Stuck on the fuel isle

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Stuck on the fuel isle

October 14, 2014, 05:41:32 pm

I stopped for diesel fuel in Big Spring Texas on our last leg before we hit our home base in Lakewood NM. When I tried to start the coach no dice. Thought it was the aux start relay. Got under there cleaned off the connections tried again no dice. Jumped the solenoid coach started but I toasted my starter. I pulled out the schematic for the aux solenoid now here is the problem. The schematic shows several wires connected to one side of the solenoid. Only one wire on the other side, the wire that goes to the starter. My solenoid had two wire on that side one that has 12VDC on it all the time. The coach has been running this way since we have had it. Seems like it should have toasted the starter a Lon time ago. So the mobile mechanic and I decided that that wire should be on the other terminal so we put it there. When we did I the coach ignition switch was in the on position at all times. Have no clue where this wire is supposed to go and can't understand why the starter did not toast itself a long time ago. My understanding is that the starter is powered only in the start position. What am I missing. I replaced the aux relay because it was no longer functioning. Still waiting to get a starter installed. An yes I am still on the fuel isle, not my idea of a great campground.

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #1 – October 14, 2014, 06:18:19 pm

I wish I could help with the starter wiring but cannot. I am not sure that looking at my wiring would help on your engine?

But you affirmed an important lesson I read just recently on the forum, and am now....from your experience...more determined. I will not shut off the engine while fueling. I will go park.

I had thought I needed to shut it off if i was to let it low idle for a goodly time, what I read and was told. Anyway, someone not long ago admonished about leave it running, they had had the same experience.

Thanks for sharing.

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #2 – October 14, 2014, 06:28:14 pm

Roland, was your boost switch in the on position when you found 12v to this "extra wire"?
Cleaning the aux start solenoid contacts would not have affected the start solenoid under dash as this one (aux) runs off the coach batteries if I remember right. ( now it is a long time since I looked at the drwgs and do not have any here) so I may be wrong. The reason I ask is that maybe it was mistakingly put on this terminal instead of Boost solenoid. Did your boost work before as it should have?
JohnH

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #3 – October 14, 2014, 06:56:05 pm

I always use boost to start the coach, habit. As far as I can tell it worked fine, and as the boost solonoid is next to the aux start solonoid I can see that KT is on the correct side of the solonoid.

Roland

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #4 – October 14, 2014, 07:12:00 pm

To clarify I am referencing the aux solonoid on the isolator board. It is labeled an aux starting solonoid, and according to Fore travel it is made specifically for them. Parts claim that the NAPA solonoid won't last 90 days. I only need it toast 250 miles

Roland

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #5 – October 14, 2014, 07:26:36 pm

Roland,

Assuming you have the U280 12V electrical schematic. If not, I will send you one.

Solenoids generally have two large terminals and one or two smaller terminals. If two smaller, one is ground. Yes, one big terminal is hot all the time. As soon as smaller terminal sees +12V, the solenoid allows high amperage current to flow across the large terminals for as long as you hold the key in the start position. If the solenoid is located on the starter, it will not look like the ignition/boost solenoid. It will supply juice to spin the starter motor and it will also move the starter gear to engage the teeth on the ring gear and spin the engine over.

Here is B.Beam's excellent description: http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/starter_engage_circuit_wiring.html

I don't have the A-4752 remote start wiring diagram.

Pierce

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #6 – October 14, 2014, 07:34:34 pm

Yes I have the schematic and yes that is the way I understand a starting circuit to function. What I cannot understand is how it worked with a hot wire on the starter terminal. The starter should have burned up years ago. Unless that wire goes to a relay that is stuck closed, but that doesn't make much sense either. A mystery and it won't get solved until the hot wire is traced to its source. Don't think I will be shutting down on the duel isle in the future.
Roland

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #7 – October 14, 2014, 07:53:14 pm

The large cable connected to the starter is probably connected to the starter solenoid so it looks to be part of the starter (which it is). The other end of the big cable goes to the positive side of the start batteries so is always hot. Make sense? Wish I were there.

Starter solenoids do occasionally stick and fry the starter. If you jump the large supply cable at the starter to the other side, you can see if the solenoid or starter is bad. Just be careful doing it. Jumping to the small terminal from the supply 12V at the starter should activate the solenoid. If not, it's bad. A auto parts store will have a remote hand held starter switch good for testing the solenoid. Good way to be at a distance and avoid the sparks.

If you have to replace the starter, I'm sure other Cummins owners will give the best advice for types of replacement. Geared or direct. Again, depending on where you are, I like the mom and pop electrical shops over the exchange units from Autozone, etc.

Pierce

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #8 – October 14, 2014, 11:00:29 pm

I understand the layout of that panel with the boost and Aux solenoids on it along with the circuit breakers for AC relay and remote start. They are both easy to rust out etc, but if you think there is a problem with aux solenoid you do not have to go buy a new one just take apart the old one and fix. Screwdriver and hammer is all you need to open then pliers to close again. I have done this a few times now and they all work as should. This is not hard to do and they are very simple in design.Your problems sound like it is something else.
JohnH

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #9 – October 14, 2014, 11:00:56 pm

Quote from: Roland Begin – October 14, 2014, 07:12:00 pm

It is labeled an aux starting solonoid, and according to Fore travel it is made specifically for them.

Roland,

I could be wrong, but I don't think there is anything unique about either of the solenoids on the isolator panel. It is best if they are rated for continuous duty, and sufficiently high amps to handle the load. Something like this would do fine:

Solenoids & Relays | Steel & Phenolic Body Solenoids24213 | Cole Hersee -

Unless you drive around all the time with your BOOST switch on, both solenoids should only see occasional intermittent use, and therefore they should last a long time.

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #10 – October 14, 2014, 11:43:59 pm

Attached is our start sequence list.

I am not clear where you are finding a hot wire and if it is a large diameter battery feed or a smaller signaling wire.

Both Aux relay/solenoid (which is a common solenoid and not built for Foretravel) and starter mounted solenoid have hot engine battery cables.

On ours when Aux is energized by start key position (small wire) the Aux closes and flows engine battery to starter's small wire, which closes starter's solenoid allowing engine battery current to crank starter.

Our Aux solenoid also sends current to our fuel shut off solenoid pull-up coil, which we put a relay on to crank engine without fuel to get the oil pressure up before engine firing.

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #11 – October 15, 2014, 12:30:29 am

John, my aux start relay on that panel was/is bad. I bought a relay at NAPA. I am not in a place where I can rebuild/fix the old one. I did remember your posts and will fix it and put it back in.

Chuck, it was Foretravel that told me that relay was built "special" for them and that the China relay would only last ninety days or so. Will keep the China one for a spare after I repair my old one.

Barry, my aux start relay on the isolator board has two wires on the starter side am done is always hot. I don't know if I have another stuck relay somewhere but it seems to me that there should not be a wire that is hot all the time on that side. The schematics shows only one wire on that side of the relay and that goes to the starter.

Roland

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #12 – October 15, 2014, 09:41:47 am

Roland. I believe that always hot wire goes to your alternator exciter post through a square fuse to the left of the solenoid. And it should be always hot.

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #13 – October 15, 2014, 09:58:28 am

I had one time on my trip from Massachusetts to Arizona when I got no response to the ignition switch on a hot restart. A chat with James T focused on the aux start solenoid, where upon the coach started with no further action. This is the first time this has ever happened in eight years of full-timing.

Needless to say, I never turned off the engine at fuel islands the rest of the way! I carry a spare solenoid, but I can't imagine trying to change it lying on a hot engine in 90 degree heat. Should I change the aux start solenoid now or wait for another no start? Will a solenoid become erratic before it quits all together?

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #14 – October 15, 2014, 11:58:07 am

Brett, my suggestion after working on a few of these solenoids now is YES, either change with new or do as I do and take it apart.
These items are in some crazy places and the weather affects most of them, and especially the relays and circuit breakers next to them for AC etc etc. These are cheap insurances and should be protected from moisture etc.
This issue of problem solenoids has come up so many times that I cannot understand why every owner of a 5 yr old and older FT does not take (or have taken off) these and fixed/ replaced.
It is going to let you down one day and best be while in your driveway or at FT etc
JohnH

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #15 – October 15, 2014, 02:45:32 pm

Ongoing saga, we finally arrived at our home base in NM. However getting here was quite interesting. After Anthony rebuilt and reinstalled my starter, the starter would spin but the coach would not start. Still stuck on the fuel isle. Whatever happened back there destroyed the fuel solenoid. Anthony said he could hook it up so the coach would run and I could get to NM for our appointments. He mechanically closed the solenoid and the coach started right up, and we headed "home". Got here parked the coach turned off the ignition and the thing is still running, had to undo the makeshift solenoid latching device. Now have to find a Cummins Power Club dealer to get me back to original configuration, including a new starter. Fun never ends.

Twig, I have an "exciter" wire on my alternator it works fine and this "mystery" wire is not connected to anything at present. I have no idea how this worked since we owned the coach, if I put it back where it was the starter continues to crank with the key in the on position. If I put it on the other side of the solenoid the dash stays lit with the key in the off position. My thinking is that. It goes to a relay somewhere that is messed up and the best guess is it has something to do with the fuel solenoid..

Roland

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #16 – October 15, 2014, 02:56:08 pm

I am glad you are out of the fuel line. I will say this is not the first time i have seen this happen, well not a starter but a coach in the fuel island not starting. I do not shut my coach down till I am ready to stop for the night if I am driving all day. It is a habit and it rarely idles more then a couple mins as I fuel up or walk the dogs and I usually travel 8 to 10 hours in a day.

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #17 – October 15, 2014, 03:29:20 pm

Congratulations on making it back to the home base! Problems are far easier to resolve when at home instead of on the road.

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #18 – October 15, 2014, 03:34:03 pm

Roland, did you have your AC on when this problem happened as there is a relay on that board that controls ac and comes thru a 15amp circuit breaker to one side of solenoid. It also has a 15 amp circuit breaker on that line too. Just trying to get my head around this problem and remember what is part of that panel.
JohnH

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #19 – October 15, 2014, 04:49:16 pm

It is a standard procedure to use cable ties to hold up fuel solenoid to start and then cut them off to stop engine. We did this for several weeks before we could buy the new larger replacement solenoid. No need to make it a priority.

It sounds like the Aux solenoid was staying closed, either by a bad solenoid or a malfunction on a small start wire before Aux solenoid. Continuous closure of this solenoid will put continuous 12 volts to starter and fuel solenoids, which being designed for intermittent short shots of power, will burn out.

Fuel shut off solenoid has one ground wire and two 12volt wires, one to the pull-up coil from Aux solenoid, and one to the hold coil from Ignition.

We put a relay on the pull-up coil wire and with a dash push button, we have the option to temporarily keep power from pull-up, allowing us to crank a cold engine for several revs to allow lub oil to flow before firing. We hold button in, hold key to start, then let up on button switch.

Did you really sit at a fuel fill island for days? Did they mind or want you to be towed out of the way?

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #20 – October 15, 2014, 05:57:55 pm

If a relay or solenoid goes bad (especially a smaller one like the aux start). A nice jumper wire or even a screwdriver can save the day.

I don't recommend doing the screwdriver trick on the starter for the main engine though.

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #21 – October 15, 2014, 10:08:20 pm

I've run into a similar problem a couple of times now. In both cases I had started the coach, let it idle to build up the air, take in electric, etc., then moved it a short distance and shut down. When I went to start I got nothing. The first time Pierce diagnosed (over the phone) a poor connection. I took all the battery connection apart, cleaned them, and reassembled. Fired right up. The second time I knew what to do. I took all the battery connections apart, cleaned them, and reassembled. No start. As I fiddled with it I noticed (again) that the center connection point where the main ground cable leaves the battery seemed to be loose. I'm going to order new positive and negative battery cables this weekend.

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #22 – October 15, 2014, 11:08:15 pm

Barry yes we were on the fuel isle for forty hours. Not my idea of a good camping spot. And yes the manager knocked on my door and told me he needed that pump pumping fuel. The pumps are monitored by the district office and if they don't pump at least 10 gallons in a 24 hour period all hells bells break loose. Sure enough the district manager showed up unannounced the second afternoon. Explained the situation to him, showed him the texts to and from the mobile mechanic and he was gracious and let us stay, meaning he did not call a wrecker and have us towed away. We were at a Murphy station in Big Spring Texas, needless to say I will be using Murphy as much as possible in the future.

Roland

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #23 – October 15, 2014, 11:19:00 pm

There is another 93 U280 Unihome owner in the park in Lakewood. Although he does not have the same engine, he has the Detroit, and he does not have the SE, I crawled under his coach and looked at his aux starting and boost solenoids. The aux start solenoid has only one wire on one side of the solenoid where mine had two.Don't know where this wire comes from but I will be looking for the other end. I cannot understand how everything worked with that wire on that side pf the aux relay. Sometimes I think I may have hallucinated the connection, but when I look at the diagram I sketched out before I disconnected and cleaned everything it confirms that I am not hallucinating. And it will absoluteley not work with that wire hooked up ANYWHERE on that aux start solenoid.

Roland

Re: Stuck on the fuel isle

Reply #24 – October 15, 2014, 11:29:42 pm

Quote from: John Haygarth – October 15, 2014, 03:34:03 pm

Roland, did you have your AC on when this problem happened as there is a relay on that board that controls ac and comes thru a 15amp circuit breaker to one side of solenoid. It also has a 15 amp circuit breaker on that line too. Just trying to get my head around this problem and remember what is part of that panel.
JohnH

John, my AC does not work. Had FOT look at it twice and it lasted a couple weeks both times. We run the generator and roof air if we need cooling. Long story short, no the AC awitch was not on.

Roland

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