Botched AirForce One install!

Topic: Botched AirForce One install! (Read 1806 times) previous topic - next topic

Botched AirForce One install!

January 24, 2014, 11:59:12 pm

I mentioned in another thread that we bought an AirForce One towed braking system at the "Q". The M & G system won't fit in our Honda Fit. This thing isn't cheap (none of them are of course, unless you luck out on eBay Craig's List for used one), at $1,600 installed. I mentioned in that previous post that I had to remount relay module and air tank for the AF1 and reroute the air lines away from moving and hot parts. Well, it turns out that I will have to do more than that to make this system useful, as opposed to a liability. They tested without the toad hooked up using a long air line and it did appear actuate the brake pedal and release it. Well, today when we hooked up the towed and tested the lights and such, it all looked good. As we started to pull out on the highway from the dirt shoulder, I felt like there was more resistance than there should be. I asked the copilot if she was sure the parking brake was off, and she said was. Well, I pushed down on the pedal on the right and started on the highway. The coach started to accelerate like we were going up a slight grade and we heard a distant high pitched squealing sound. I looked up at the towed cam and, to my horror, saw blue smoke belching out from the rear of the towed!

I had probably gone less than a 100ft on the highway and fortunately still had a wide unobstructed shoulder to get off on. We dashed back to the towed, and sure enough the parking brake was off, the shift selector was in neutral, and the brake pedal was not noticably depressed (can't say the same for myself at this stage of the game

), the key was in the appropriate position. I checked everything, got back in the coach while Tys stood beside the towed and started to move and got the frowny face, arms crossed, stop signal immediately. I disconnected the coach air system from the towed and we tried again. This time the wheels rolled freely.
We left it that way and proceeded to drive to Lake Havasu with no further issues (and no supplemental braking system). I am puzzled to say the least... the AF1 system works with an air cylinder actuator that looks like a miniature version of the original Unicoaches drop down step air cylinders. the evidence suggests that the control box must act on the power brake vacuum booster as well. How else could the brakes remain applied even though the pedal is released? I admit that the desire to get under way kept me from closely examining the installation on the car part of the system, but it now appears that I am going to have to educate myself on the proper function of this unit to figure out what is going on. When I reputed the air lines on the coach, I DIDN'T CHANGE THE CONNECTIONS! It was as the installers left it. I didn't really look too close at the car part of the install (after all they assured me that they had installed hundreds of these systems and more than one Honda Fit), but I could see some poor execution just glancing at it.
Not a happy camper at this point... but very reluctant to take it to a so called expert after what I saw done on the coach. I should have saved myself $400 and done the install myself when I get to a place where I can work on it. Now I will have to do that anyway. I will have to get with the SMI tech support people (AirForce One parent company) to figure out whether the control box is bad or it is improperly hooked up.
Don

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #1 – January 25, 2014, 05:03:51 am

Don,

We have the AF1 and have had no problems. We always do the hitch locked and wheels freely rolling test when we first pullout each morning.

Ours also came with a remote alarm that sounds if the toad brakes are on (with a few second delay). It's a little annoying when you are sitting at a light for awhile so I buried the beeper in the overhead cabinet above the driver (It cuts the volume down to a manageable level) and I also often use the parking brake at stop lights which does not engage the toad brakes.

My brother's came with an LED that mounts on the toad mirror that is visible in the RV TV camera that supplies the same warning function.

I think our install is completely independent of the toad except for the electrical signal for the remote indicator. Hope you get things worked out.

Rich

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #2 – January 25, 2014, 09:00:34 am

Don, I use the Brake Master system in my Honda CRV. It's also an air cylinder mechanism, and can't be all that different from yours. It is important to be sure that the brake boost vacuum canister has been drained before you begin towing. On my rig I just push the brake pedal a few times until it gets noticeably hard before I attach the air cylinder. Another important check is to be sure the air cylinder is adjusted so that it keeps the brake pedal fully retracted when at rest. Even just the weight of the cylinder can cause some depression of the brake pedal. The last thing I would check is the "break-away" switch. If that assembly is defective it will lock the Toad brakes. On my rig I put a switch on the dash of the Honda to divert the brake pedal stop light signal and I routed it to an LED installed in the coach driving area. That way I can see when the Toad brakes are being applied or not. (just be sure to put the switch back to it's "normal" position when you unhook the Toad. Don't ask how I know!) Glad you didn't do too much damage.

Dave VanAmburg

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #3 – January 25, 2014, 09:07:28 am

@Don I know your pain... Hopefully you get it resolved with only a little pain.

see ya
ken

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #4 – January 25, 2014, 10:12:47 am

If looking for a ray of sunshine, Honda fit is about 2600 lbs, so you are legal in most states (under 3000 lbs) and my heavier 40 U-320 with slide towing a slightly heavier honda element has no issues stopping without any braking system. In hindsight, just doing without braking system at all might have been your best bet.

Good luck Don, sorry for your hassles, and I know you will figure it out. Hopefully you didn't flat spot your tires. I pulled my Element with Parking brake on two times and ruined two sets of rear brakes and rotors, luckily no fire from brakes and tires rolled and brakes didn't overheat rim and bead to blow tire

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #5 – January 25, 2014, 01:23:13 pm

Ouch!

Unfortunately, you need the towed vehicle brakes in California.

Did your installer not install the brakes on indicator led? Mine is beside the MDX left headlight, under the lens. Clearly visible from time rearview camera.

You know who did my install, Redlands Truck and RV, using my AFO purchased on eBay, and they did a great job for a reasonable price. Not too far from your home base, might be worth having them look it over.

Just be sure to get a price before they do anything. I asked them to turn an awning lock I was having trouble with, and two minutes on a ladder cost me $100. But they did free it up so I can now turn it with the wand.

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #6 – January 25, 2014, 01:51:58 pm

The LED indicator was installed by us on the towed rear view mirror. I could see it from the backup camera during our testing. What we didn't do was a rolling check to make sure the wheels turned freely. My reasoning was that if the towed brake pedal isn't pressed, the wheels on the towed should turn freely. That is what is weird... the brake pedal appears to be on the upper stop after the coach brakes have been released (I checked by reaching my hand up underneath the dash), but the brakes are still applied while the air line is connected. I tested the breakaway cable switch before we ever started and it appears to function normally. I still haven't had a chance to investigate further yet, but we found to our dismay that the four brand new tires put on at Herman Powers in NAC are toast... Another $650 will put it right, but I won't hook up the $#%#%$&@ AF1 again until I figure this out.
Tim, at this point I would have to say that I agree with you. The reason I sprung for the system is that Canada apparently requires it and we plan on going up there in the spring, California not withstanding. Just trying to put this experience behind me as soon as possible. Their botched install or defective unit, whichever it may has ended up costing me $1050 so far, and I still have to remedy it myself!
Don

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #7 – January 25, 2014, 02:36:47 pm

Check your messages got my phone number. I had the same problem.

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #8 – January 25, 2014, 02:47:58 pm

That should say check your messages and see if you got my phone number. I had the same problem and I think I can explain it better on the phone than I can in text.

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #9 – January 25, 2014, 03:00:11 pm

Don - sorry to hear of your problems. We use the Roadmaster Brakemaster on our Fit. FOT did the install with the breakaway system and it has preformed flawlessly for 20k. I have also felt the expensive pain of replacing Fit tires due to their unusual size - big buck for such small tires... Anyhow, once you get your setup functioning you'll find that the Fit tows well.

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #10 – January 25, 2014, 03:16:55 pm

Thanks Mark... unusual size to say the least! We are lucky that Discount Tires has four in stock. Herman Powers in Nac had to order them and the selection was limited. The Fit has been towing perfectly this whole trip before the AF1 install, never felt the need for more braking at all. Need to be 50 state and Canada legal though...
Don

Quote from: Mark Benko – January 25, 2014, 03:00:11 pm

Don - sorry to hear of your problems. We use the Roadmaster Brakemaster on our Fit. FOT did the install with the breakaway system and it has preformed flawlessly for 20k. I have also felt the expensive pain of replacing Fit tires due to their unusual size - big buck for such small tires... Anyhow, once you get your setup functioning you'll find that the Fit tows well.

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #11 – January 25, 2014, 04:03:14 pm

Don,
Too bad they screwed it up. Sounds like you had a bad installer.
If you overlooked my post, you should pay particular attention to how my brake activation light is actuated (separate switch).
Also, after all toad attachments are done DW walks along side the toad (px side) for about 50 feet as I watch in the mirror for any signal from her. We have always hooked up level and never need to use the toad parking brake.

Good luck,
Rick D.

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #12 – January 25, 2014, 04:32:22 pm

In defence of the Air Force 1 brake system, I had MOT install it, both on the coach and the F150, never been an issue. No recall of the cost for the system and installing, but it works so I feel happy.
I also tried the M&G system, but upon looking at both the unit and the instructions, there was no way it would fit without massive inner fender cut/rework/moving circuit breaker box, when time to sell it, would look so bad. So sent back for a cheerful refund (I think).
Bottom line after about 25,000+ towing miles, not a wimper from me or the F150.
Dave M

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #13 – January 25, 2014, 04:49:56 pm

I had MOT install an Air Force One too. Cost 1200 for the system and 937 to install.

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #14 – January 25, 2014, 06:32:05 pm

Its beginning to sound like it might be cheaper to change cars. The M-G works on a Subaru.

Don, come on over to Tucson. We will get it fixed.

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #15 – January 25, 2014, 09:12:35 pm

Wonder if the air tap on the coach is for the park brake release rather than the service brakes

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #16 – January 25, 2014, 09:26:27 pm

Parking brake air supply... Sounds like a real possibility, but it doesn't seem to explain the brakes being full on without the towed brake pedal being depressed or the red LED indicator not being on while the brakes are locked up, does it??? I will need to get out the Meritor manual and see which supply is the parking brake release air. Thanks for the suggestion...
Don

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #17 – January 25, 2014, 10:17:41 pm

Don you might want to call AirForce One and explain your situation. I'm pretty sure they will do whatever is required to get you going. One bad review can really hurt their business and if they have a rogue installer out there they will want to know. They could also point you to a dealer that has more experience with diesel pushers. At least give them the chance to make it right. Just present your case and list your expectations. Just keep your cool (which should be easy for you!)

My .02.

see ya
ken

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #18 – January 25, 2014, 10:31:40 pm

Thanks Ken,
I do plan to call them but I would like to figure out what went wrong before I present my case. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of the parking brake air supply being the culprit. If the vacuum booster is activated from the air supply from the coach and the control module is getting its signal for the break pedal servo and brake light indicator from the brake light wire from the coach, that may explain it. If I can't figure it out definitively, I will get with their tech-support and try to determine whether is install problem or defective module. Either way, in order to make it right they would have to rebate me the cost of the new tires. Somehow I don't think that will happen, but at this point I will settle for a working system.
Don

Quote from: kenhat – January 25, 2014, 10:17:41 pm

Don you might want to call AirForce One and explain your situation. I'm pretty sure they will do whatever is required to get you going. One bad review can really hurt their business and if they have a rogue installer out there they will want to know. They could also point you to a dealer that has more experience with diesel pushers. At least give them the chance to make it right. Just present your case and list your expectations. Just keep your cool (which should be easy for you!)

My .02.

see ya
ken

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #19 – January 25, 2014, 11:08:00 pm

Here are a couple of pictures of one of the trashed tires...

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #20 – January 25, 2014, 11:16:07 pm

Ouch! That hurts. I feel your pain. See some of my previous adventures...

see ya
ken

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #21 – January 25, 2014, 11:28:05 pm

AirForce One is a good product and most are happy with it. But it is one of the most complicated tow brakes on the market and requires quite a bit of installation. They use large air brake relay valve that makes two taps to air lines on the motorhome and send another air line to the toad. Because they use a small low power air cylinder to pull the brake pedal, it requires a vacuum pump (that drains toad battery a little) to create power brake vacuum normally created by a running gasoline engine. And this pump is tapped into the toad vacuum line.

We all like the simple procedure when getting ready to tow, but I am turned off by the many parts that have to work. The company does not promote the details of what it takes to do its job.

By the way, we purchased a Roadmaster brake light bracket and switch that turns on motorhome dash LED whenever the brake pedal is not at full off/up position. It requires a wire connection from toad to motorhome dash. I see this switch has also been installed by other Forum members. It operates completely independently from any braking system and lets us know when toad brake pedal has been pressed and when it is fully up.

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #22 – January 26, 2014, 12:00:54 am

I purchased an Airforce One from an online source and installed it myself. The instructions were easy to follow and it was a simple install. It took me a couple of days, but I choose to be slow and methodical. The system works great. I installed a 'red' light on the coach dash that illuminates whenever the 'towed' brakes are actuated, which is rare because I use the retarder most of the time except for complete stops.

The service brakes on the 'towed' are proportionally controlled by the foot pressure on the coach brake pedal. The braking is entirely pneumatic. There are no electrics involved.

However, the emergency brake function on the 'towed' requires 12 volts. If the pin in the breakaway switch is pulled out of the switch by the lanyard that is attached to the coach, a solenoid valve in the 'operating unit' (the black box installed in the towed) functions to set and lock the brakes in the 'towed'.

Perhaps the problem is in the breakaway switch circuit. The breakaway switch has an orange and a blue wire. The orange wire should be connected to a constant 12 volt power source on the 'towed' through a 15 amp fuse that is supplied with the kit. The blue wire should be connected to the blue wire exiting the 'black box'. The white wire exiting the 'black box' should be connected to a good ground on the 'towed'. The electric circuit is that simple.

The brake light switch is a separate system.

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #23 – January 26, 2014, 12:24:42 am

Something else to check.. thanks!
Don

Quote from: GLV – January 26, 2014, 12:00:54 am

However, the emergency brake function on the 'towed' requires 12 volts. If the pin in the breakaway switch is pulled out of the switch by the lanyard that is attached to the coach, a solenoid valve in the 'operating unit' (the black box installed in the towed) functions to set and lock the brakes in the 'towed'.

Perhaps the problem is in the breakaway switch circuit. The breakaway switch has an orange and a blue wire. The orange wire should be connected to a constant 12 volt power source on the 'towed' through a 15 amp fuse that is supplied with the kit. The blue wire should be connected to the blue wire exiting the 'black box'. The white wire exiting the 'black box' should be connected to a good ground on the 'towed'. The electric circuit is that simple.

The brake light switch is a separate system.

Re: Botched AirForce One install or defective module?

Reply #24 – January 26, 2014, 07:00:28 am

Howdy Barry and Cindy,
Is this what you installed? Brake Light Switch Kit - By Roadmaster of course, need to choose the correct vehicle.
Thanks for your input, Dave and Nancy A

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