Foretravel's Business Model

Topic: Foretravel's Business Model (Read 2595 times) previous topic - next topic

Foretravel's Business Model

August 21, 2012, 07:28:27 pm

Well, I decided to keep my coach but looking at new ones sure opens your eyes. I just read that Newmar sold its 1000 Essex. I was in one or two and they favorably compare to the phenix. Not so flashy with inlay but a solid coach and in the 600-700 area. FT used to make 300 coaches a year. I do not believe they are making coaches people want today. I was at Grizzly and Blackwells. I talked to a couple of owners of MHs. They said they love the older numbered coaches but were left cold when they say the new IH. On bought an Essex the other an 03 Marathon and one bought a 2010 Newell. Said the difference in the factory was night and day. Sad to hear this. I remember being at a rally and hearing we dream about owning a FT. Have not heard that in a while when it comes to new coaches.

Not trying to bash FT. I have had three of them but hope they might read this and talk to some owners at the GV.

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #1 – August 22, 2012, 01:55:34 pm

I tend to agree. There is a market out there for coaches that are more like the U320. The clientele for motor-homes like these tends to be older and with more conservative tastes. Make a coach that is pure quality and save money on all the glitz and glitter - windows outlined in LED's??? yuk... then price it reasonably. Just look at the market for the older units and I think that proves it.

I know that Foretravel think that the starter Foretravel is a used one. Maybe they are right but they may sell more new units. Stop chasing other manufactures and re-carve the niche that they once had.

Note to Factory: Do some market research on the Forum. It's free and you may learn something.

Keith

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #2 – August 22, 2012, 02:18:26 pm

Here is another problem. I think it could be argued (and I think it has been on this forum) that the quality of pre-IH coaches declined after about 2003. So the number of high quality coaches available for the "starter market" is declining with time. I am sure there will not be agreement with this assessment from those owners of newer coaches, but from what I have seen and heard, I really do think quality is an issue in newer coaches. They are simply more problematic than the earlier coaches. And "problem free" RVing is what made FT's name.

I agree that FT is barking up the wrong tree, unless they want to be a specialty manufacturer and create a dozen or so coaches per year for the top "1%." But I don't see them competing with manufacturers like Newell. Too bad. Maybe it is the end of an era. As I suggested previously, a line of new, smaller, quality coaches, based on the U295 model would seem to be attractive. But who knows what will happen to the coach market when fuel hits $5 a gallon. Tough market to be in.

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink their business model

Reply #3 – August 22, 2012, 02:53:57 pm

For us Canadians our price per imp gallon is close to $6 right now, and over in some areas.
I would agree that a toned down 36ft-40ft non all electric, but with quality finishing and less "Las Vegas" lighting and mirrors would surely fit most of the market out there.
John H

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #4 – August 22, 2012, 05:19:50 pm

For those of you with pre 1999 Foretravel's the simplicity you talk about could not be sold in today's market. You didn't have slides and many of the other elements that make up any manufactured motorhome of to days era. Even the basic $150,000 entry level unit has more bells and whistles than yours. How do you expect Foretravel to compete with other manufactures with the quality you rave about and want, yet stay competitive with their designs. I have owned 4 Foretravels and each one was about $150,000 more at list price than the other. I can't see where the quality has gone down but rather the complexity has gone up. Your pre EGR and exhaust compliant engines cost a fraction of today's costs. I'm old enough to remember buying a new car for $3500, that same car today is $35000. Come on give Foretravel a break they have survived in a era of the end of some very fine Coach manufacturers. They sell a beautiful product among the fiberglass category, and yes they are catering to a select group of buyers that have the means to spend $600,000 up for their Motorhomes. The Foretravel Frame, DriveTrain, including retarder probably costs as much as a entry coach. Personally I can't afford a new Foretravel, I was lucky enough to buy my 08 at the right time in my life and financial life. Today things are surely different. but i don't blame Foretravel for my inability to buy at a price I find acceptable.

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #5 – August 22, 2012, 05:40:37 pm

Jame's Stalling said it best,when he told the Fore family to keep the U270 as the entry level coach,drop the U295 as it was just an upgraded 270,keep the U320, and buy Prevost Shells for the high end coach.

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #6 – August 22, 2012, 06:44:51 pm

Well, what caused me to say this was going into a new Newell followed the same day by a number of new FTs. I also happened to see a new Essex at the same time. If you compare them you have Newell then FT then Essex in order f quality. I have been told that Newell is selling more coaches than FT is selling for more money. I worry that the company is going to have issues as the late model used units dry up. They did about 75 or so after they took over and have declined every year since. Yes they survived the downturn but that was because they were in a rebuilding phase. Well, you can only stay in that phase so long. I want them to survive and thrive. I just think that if you look at the coaches out there for sale that they are competing with that there needs to be some adjustments. Everyone has the same costs for engines and setup. I think they need to be able to produce more coaches and as a result they need to look at their approach.

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #7 – August 22, 2012, 07:07:54 pm

I would suggest a different business model (as I did several years ago).

Research Hinkley Yachts. They are the Rolls Royce of sailboats (and now some powerboats). They have been in business since 1928.

Sure, they sell some new boats. But the majority of their profit each year is from REFURBISHING older Hinkleys.

We all know that the older Foretravels are worth the investment to upgrade.

That is the part of the business model that I suggested to Lyle be strengthened the day before he closed on the business. The refurb/upgrading business is MUCH more steady than is new coach sales. Foretravel has the expertise, the space and the people.

Brett

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #8 – August 22, 2012, 07:12:31 pm

That is a great business line. I was talking to David F and he said he got to hire two more guys. I do not think you can cover the cost for a factory though with a few sales and remodels.

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #9 – August 22, 2012, 07:13:54 pm

BTW, I was at the Annapolis Sailboat show and was invited to the Hinkley house party as well as Hood. I used to teach sailing in Annapolis and had a Sailboat that I raced for 10 years prior to getting my first MH.

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #10 – August 22, 2012, 07:46:15 pm

OK, I'll bite (and go WAY off topic). What boat did you race where? BTW been through Hinkley factory with Hinkley nephew and then had Tom Morris take us through the Morris yard across the bay. GREAT experiences for any sail-boater. But, we ended up buying and putting a lot of miles on boats built on the "left coast". Pacific Seacraft Crealock 37's.

Now, back on topic: I have no idea what Mr Reed paid for Foretravel, or how the debt is styled, so projecting P&L isn't possible. But, from running large automobile dealerships for a career, I can tell you that fixed operations had better pay the overhead, with sales generating the profit. That is (and was) car business 101.

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #11 – August 22, 2012, 07:54:17 pm

Brett's right on..."their" business model better make sure the break-even number of coaches gets built & sold every year as we know where deficit spending leads you...FWIW.
Peter

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #12 – August 22, 2012, 08:31:23 pm

Actually in the car business, you had better be able to break even on the "back end" profit-- New and used vehicle sales are the GRAVY.

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #13 – August 22, 2012, 10:38:28 pm

Let's face it, the average motorhome buyer doesn't truly know about them. They don't do exhaustive research before buying, and their choices are based more on fluff than on substance. That's what has always kept Foretravel a low volume manufacturer. If you don't know what's underneath the thing, and behind the walls, you will certainly wonder why the Foretravel costs $200K more than the (any SOB here). Thank goodness, those of us on this Forum knew, and that's why we smile and nod as our friends regale us with their shiny knew SOBs, knowing that our trusty old Foretravel will most likely still be on the road long after theirs have given up the ghost. IMHO.

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #14 – August 22, 2012, 11:31:07 pm

Well well ; lets see who can BASH Foretravel the most . I don't see a need to try and make everyone who bought a later model Foretravel look stupid . This puts a wedge where it is not needed . Makes for feelings that best left alone . How can this type of think be good for this forum ? Do we have too many members and need to shed a few ? Everyone has their likes and dislikes , why try to impose your likes .The owners of Foretravel bought a company inches away from closing forever and you have to BASH them for trying to survive and make something out of nothing. Shame on you . We need to support this struggling company . They have not yet had a profitable year and they sure don't need this in their face. If you have an improvement idea , go talk to Greg or Lyle ,don't try to posion the world . Brad Metzger

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #15 – August 23, 2012, 12:03:31 am

I will only add that I reckon 99% of us forum members ARE supporting the factory by owning, upgrading, and talking non stop about the pride we all seem to have in our coaches. I know I am weekly being asked about it as (especially here in the "backwoods" of Canada) you do not see these around here, and people love it when they take a peek. We have a major seller of Newmars in the next town and most owners of DP have a Newmar, they are everywhere. None compare to our quality of fittings etc (once you get past the glitter in theirs). A 10 yr old Newmar looks like it was 15yrs. A 10 yr old Foretravel looks like it was 5yrs. I see pride of ownership in a Foretravel, but Newmars and SOBs are just used for what they are, somewere to sleep on a trip!!
I think that the comments so far are not meant to knock FOT, just to try and make them better than we know they are. Since joining this forum I have firstly met a lot of great people, and also really enjoyed learning about, and, being able to improve my coach to be the best it can.Hopefully the fact that we all own one is proof enough that we DO care about FOT and it's future.
That's all I have to say.
John H

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #16 – August 23, 2012, 01:20:38 am

I made a good living as a new foretravel salesman in the middle 80's rebuilding the old ftx's from the seventy's with new 80's interiors and window treatments.

Some never upgraded as their finances could not support a new 180k coach in the 80's.

Must have done a couple dozen. Lots of detail work. Ask mike grimes as I am sure he still remembers me.

But everyone made money and the customers got great motorhomes and into the club.

Most upgraded over the years. Selling quality used was never hard. Still is not hard.

The Newell had a frame rail if I remember? Maybe wrong as this was long ago.

Used to laugh as their 45' was 45'6" and illegal everywhere. Had to have a tow car as the combined length was ok but not the coach then.

Same as the prevost le mirage at 103.5" width at the belt molding.

Bob

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #17 – August 23, 2012, 03:47:30 am

Well, I just saw a FT that fits the bill a Nimbus 6565. It is a quad slide though. In looking at it and the others they have, it is the lack of wood that is different on the IH and Phenix. This one looks closer to our coaches than the IH and other ones with huge expanses of some type of non-wood covering. And yes Brad, I do want them to survive and the fact tat there has not been a profitable year as you say is one reason to talk about it. Something is going to give sooner or later and I did send an email to Greg A too. I have gone in and talked to him as well. We have the largest user base of owners on here though and that is why I posted here. To discuss the models and what we like and dislike is a service not a slap in the face to any owner or to the company. I am saying this because I read that Newmar sold 1000 Essex coaches and that is a private company just below FT and Newell is selling just above. Sometimes management just is not seeing the forest out there. David bringing Newell to there doorstep is going to bring this to a head sooner rather than later. It did not have to happen this way but since there highline competitor is across the street and I saw a new Newell it has been eating at me. I truely believe that FT makes the best coach or did make it for years. I owned three of them. I wanted to buy a new one when I got my current one. They would not put an IFS on a Nimbus at the time and I was told buy a Phenix. Oh and to delete slides makes it more expensive too. So I went older and remodeled instead of buying new. I have talked to others too about this as well. They have a Nimbus now that I have seen that is very close. Too many slides for me on this one and in talking to Tyle they are building a non slide right now for a customer, so I am not alone in wanting a simpler coach with less electronics. The issues I have are the electronics. I think if FT adjusted how they are selling the coaches and put sales centers back in TN and Liberty Lake and California as well as a couple in Texas and one if FL they could sell the heck out of the coaches. As it is nobody sees them. I went to the RV show in Washington DC. That is one of the most affluent counties in the country and no FT there. We are seeing the numbers in our club dwindle in the North East and Mid Atlantic. They have ceded the market to the Newmars and Tiffens of the world and that is sad. There has to be a way to make a competitive coach without bells and whistles yet retain FT quality and sell a lot of them.

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #18 – August 23, 2012, 08:40:16 am

Quote from: John S – August 23, 2012, 03:47:30 am

There has to be a way to make a competitive coach without bells and whistles yet retain FT quality and sell a lot of them.

John,
That's what I said a while back and I was made to feel pretty stupid as some said that the new owners knew what they were doing and profit margins and this & that. Then again, maybe they know something we don't.
Peter

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #19 – August 23, 2012, 09:28:51 am

Quote from: Steve & Ginny Hill – August 22, 2012, 10:38:28 pm

Let's face it, the average motorhome buyer doesn't truly know about them. They don't do exhaustive research before buying, and their choices are based more on fluff than on substance.

Thank goodness, those of us on this Forum knew, and that's why we smile and nod as our friends regale us with their shiny knew SOBs, knowing that our trusty old Foretravel will most likely still be on the road long after theirs have given up the ghost. IMHO.

Reminds me of TV commercials in the NY area that ran when Steve and I were young - "An educated consumer is our best customer" - Sy Syms

Quote from: John Haygarth – August 23, 2012, 12:03:31 am

A 10 yr old Newmar looks like it was 15yrs. A 10 yr old Foretravel looks like it was 5yrs.

This September 6th our coach will be 10 years old, and everyone non-FTer who sees it thinks it's only a year old (and that was before the headlight/tail light conversion).

Comparing a FT to an Essex (or Tiffin's Zephyr, which might be considered in the same space) isn't really valid. The Essex and Zehyr are stock floor plan, stock design package coaches. Even the "old Monaco" Signature's were as well. I believe all FT's built these days are fully custom coaches, even the Nimbus. Kind of like comparing a tract home builder to a custom home builder.

Now if FT wanted to increase production volume and play in that space, one possibility would be to take the Nimbus (and maybe Phenix) and make those stock floor plan coaches with stock design packages. Much like the U's and GV's through 2005 were. Less engineering/design cost, lower materials cost by volume buying of certain things. A risk, of course, is that higher production volume means more inventory and production personnel that are vulnerable to market fluctuations.

When the time comes, our next coach will be another FT. It will most likely be a pre-owned; that's just our way. Hopefully there's another FTer out there with our same design ideas and has it built

Michelle

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #20 – August 23, 2012, 10:28:30 am

I like the old ones and I like the new ones.
jor

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #21 – August 23, 2012, 11:19:04 am

Let's not forget that FOT has to appeal to new buyers to stay in business long term. This means a new generation of people too. The newer generation wants the the fancy gadgets and electronics as that is what they grew up with.

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #22 – August 23, 2012, 01:00:27 pm

Let me chime in as an SOB owner that's hoping to get an FT.

We live in NC and hadn't heard of Foretravel or seen one until a trip in May of this year. We had stumbled across a Foretravel rally at Mayberry Campgrounds in NC, after a mistake in our reservation at Stone mountain SP in NC. I saw all these coaches with numbers and very similar looks, had no idea what they were. After doing my research on the net, we were surprised at what we saw, and fascinated.

We're currently getting ready to list our current SOB so we can pursue an FT. I wish we had known about them before! FT really needs more exposure, if they want more sales.

I think every MC builder has the problem today of balancing quality and tech. Personally I like the look of the Foretravel stuff over Newell's as they seem to be less flashy. I'm not looking to drive a casino around! My bigger concern would be, where is the entry level FT? Someone has to buy these new for those of us that want to buy used. I'm talking something in the sub 500k range and not trying to compete in the lower end. Though I do think if FT offered a high quailty yet simple coach they could disrupt a few markets. Not every MH needs 5 TV's and touchscreens every 5 feet. I love tech and have grown up with it, but when I'm traveling or camping I'm not looking to control every aspect of the coach with a smart phone. I'm willing to bet if they had maybe a 36' with and optional slide, just a simple layout with excellent quaility, would sell very well, if promoted.

Maybe they're just making enough selling what the sell now? It's definitely a much different market than it used to be.....

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #23 – August 23, 2012, 02:08:15 pm

A back to basics campaign, but would anybody actually buy it? You've got to think the current designs of high end coaches didn't just happen, rather they were targeted toward the biggest buying audience. Deleting the glitz probably wouldn't save much money but it would put the coach, appearance wise, in competition with lower end models and the used Foretravel market. I ran into this building spec houses years ago. The people who wanted a small well built house came in droves but few could qualify and appraisals were always an issue due to lack of gross sq. footage. It's so much cheaper, per square foot to build large and snazzy than small and simple. They've all got the same systems, large or small and there's an inescapable fixed cost regardless of finish. A lot of the fancy interior work is probably much less expensive than building a solid wood interior, less skilled trades, cnc fabrication etc. One can look at the powerboat market and see the same thing happening with canbus electronics, fly by wire pod type propulsion, joystick controls, outrageous interiors,sellin the sizzle not the steak.

Re: Foretravel needs to rethink there business model

Reply #24 – August 23, 2012, 02:26:45 pm

Good points!

I guess I'd just love to see them maybe bring back the 270 or 295 simplify and keep the options to a minimum. I know flash sells, but I think quality could work too. It would require education and an east coast presence.

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