No start

Topic: No start (Read 1175 times) previous topic - next topic

No start

November 26, 2013, 01:17:51 pm

Our coach has been sitting for some time, and it wasn't as level as it ought to be, so I thought I'd fire it up and relevel. I turned on the block heater for an hour and tried yesterday. No go, so I left the heater on overnight and tried again this morning. No go, so I left it on. We have reached the high for the day, about 40 degrees, so I tried again. Not even a grunt. Of course, all of the air has leaked out of the tanks, so I can't just relevel the coach, and since the key was on it has dropped down to close to travel mode.

Any suggestions, other than wait for warmer weather?

Re: No start

Reply #1 – November 26, 2013, 01:28:20 pm

I assume the engine is turning over but not starting? If so, then most likely not getting fuel. I would consider cracking one of the injectors to insure that diesel is getting to the cylinders. If not, bleed them until you get good diesel flow, retighten the injectors and try again to start. I am not the best mechanic, so this may not be the best advice. I do know the main reason diesels won't run is lack of fuel. I am not sure if you can use starting fluid with your engine (ether). This is contraindicated in some models. That is certainly an option that may be expensive if contraindicated for your engine. I have a 8.3 cummins and I understand that ether is not to be used for it.
I will note one other thing. Make sure your block heater is working. I had a problem with mine. I thought it was working as the red light on the switch was illuminated, BUT a mouse or something had chewed through the wiring and though the wire was hot, it was not supplying energy to the heater. I had to cut the wires and got an old heavy duty extension cord and spliced it to the wiring. Voila' energized block heater works and heck of a lot better. One way to check the block heater is follow the wiring and turn it on and see if it is warm to touch. I also have one of those infrared (?) temp monitors. It showed the ambient temp and when the block heater is energized you can take the readings and see an obvious increase in the temp in the area of the heater. Without that, just use your hand to tell. Hope this is helpful and is well intentioned but I am not a mechanic.

Re: No start

Reply #2 – November 26, 2013, 01:29:54 pm

David, Both house and Chassis batteries fully charged ? Will it not start with boost switch in on position ? 40 Degrees is not that cold. Mine has started down to 15 degrees with out block heater. Something is not right here. Start with checking charge state of batteries.
Gary B

Re: No start

Reply #3 – November 26, 2013, 01:41:30 pm

I am certain that you are better than i am.

In my 88 ORED i had similar issue but it was 60.

Just master buzer on. No start. What i found after an hour of panic was that i bumped the gearshift, put it in netural varoom it started.

Like i said dont know if you have the 4 speed.
Hope our experience helps you.

Re: No start

Reply #4 – November 26, 2013, 01:47:34 pm

David,
Is it cranking?
Have you verified the engine block heater is working? You should be able to easily feel the warmth with you hand on the engine. If your 6V92 is like mine the heater is on the drivers side head right where the coolant pipe exits vertically. I'm sure you've read that the 6V92 doesn't start easy or quickly at all without the heater in cold temps.

Re: No start

Reply #5 – November 26, 2013, 02:11:34 pm

Yeah, what John said... My 6V92TA won't start at 40 degrees unless the block heater really is working. It will just barely start at 50 degrees without the heater. Last week it took me three tries and all three batteries to get it to start at 28 degrees with the heater running for over three hours. Put your hand on the radiator, hoses, and engine block to see if everything is warm.

Re: No start

Reply #6 – November 26, 2013, 02:49:44 pm

As John says above, you should be able to feel if the block heater is working. Actually, it's not a really a block heater and due to poor design, it was moved from a couple of excellent locations to a much less desirable location next to the block. It heats a coolant pipe where the coolant finally transfers the heat to the block. I know you have a radiator in the way but just lift the cover and reach down and feel around where the power cord goes into the block heater. It should be hot after an hour.

If not warm or hot, unplug it where it plugs into the wooden bulkhead outlet and put a small appliance into the plug and see if it works. The plug switch should also glow when you turn it on. If you have juice and the block heater is cold, you need a new one.

Another easy way is to have someone watch the voltmeter above the entry door as you turn on the heater switch. If you have a small extension cord to the coach, the voltmeter will drop a few volts when the block heater switch is flipped if the heater is working.

The block heaters are easy to replace and can be found on ebay starting at about $35 for a new one. Same part number as a CAT block heater.

Make sure the battery terminals are clean and the batteries are charged. They should be able to spin the engine pretty fast if everything is OK. Don't crank for more than 20 seconds and let it cool for 5 minutes or so if it does not start. I have used LARGE jumper cables to another vehicle to help keep the voltage up while cranking.

The turbo engines have a lower compression ratio so they are not the instant start on the first revolution that Detroit 2 cycles normally are.

The old style heaters are prone to leaking. The new style has the heater in one piece with the flange so less chance of a leak when replaced.

Bottom line is if the heater is not working and you are in cold weather, it's not going to start. Some have resorted to putting a charcoal bbq under the oil pan for an hour or so.

The hand priming pump O rings may also leak causing some air to get into the system. Ours is down on the frame rail in the engine compartment close to the primary fuel filter. At $0.10 for each ring at NAPA, it's a good thing to check. Our aluminum check valve by the filter also had a crack and was letting air in. Either one of these normally won't keep a Detroit from starting in good weather but may slow it down in cold temps.

If you continue to have cold weather starting problems, buy a remote block heater with internal pump and run a hose from one side of the block to the other. Should be $100 or so plus heater hose. This starts them no matter how cold. Here is a video on how to do it. Your 120V circuit should support 1000 watts. AM General Pre Heater M923 - YouTube While these are not as good as real inblock heaters, your Detroit does not have a good block heater so this will work much better.

Pierce

Re: No start

Reply #7 – November 26, 2013, 05:14:46 pm

What about sticking one of those magnetic heaters on the oil pan? ...or I was considering making a little shelf so I can put a can of Sterno right under the oil pan ...okay, so maybe that would be a fire hazard with oil leaks and stuff?

Re: No start

Reply #8 – November 26, 2013, 05:56:20 pm

Brrr! I took my IR thermometer out and couldn't find anything that was any warmer than anything else, and NONE of it was warm! Between the last time I tried starting the Detroit and when I went out to check the temperature has dropped considerably and the north wind has picked up the same amount. The coach will just have to wait until warmer temperatures return next week.

Re: No start

Reply #9 – November 26, 2013, 06:06:41 pm

Quote from: kb0zke – November 26, 2013, 05:56:20 pm

Brrr! I took my IR thermometer out and couldn't find anything that was any warmer than anything else, and NONE of it was warm! Between the last time I tried starting the Detroit and when I went out to check the temperature has dropped considerably and the north wind has picked up the same amount. The coach will just have to wait until warmer temperatures return next week.

$55 delivered gets you going. Make sure your outlet can handle 1500 watts. Expect it can but others listed are 1000W. Mfg wants the switch turned off before the engine is cranked. Probably afraid of an air bubble and instant overheat of the rod. Also, if you don't remember to go back and turn it off, the next time you have power, it will turn on and eventually burn out as well as running up a big bill.

Engine Block Heater Cat C9 15 16 Detroit Diesel Heater | eBay

Anyone with any doubts if the block heater is working should buy one of these: kill a watt - Google Search Just plug into the block heater plug and read how many (if any) amps the heater is using.

Pierce

Re: No start

Reply #10 – November 26, 2013, 09:05:25 pm

Thanks, Pierce. That one won't fit our engines, though, unless I missed something. It is for the Series 60 Detroits. I found this one, though: New Engine Block Heater DDV 151B Detroit 6V 71 8V 71 6V 92 8V 92 Cummins 855 N14 that sounds like it will work. 1500W is 12.5A, and I think all of the circuits are 15A. Don't know what else would be on that circuit off-hand, but that should be easy enough to check. I may just order it anyway, just to have on hand when the present one dies.

One of the items on the shopping list is a Kill-A-Watt. I need to stop by Home Depot on Saturday so maybe I can get one there then. That could be a pretty expensive stop, since the main purpose is the new refrigerator, and then there are always lots of other things that seem to want to go home with me.

Re: No start

Reply #11 – November 26, 2013, 09:14:09 pm

To determine if engine block heater is working, unplug it and put a meter across the plug. Zero resistance shows blown. If there is a ohm's resistance reading you have a good heater and using a ohm's law calculation you can determine the wattage.

Re: No start

Reply #12 – November 26, 2013, 09:17:48 pm

Your block heater should be on its own circuit with nothing else on that circuit

Re: No start

Reply #13 – November 26, 2013, 09:29:12 pm

Thanks. I can play with the meter in the morning. Fortunately the coach is parked right outside the front door. Before I go out that way, though, I'm going to cut a safety stand to hold the bed up. I just don't trust it to stay up while I'm leaning in under it. That's probably something I should have done when it was warmer.

Re: No start

Reply #14 – November 26, 2013, 10:20:24 pm

We have been holding our bed up with a PVC pipe with PVC Tee's slipped on both ends without glue. We keep the pipe in the electric area under the bed. And slip it on top of our transfer switch and under the lip of the raised bed to do its job.

Re: No start

Reply #15 – November 26, 2013, 10:48:01 pm

David,

The one you show will NOT work. I know because I replaced ours. The one you show is for different model 6V-92TAs without AC. The mounting bracket for the AC compressor blocks the spot where the block heater would go on some engines. The other spot for Detroits is down low on the block on the driver's side but the silver Detroits left it out of the casting.

If still in doubt, follow the 120V lead from the outlet box to the heater. You should see a round knurled fitting where it goes into the cooling system up high on the drivers side at the rear. The new style has a hex head instead of the round nut and looks nothing like the other one with the flat plate with four bolt holes. Ours has to be the dumbest location ever for a block heater. Since the engine is cold, you won't need to pull the radiator cap off. As I remember, not much coolant will leak out when you R&R.

1500 watts will get the crossover pipe too hot to touch in a few minutes. Too bad it will take way longer for the block.

Let us know if yours is like ours.

Pierce

Re: No start

Reply #16 – November 26, 2013, 11:03:11 pm

Quote from: Barry & Cindy – November 26, 2013, 09:14:09 pm

To determine if engine block heater is working, unplug it and put a meter across the plug. Zero resistance shows blown. If there is a ohm's resistance reading you have a good heater and using a ohm's law calculation you can determine the wattage.

Barry,
Do you mean infinite resistance (open) = blown element, low resistance (an Ohm or so) = good element?
Neal

Re: No start

Reply #17 – November 27, 2013, 09:02:48 am

Quote

Thanks. I can play with the meter in the morning. Fortunately the coach is parked right outside the front door. Before I go out that way, though, I'm going to cut a safety stand to hold the bed up. I just don't trust it to stay up while I'm leaning in under it. That's probably something I should have done when it was warmer.

David, To hold the bed up I use a painters pole or the type that you use with a wash brush. You can adjust it to any length. When not in use it lays alongside the bed on the street side.
Gary B

Re: No start

Reply #18 – November 27, 2013, 09:37:55 am

Being somewhat of a cheapskate, my first "shopping" place will be all the stuff I've accumulated around here. I'm guessing that there will be something out in the shop or garage that will work. Of course, the ultimate would be a live helper who can not only hold up the lid but also hand me stuff and take stuff, but Jo Ann doesn't like cold, so she will only help when it is warm. Another cup of coffee and out I go.

Re: No start

Reply #19 – November 27, 2013, 09:44:47 am

RE: Barry, Do you mean infinite resistance (open) = blown element, low resistance (an Ohm or two) = good element? Neal

That is correct. Using Ohm's Law Calculator, enter volts = 120, resistance from your ohm meter, it will calculate watts & amps.
Ohm's Law Calculator

For example 10 ohms of 120 volts is 12 amps or 1,440 watts.

And on most block heaters, the cord is replaceable by itself, if the problem is in the cord.

Also hydronic heated coaches can probably do without electric block heater.

Re: No start

Reply #20 – November 27, 2013, 11:52:48 am

Quote from: Barry & Cindy – November 27, 2013, 09:44:47 am

RE: Barry, Do you mean infinite resistance (open) = blown element, low resistance (an Ohm or two) = good element? Neal

That is correct. Using Ohm's Law Calculator, enter volts = 120, resistance from your ohm meter, it will calculate watts & amps.
Ohm's Law Calculator

For example 10 ohms of 120 volts is 12 amps or 1,440 watts.

And on most block heaters, the cord is replaceable by itself, if the problem is in the cord.

Also hydronic heated coaches can probably do without electric block heater.

Barry,

Just replacing the cord can be a problem as some of the later block heaters are of a different design and the cords are not interchangeable. This was true on our 6V-92TA. Our new block heater included a cord to match.

Pierce

Re: No start

Reply #21 – November 27, 2013, 12:12:17 pm

They used to sell propane powered block heaters years ago. Do any of you know if those work well? Do they use a lot of battery power? I presume they have a small electric pump.

Re: No start

Reply #22 – November 27, 2013, 01:03:42 pm

Thanks to Pierce for the link to the new heater. I went out this morning and verified that I did have electricity to the outlet. I then checked the resistance on the heater and found it open. The cord doesn't look to be in great shape, so whether the problem is the cord, the actual element, or both, I decided to replace both cord and element. Wonder of wonders, it looks like it ought to be a pretty simple project. Of course, I've been fooled before, but it looks like it is a simple matter of unplugging the cord (already done), disconnecting the other end from the element (looks like it just unscrews), run new cord in place of old, and pull out element out and replace with new, connect new cord, plug in, flip switch and see what happens.

Now, what can possibly go wrong? No, I don't want a list - I can already see all sorts of possible hazards. At any rate this looks like a pretty simple project.

Re: No start

Reply #23 – November 27, 2013, 01:22:43 pm

On my coach there was a pretty big loss of coolant so you might want to make sure you have some.

Re: No start

Reply #24 – November 27, 2013, 01:27:01 pm

David,

Some of the problem has to do with the design of the old heater. It could easily leak coolant onto the small probes (for lack of a better word) and cause resistance there. That, in turn caused high temps that caused oxidation and damage to the area. The new one you order will be one piece so won't have the potential problem the old one had. For Detroit operators, if you are gradually loosing coolant, check the knurled nut area on the block heater as it was seeping on ours.

David, if you have not done the installation before, use a little teflon pipe compound on the threads of the new one when you install it. And, yes, this is one that is going to be easy. Thanks again for the excellent photo you sent. Might upload it for other 2 cycle owners.

Pierce

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