Large slide moves in.

Topic: Large slide moves in. (Read 7532 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #125 – January 28, 2014, 06:09:20 pm

Quote from: Dave and Nancy Abel – January 28, 2014, 05:56:42 pm

Howdy Brad and Christine,
Congrats on getting this slide issue resolved!!! You have done a outstanding job with documentation and explanations. Although, we don't have a slide, I think, this string would give lots of folks confidence to tackle the slide creep problem.
Good Luck, Dave and Nancy A

Thanks, Dave and Nancy. I was filled with apprehension every step of the way and proceeded at a snail's pace with care, mostly because neither Foretravel nor RnR could identify and fix the problem, but I was tired of having no slide in a coach that I had bought specifically to have the slide.

Although I devoted 3 months to this process, it really is a fairly simple and quick job. Getting the errant part identified is really about 2 hours worth of actual work with 2 testing processes, and then if it turns out to be a cylinder, removal and replacement of a cylinder, along with re-synching the system, takes only about another 2-3 hours.

I just hope to provide a solution and encouragement to others with 2002s.

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #126 – January 28, 2014, 07:08:20 pm

Thanks Brad - I knew that you had the time line documented and if I read through the thread I would derive the answer but thought I would ask as I am lazy.

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #127 – January 29, 2014, 10:08:45 pm

After seeing my slide still completely out after 30 hours now, today I sent a heartfelt thanks to Joe Portelli of HWH for all his help, reassurance and guidance. I sure couldn't/wouldn't have done this without him and his guidance. HWH has my loyalty, that's for sure.

I also spent part of the morning with my friend, getting an Isolation Kit installed in his 2002 to identify his issue. Hope it will be just a leaky solenoid, but I fear it may be the same lower rear cylinder.

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #128 – January 30, 2014, 02:40:52 pm

New section of the slide creep issues. As you put the document together, Scott, maybe we can branch off with the solenoid repair, as that is what we have discovered on this second 2002. The Isolation Kit is really the first step in diagnosis and although his room creep seemed very similar to mine, it turns out his is the "other issue"...the solenoid valve(s).

We installed the $108 isolation kit in his coach yesterday, and 24 hours later, we now see a reading of 2500 PSI on the gauge. Also of note is that the kit removes and plugs the hose for the test, so there is NO room creep indicated at all. That 2500 psi only is pushing on the gauge.

Clearly this coach needs new solenoid(s) and not cylinder repair. I have put together and sent another email to Joe at HWH asking a few questions that need clarification. As soon as he answers, I will post it here. Then we will have the entire diagnosis and repair process for whichever failure causes room creep.

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #129 – January 30, 2014, 02:47:06 pm

Brad - Can do. Will use headings and sub headings somehow. With the Table of Contents up front any reader should be able to focus on either problem. Testing is important. I guess I should follow the testing process to eliminate the possibility of faulty solenoids. As stated some of mine have been replaced but do not know which ones. When you are finished with the test kit can it be sent to me? If so please advise my costs. At this juncture we should consider splitting costs.

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #130 – January 30, 2014, 03:25:24 pm

I returned my test kit to HWH per Joe's instructions and he refunded it's cost, leaving me with only freight to pay each way. My friend Dave just got his yesterday and plans on keeping it as near as I can tell. The kit is certainly valuable to use as it is a simple process to install it. I actually wish I'd have kept mine.

As far as faulty solenoids being replaced, from what I've experienced, repair folks are guessing and not always doing as the HWH instructions state. Testing beats guessing.

At this point, I'm not positive if it is the Cylinder Extend or the Cylinder Retract solenoid that causes the creeping in. But with both of us having the same problem, one of our coach's had the Retract replaced, while the other's Extend was replaced! And it looks like my friend had his bedroom slide solenoid replaced instead of the main room. The HWH document says that when one valve has been diagnosed as a failure, both of the room valves should be replaced. Whether that is still their thinking, 10 years after those documents were printed, is something I've asked Joe to verify. The HWH price is listed as $182 for the valves on the most recent price list I have.

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #131 – January 30, 2014, 04:17:41 pm

Put in a call to HWH - Randy has been my contact. I will review issue with him and ask for the Kit to be sent.

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #132 – January 30, 2014, 04:30:18 pm

One other point I missed. The solenoids that came with our coaches have 1/4" nuts to release the pressure. (Some of us got 1/4" socket tools in our Foretravel boxes, and others have the 1/4" socket built into the end of the dipstick.) But sometime in the past, HWH changed the valve construction so that the new ones have white plastic levers that just rotate up and out to release pressure and swivel down to close. If you have a mixture of valves, then you can see exactly which ones have been replaced.

The solenoids you see above the motor are the Cylinder Retract Valves. The ones above the tank are the Cylinder Extend Valves. I can't tell you how many times I've said the wrong thing, since when the cylinder is extending, it means the room is retracting. Arghh.

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #133 – January 30, 2014, 05:59:44 pm

TT Randy and the test kit is on the way. BTW; you are famous. Randy talked to Joe and he had mentioned your name to me.

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #134 – January 30, 2014, 08:31:35 pm

Famous probably means "annoying pest". LOL. I haven't had my last two emails responded to by Joe. I assume he is probably very busy. I got to talk to him on the phone only once thru this entire process, but he sounded very cheery and helpful. He always apologized for any delay in responding to the emails, and I assured him I wasn't in any hurry.

I think he thought he was finally done with me, but this second coach has left me with different questions for him, so I've had to bug him yet again.

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #135 – January 30, 2014, 10:26:23 pm

Revised doc sent to you. Forgot to add the solenoid description above - sorry. I can add it when you review the doc.

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #136 – January 31, 2014, 12:26:59 am

Quote from: Carol & Scott – January 30, 2014, 10:26:23 pm

Revised doc sent to you. Forgot to add the solenoid description above - sorry. I can add it when you review the doc.

I'm kind of glad Dave has the opposite problem, so we can put the entire process into one piece...cylinder or solenoid.

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #137 – January 31, 2014, 11:15:04 am

I can now see it "HWH opens new repair facility in Lake Havasu"

John H

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #138 – January 31, 2014, 01:08:59 pm

Quote from: John Haygarth – January 31, 2014, 11:15:04 am

I can now see it "HWH opens new repair facility in Lake Havasu"
John H

LOL. Well, what's an old retired prison guard to do with his time...LOL.

I got my responses from Joe. It will take a bit of time before we can post our hands-on experience with the valve replacement, but here are my advance questions with Joe's answers:

Qestion 1. "Both the MI95.7603 Service Bulletin and the MI15.9502 Instruction sheets say that when a room is creeping in or out and it is determined a solenoid valve is at fault, both the Cylinder Extend and Cylinder Retract valves for that room should be replaced... Now that we have completed the test and know we have a leaking valve, SHOULD WE REALLY REPLACE BOTH VALVES? Or does this indicate only one of the valves need replacement? If so, which one? Extend or Retract?
Answer:
"If this coach is a four cylinder slide like your coach and the room was creeping in and you had the gauge on the manifold and it went to 2500 PSI then I have to say it is a pretty good bet that cylinder extend valve is the issue.... The sheets that you have seen do say to replace both of them, but honestly there is no reason to. We did that mostly for warranty purposes, it was easier to tell people to replace both of the valves instead of trying to explain which one to change. If this is a four cylinder slide the one you will want to replace is the cylinder extend valve, should be the one over the tank for that room. If you want to replace both valve that is fine but in my opinion it is a waste of money."

Question 2. Does HWH rebuild these valves, or do we need to buy new one(s)? I also want to verify that the correct part number is RAP90729 - Solenoid VLV Small QR.
Answer: "Yes we can repair those valves if you want to send it in for repair. The maximum it will cost for the repair is going to be $127.40 plus freight and it will take about a week or so to turn the part around. If you decide to send the part in you will need to call in here like you did for the cylinder and get an RGA#. Keep in mind that is the maximum it will cost for the repair. If it is just a bad seat or something like that it will not even come close to that.... If you want to replace the valve the RAP90729 would be the valve to use. It would cost you $182.00 each plus freight and we do have them in stock."

Question 3. Will opening the Retract AND Extend valves allow for this 2500 psi to be released so we can safely remove the kit? Clearly we don't want to try to take off the isolation kit under that much pressure.
Answer: "If you want to bleed the pressure off of the pressure gauge before you remove it you can open the cylinder retract valve (one over the motor) to bleed the pressure down."

Question 4. It looks like the valves just screw out and the replacements screw back in. I understand we need to make sure all old O-rings come out. It would appear to me that if the room is retracted (cylinders all extended) while the swap was made, the fluid loss would be minimized. Is that correct? Is there a recommended tool to do this?
Answer: "We do have a tool to remove them with but honestly I always just used Channel locks to remove them and put them back in. I will however for warn you that SOMETIMES when you remove the valve the seat stays in block. The way you know if the seat is in the block is when you remove the old valve and there is a sharp point on the end of the valve the seat is in the block. The way to get it out is to screw the old valve back on four complete revolutions and use a screw driver or something like that and go between the block and the valve and pop it out. DO NOT remove the seat off the new valve or the repaired valve to screw it on. If you do that you mess up all adjustments on the valve and the valve would have to come back in for repair or be replaced again."

And one final comment from Joe: "Before you change any of these valves you want to open both emergency releases on the valves to bleed all pressure down before removing them. It really doesn't matter if the room is in or out. "

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #139 – February 01, 2014, 08:39:10 am

Got it.

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #140 – February 02, 2014, 08:43:09 am

Brad - Do you know what year HWH changed over to the new solenoid design?

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #141 – February 02, 2014, 01:19:35 pm

Quote from: Carol & Scott – February 02, 2014, 08:43:09 am

Brad - Do you know what year HWH changed over to the new solenoid design?

Not specifically. I can tell you that the "Information Insert Hydraulic Solenoid Valve Identification sheet (MP84.9999) describes that the "cam release style valves are direct replacements for all previous styles of HWH hydraulic solenoid valves". It has a date of 28FEB11. So I expect that it in the ballpark of the change date...but that is just a guess. There is another Information Insert that discusses replaceing the plastic cams (MI15.0063) and it is dated 24FEB12.

If you need any of these documents, they can be found by going to Welcome to HWH Corporation and just entering them in the search box. Sometimes the "." is omitted, sometimes not.

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #142 – February 02, 2014, 03:15:15 pm

Our coach, according to Holiday World in Houston, had solenoids replaced for the large slide in Aug. of 2012. Of course the Work Order doesn't say exactly which ones were replaced and they are of the old style. I guess that the old style could have been in the pipeline and they were used instead of the new cam style?

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #143 – February 02, 2014, 06:57:57 pm

Quote from: Carol & Scott – February 02, 2014, 03:15:15 pm

Our coach, according to Holiday World in Houston, had solenoids replaced for the large slide in Aug. of 2012. Of course the Work Order doesn't say exactly which ones were replaced and they are of the old style. I guess that the old style could have been in the pipeline and they were used instead of the new cam style???

Well.... My solenoid was replaced 6/13 and I suspect they had it in stock because we didn't have to wait or pay freight for it. It was the new style. My friend Dave has the new style, replaced at the same facility, at LEAST 6 months prior to mine. I don't think there is any real difference in function at all...just simpler to release and close than the others. But the fact that they have had to issue a bulletin on how to put the new-style back together might indicate that folks are still being ham-handed with them.

In any case, now that we know the process, if someone wants a service department to do this work, at least you know to ask them "What did the Isolation Kit pressure read after the bleed-through test?" before letting them just throw you a $200 part or 2 that may or may not fix the issue. And if you get a dumb look or some story that it "is always the solenoid valve(s)", then you can assess their credibility for yourself.

If I knew then what I know now, I would have had them give me back my old one (that turned out to not be the problem) so I could have sent it in to HWH for repair to have as a spare. Probably would have been a cheap rebuild if nothing was wrong with it.

I'm not sure, but aren't these the same valves in use on the leveling system?

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #144 – February 05, 2014, 08:21:00 pm

Got my kit today. Will take a look at the maniforld and try to figgure out where it goes. Wish me luck.

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #145 – February 05, 2014, 10:24:16 pm

Here's your key document. Refer to room location and figure 2A. Another indicator is that the large room uses a larger hose at the manifold. Looking at the motor, the connection above the valve in the rightmost position is what you will take apart.

Re-wording their instructions,
EXTEND the slide.
Take the connection off the manifold
Put the valve on the hose. BE SURE IT IS OPEN!
Put the valve (and hose) back on the manifold
Have someone hold the EXTEND button and NOT RELEASE IT until you fully close the valve.
Take the connection off of the manifold, and put in the steel plug (plug is just cautionary, as the valve is closed)
Screw the gauge onto the manifold where you took the hose off.

Next morning, pray for a reading on the gauge of 500PSI+. That will tell you your testing is done and you need a new Room Extend solenoid valve (on the back of the manifold, over the motor, pretty much behind where the manifold connection was).

PS, another confirmation it is the valve at fault will be that you will also see that your slide has NOT crept in...if you see the pressure having gone into the gauge instead of pushing the room in.

Have fun, and you have my phone number!

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #146 – February 06, 2014, 09:15:00 am

Thanks Brad - Won't get into it today. Tomorrow. Thanks for the doc. Don't be surprised if I give you a call.

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #147 – February 08, 2014, 02:19:27 pm

Attached the valve test kit. the hardest part was getting my fat hands in that small place with an open end wrench to loosen the hose and attaching the needle valve assembly and then removing it and attaching the gauge. After about 30 mins the slide is slowly creeping in and the gauge shows "0". I will leave the Gauge attached for a few more hours. Soooo - I it looks like it's my turn to remove the dinette seats and cylinder for repair. All things considered the process is not too bad - so far. I will call HWH on Monday AM and check rebuild turnaround time.

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #148 – February 08, 2014, 10:44:48 pm

I hope it turns out to be the one under the dinette...if not the even easier upper cylinders. Removing the couch looked like it would be an awful pain. But, yup, if it creeps in with the isolation kit in place, it isn't the solenoid.

When you remove the isolation kit, if there is still no pressure showing, you should not even have to release the valves to safely remove it. There should be only the same tiny little bit of fluid loss that you experienced in installing the kit.

On the positive side, you won't have tight quarters to work in for cylinder removal. I think the solenoids would take less time but be harder to do with big hands. LOL.

When you get around to needing it, I'll ship you one of my remaining "sample" RotorClips.

Re: Large slide moves in.

Reply #149 – February 11, 2014, 01:59:09 pm

We have ordered the replacement cylinder this AM. Should be here in 12/14 days - might ship this week. The shop must build. The 4 cylinders are all interchangeable so we decided to get a new one and forego the next testing process of capping and plugging. We will replace the lower left cylinder and if it is not the correct one we will exchange with the next most likely cylinder. Randy @ HWH seems to feel that this is a good strategy. We will return the old cylinder to HWH for a 30% credit against the new one. I will also return the Test Kit for an additional credit - so the cost won't be too bad. We should be able to remove and replace the Old cylinder in about 4 to 5 hours total. This way the interior should be retracted and in disarray for one day only.

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