much more efficient.

Having the generator as a backup is important, I think. Do not leave the "boost" switch on all the time however or you'll risk not being able to start the generator or the coach after a stint of boondocking.

Craig

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #5 – August 19, 2012, 02:04:31 pm

Your batteries are like a full glass of water sitting under a dripping faucet. Once you take a gulp out of the glass, unless the drip is sufficient to refill the glass, after a certain amount of gulps the glass will be empty.

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #6 – August 19, 2012, 03:48:32 pm

I boondock most of the time when in California with 850 Watts of solar panels.
I removed the ice maker within the freezer of the Dometic 7832 refer which was OEM in my 1996 U320. I needed more freezer room and am willing to use ice trays in the freezer for making ice. I rebuilt the shelves inside the freezer to make an ice tray shelf (1.5 inches high) and an ice cube container about 4 inches high.
I use the Ice maker compressor when the sun is shining so it runs from solar power and reduces the temperature in the freezer compartment. I turn it off at night because it draws too much power.

How much is automatic ice making worth? The answer to this is different for each person.

If you make ice when driving and then store it in a plastic freezer bag in the freezer your boondocking motorhome experience will be better - dead batteries are not fun to deal with. When doondocking, if you turn the icemaker off when you have sufficient ice you will have power for other things like lights and TVs or radios.
If you have campground power, which I seldom do, enjoy your ice maker - it is a great convenience.

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #7 – August 19, 2012, 08:05:03 pm

Won't the ice machine develop a bad odor after I turn it off every time unless I clean it thoroughly, spray it with bleach, and leave the door open? That sounds like a major annoyance as compared to leaving it running. In hot weather I drink a lot of ice water... which I'm actually doing right now... (slurp)... Ahhh!... When you guys talk about a three battery system as compared to a two battery system do you mean two house batteries and one cranking battery is a three battery system?... or do you mean three house batteries and a cranking battery? I have two new house batteries and a new cranking battery and it ran the ice machine / inverter all night long losing about half a volt from the time I went to sleep until I woke up in the morning. I was kinda surprised how well it did. How can I tell when the generator has sufficiently charged the batteries so I can shut down the generator again? Won't the volt meter on the video display show the voltage the generator is supplying instead of the voltage the batteries have in them?... Sorry to ask so many stoopid questions! haha

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #8 – August 19, 2012, 08:45:45 pm

Quote from: RRadio – August 19, 2012, 08:05:03 pm

Sorry to ask so many stoopid questions! haha

Scott,

I'll let others answer the specific items, but there are no stupid questions here. For every person who asks about something, there are at least 5-10 who either wanted to ask it or will benefit from the answer.

Michelle

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #9 – August 19, 2012, 08:52:59 pm

Quote from: RRadio – August 19, 2012, 08:05:03 pm

Won't the ice machine develop a bad odor after I turn it off every time unless I clean it thoroughly, spray it with bleach, and leave the door open? ...

No. We have a U-Line ice maker. When I shut it down, I just empty the bucket, wipe it out with dry towels, and leave the door open a crack. Been doing that for two years and had no problems with stuff growing in the ice maker.

We don't use much ice. I have started making ice in trays in the freezer compartment of the Dometic refrigerator. Works fine for us. We use the coach mostly for family visits and seldom spend more than two weeks at a time in the coach. Wife would like to replace the ice maker with drawers. Find out what works for you.

A smart charger with control center would serve you well if you are boondocking. It will show amp-hours used and also charge rate. You can read the state of the batteries from the control panel. Amp-hour tracking and current in/out of the batteries are very useful measures. Our coach came with a Link-2000 system as original equipment. It still works well. There have been discussions of suitable after market systems on this forum. The search function can help you find what other folk have done.

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #10 – August 19, 2012, 08:59:07 pm

I'm one of those who benefits from the questions others ask. Even though we don't have a motor home yet, the questions or situations that others bring up often generate conversations here, as we assess that particular issue in regards to our plans. Usually the question causes us to think about something that we hadn't previously considered.

Again, thanks to all who have so generously answered our questions, given us advice, and shown us their coaches. You have helped us narrow down our choices from literally thousands of coaches to a small handful.

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #11 – August 19, 2012, 09:32:31 pm

As to battery numbers. I have seen coaches with 2 or 3 house batteries, seems more batteries on newer coaches as things go all electric and larger inverters. Usually a set of linked engine or chassis batteries, usually two.

I have two 8D's for the house needs, and two group 24's for the engine and chassis.

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #12 – August 19, 2012, 09:49:05 pm

I have three 8D batteries, all new in February 2012 according to the invoice from the previous owner. Two of them are house batteries and one is the cranking battery. Foretravel tested the whole setup and said it's working great, and apparently it is if last night is any indication of the performance I can expect. The major unknown for me now is how long I'll have to run the generator each day to keep the batteries charged. I just filled up with diesel so I'll be okay for several weeks of boondocking probably... Is half a volt drop overnight good performance? How low can the voltage go before I have to start the generator? I don't want to discharge the batteries to the point that I'm straining them or shortening their life. The batteries are expensive and I'm really glad the previous owner replaced them before he sold the rig to me.

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #13 – August 19, 2012, 11:48:28 pm

We also live full time with solar and currently have three 8D MK gel batteries.
We monitor our voltage quite carefully and prefer to keep the voltage above 12.4 for average use and NEVER let it drop below 12.2 volts. Batteries are expensive. We also use an electronic desulfator.
I would encourage you to add at least 480 watts of solar to your roof to assist in keeping you in available power. Some add a lot more.

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #14 – August 20, 2012, 01:12:57 am

Also, check your battery voltage at the battery after you look at it on the monitor. You might find a difference. If you have three 8Ds you should be able to go overnight but you should run yoru generator not just start up. IF you want to have that confirmed call James Triana at the factory. He calls the alternator a maintainer not a charger.

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #15 – August 20, 2012, 07:56:18 am

We have a ice maker in the freezer but we often bring a small cooler and just by a bag of ice every couple days. We prefer the clear ice from a commercial ice maker anyway.

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #16 – August 20, 2012, 09:51:32 am

Battery voltage is not really the best indicator for battery health. You should know the amp rating of your batteries and not allow your current draw to exceed 1/4 of the rating. Deep cycle batteries can be drawn down to 50% of their rating and still recover but you will still shorten the life of the batteries. With the proper meter you can determine what you have drawn and make sure you replace it the following day. Batteries much happier that way.

Roland

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #17 – August 20, 2012, 10:24:34 am

I second Craig's advice on getting some kind of dedicated battery monitoring device. Trying to figure battery state with multiple voltage readings is a pain and as you've experienced, the dash gauges aren't accurate. I recently installed a Trimetric and it has taken all of the guesswork out of battery management. It and other similar devices display exact amps in and amps out as well as voltage and percent of battery charge. Check out some earlier posts and you'll find some good discussion and photos. Good luck.
jor

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #18 – August 20, 2012, 11:23:28 am

I always camp in the shade if possible, and I normally camp in places that have power. Solar panels would be sorta useless for me. I doubt I'm gonna buy an expensive battery monitor for the few times I camp without power. I'll probably just guess how long to run the generator each day and adjust as needed... so if I have two house batteries and a cranking battery do I have what you guys are calling a three battery system or a two battery system?

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #19 – August 20, 2012, 06:18:23 pm

Rradio... you have what I'd call a 2-house (or "hotel") and one starting battery system. They should be entirely separate until you purposely connect them with a "boost" switch (or other means) to ensure that depleted house batteries will not affect starting your engine or generator.

You have mentioned that overnight use of the ice maker caused a "half volt" drop. Do not let your batteries get below 12.2vdc measured AT THE BATTERY TERMINALS or by a battery monitor system such as Tri Metric. Your batteries will be full at about 12.6vdc and need to be recharged at 12.2vdc. Do not rely on the video readout on the monitor! If you continually let your batteries get down to 12.2vdc you will not get a full lifetime of use from them.

If you do not have a "smart' charging system I'd also advise that you invest in one and install it. They cost about $150 from Amazon. I'm in the process of installing a TriMetric system on out 1993 coach along with solar panels.

By the way... there is precious little shade in the desert... so solar panels really help for lots of us.

Craig

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #20 – August 20, 2012, 06:31:10 pm

With enough solar panels on the roof, you are already in the shade.

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #21 – August 20, 2012, 07:16:29 pm

This is great advice and information for you RRadio, this is why I love this site.

RRadio, if you insists on running your ice maker when boondocking, you have two choices, pay now or pay later.
In other words, either buy a battery monitor and learn about how to manage your batteries, or replace very expensive batteries in a couple years. I have seen folks who did not manage their battery use and ruined a bank of batteries in one year. Brand new to scrap in just 12 months.

RRadio asked if a 0.5 volt drop in battery voltage is OK (or something like that).

The answer requires questions to be asked because determining the state of charge of a battery using battery voltage is quit inexact, and is more of an art than a science.

A fully charged battery which has stabilized will read about 12.70 volts.

A battery which is 50% discharged and has stabilized will read about 12.2 volts (ie a 0.5 volt drop).

Stabilized means battery has sat untouched for at least four hours with battery cables disconnected.

A battery which is 95% discharged and being recharged could easily read about 12.2 volts.

A fully charged battery which is providing power for a couple spot lights could read about 12.2 volts.

In other words, 12.2 volt battery voltage could mean the battery is 95% charged or 95% discharged - such is the nature of a lead acid battery.

The only convenient reliable way to determine battery state of charge is to use an amphour meter which has been calibrated to the battery. The inconvenient reliable ways include reading voltage after stabilizing for four hours or using a hydrometer (not possible with sealed batteries).

To see for yourself how battery voltage can change and not reflect the state of charge, attach a good voltmeter and plot voltage/time on graph paper. To a fully charged battery at 12.70 volts, connect bulbs which draw at least 5 amps. Voltage will drop rapidly for the first 20 minutes then become a steady state drop. After five hours of plotting, disconnect the bulb and continue plotting voltages. Voltage will climb like magic, rapidly for the first hour, then more slowly for about 12 hours.

RRadio, back to your Icemaker. An icemaker will turn on and off intermittently and the inverter will require a fraction of an amp when the icemaker is off and perhaps 40 amps when the icemaker is on. The number of minutes per hour the icemaker is on will depend on the room temperature where the icemaker is, and how long the icemaker door is open and how often water is added to make ice.

Personally, if I were you, I would put the ice cubes in a plastic bag in your freezer and shut off the ice maker when boondocking.

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #22 – August 20, 2012, 07:21:51 pm

Thank you everyone for all the help that I have gotten by just riding along with Scott's question.

Wyatt really helped explain and test voltage drop. Once again I am amazed at the wealth of info on this site.

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #23 – August 20, 2012, 09:23:03 pm

I will be boondocking without power for one night this weekend, so I may leave the ice machine running that night, then I'm back to camping with power for a week, then I'm without power for about a month... at which point I'll shut off the ice machine, clean it, and leave the door open so it won't develop an odor. I'll buy a bag of ice every so often until I have power again... I'll still have to experiment with how long to run the generator each day though. I don't use much power other than a laptop computer, water pump, and lights once in a while. I normally go to bed right when it gets dark. I think I'm going to install a 12V DC cigarette lighter plug that runs off the house batteries for the laptop. I have a 12V DC power supply for it. I won't need the inverter at all without the ice machine. When the ice machine dies I'll probably replace it with a 12V DC model... and when the air compressor dies, which could be soon considering the loud sounds it's making, I'll probably replace it with a 12V DC model... Does anyone make a 12V DC microwave oven? I think mine is already dead, but I hardly ever use a microwave so I haven't replaced it yet. I intend to remove the front TV because I never watch TV, but I'll probably keep the rear TV, which is 12V DC... and that should get rid of every 120V AC item in the whole rig shouldn't it? I'll be inverterless... is that a word? haha

Re: Newbie boondocker questions

Reply #24 – August 20, 2012, 09:32:43 pm

Quote from: RRadio – August 20, 2012, 09:23:03 pm

and that should get rid of every 120V AC item in the whole rig shouldn't it?

Might I ask why you would want to do this?

-M

Affiliate Notice