Haldex pump

Topic: Haldex pump (Read 1908 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #25 – December 20, 2014, 11:27:28 am

David,

As you can see in my photo, the shaft comes nowhere close to the end of the colette. Getting the pulley to line up to the crank pulley and tensioner idler are very important.

Pierce

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #26 – December 20, 2014, 11:39:56 am

Pierce, I think that you've pointed out the obvious. The shaft is too short, and no amount of wishing is going to stretch it. If Foretravel can figure out a way to use the two-stage pump (which has the right shaft) then we're in business. If not, I have to get the old pump rebuilt, using the old shaft. That, of course, assumes that the shaft and gear haven't been damaged. If they are fine, then we're in business. If not, we're dead in the water.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #27 – December 20, 2014, 11:41:25 am

That's what I was trying to say. Originally my collet was on about 1/2 way. It would have had to go on another 5/8" or so to be flush with the end of the shaft. The pulley would hit the mounting bolts before that.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #28 – December 20, 2014, 11:50:32 am

@krush The pumps/motors are not all that special. The could be replaced with similar equipment. The problem is finding the similar equipment. If mine failed while at home near my workshop I would definitely try to find an aftermarket replacement pump. You would need the full spec's for the pump to match up to. Once you find the pump/motors you need to make adaptors fit it to your system. The pump that FOT sent me was a direct drop in replacement but the fan motor required an adaptor plate for the motor and an extension for the fan. Both of these just bolted right in for me. Apparently I was lucky they had everything!

From what I've seen FOT did a lot of experimenting back in the early 90's coaches when they went to the side radiator. I've seen several different setups in the few coaches I've looked at. If I make it to Quartzsite this year maybe we need to do a "I'll show you mine if you show yours" with all the coaches there.

All of the pumps/motors I've seen have been aluminum body with steel gears (easy to check with a magnet). When the body wears out the pump/motor has to be replaced. You can buy time by replacing seals but don't really think that will last very long. From the posts I've seen I'd say 15 to 20 years is the life span you can expect out of hydraulics. If your coach is in that lifespan range and you are running original equipment I'd keep a close eye out for leakage at the pump pulley and/or on inside of the radiator fan.

Best advise I can give is to buy a http://www.amazon.com/AGPtek%C2%AE-Professional-Digital-Tachometer-Contact/dp/B004Q8L894/. Measure you fan speed and keep as a reference. If you see it going down in the future you'll know pump/motor replacement is on the horizon.

@David as I've said previously sorry for all the trouble you are having. Been there done that you will survive!

see ya
ken

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Re: Haldex pump

Reply #29 – December 20, 2014, 12:23:15 pm

Thanks for all the advice and sympathy. Yes, this is a set-back, but not a fatal one. We're safe, have full hook-ups, and are in an area that we want to explore some anyway. Tomorrow we're going to get up early and drive to Stillwater so we can go to church at the place where we're supposed to be. At least they will know that we really exist. Monday Foretravel should have an answer as to whether we can use the two-stage pump and then we'll know more.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #30 – December 20, 2014, 12:58:10 pm

A couple of video's you should watch

Take off the pulley

QD Bushing Installation - Gates Corporation - YouTube

Size the pump

How to Measure Cubic Inch Displacement in a Gear Pump - YouTube

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #31 – December 20, 2014, 01:02:05 pm

Anyone know the approx CFM of the stock fan or double fans? Trying to match possible 12V fan CFM to see what is feasible.

Pierce

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #32 – December 20, 2014, 01:14:44 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – December 20, 2014, 01:02:05 pm

Anyone know the approx CFM of the stock fan or double fans? Trying to match possible 12V fan CFM to see what is feasible.

I highly doubt this is feasible. The city bus I owned had two massive 24v on the roof for the A/C condenser. They had massive wires going to them and the bus had a gear drivel 300+amp 24v alternator.

The HP required to move all that air is significant. And the problem is, at 12V, that HP results in a lot of amps!

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #33 – December 20, 2014, 01:36:20 pm

The type of coupler used on the pump are the easiest to remove. The first thing to do is get a tap and clean out the push holes then put in
the push bolts and push it apart. Use never seize or oil on the push bolts and it should just push off. If you have the push bolts as tight as you dare and it
hasn't pushed off, use a hammer and a punch and hit the outer collar. I've never had one not come apart. When the outer collar move back take a screw driver
and put into the slot of the inner collar and tap it in to spread the collar from the shaft and that will loosen it and then just pull it of.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #34 – December 20, 2014, 02:12:30 pm

David,

The 2nd stage of the 2 stage pump could be connected to the tank supply and then just returned to the tank as a last resort.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #35 – December 20, 2014, 02:44:02 pm

David, as I have not seen any pictures of your set up is there any way that collet and pulley can be put on shaft in reverse so it may bring the pully inline with the others for belt? Thosetapered inserts can be put in backwards and that usually moves the pully further out?
Just trying to think of alternatives.
JohnH

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #36 – December 20, 2014, 11:50:19 pm

Because of this thread, I went to look at my hydraulic system today. It's really quite simple. It appears to be a fixed displacement pump. There are two houses coming out: one to fan motors and one to steering box.

The supply to the motors goes to a manifold bolted to the bottom of the front motor. On the manifold, two small lines go up to the temperature sensor. Another line of the manifold is the return to the tank (via a cooler).

Each motor has a case drain that is tee'd together and returns to the tank.

Now here's what I bet confuses some people. The motors are mounted upside down from one another. The Inlet is on the bottom of the front motor/outlet(drain) is on the top. The rear motor is opposite (inlet on top). The OUTLET from the front motor is piped to the inlet of the rear motor.

Anyway, the system is very simple after looking at it.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #37 – December 22, 2014, 11:54:43 am

Today's update: The coach is going to stay here at Big Cabin Diesel until sometime in January. Various people are been trying to track down engineers to figure out whether the two-stage pump could be used. It seems that all of the top engineers in the country are on vacation right now. If someone comes up with a solution we'll get a phone call. In the meantime I'm going to take the old pump to a friend of mine who runs a machine shop and is an old-school mechanic who wants to know why something failed rather than just change parts. He's going to see if he can rebuild the old pump. Jo Ann is on the phone with them right now. This will give us a good opportunity to catch up on what all of our children and grandchildren are up to (8 children and 2 grandchildren between us).

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #38 – December 22, 2014, 12:05:45 pm

If the old pump is a no go, ask him if hen can center bore the new pump shaft and build a corresponding shaft to the correct length and weld together,re machine the the weld and your done.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #39 – December 22, 2014, 01:55:14 pm

Quote from: kb0zke – December 22, 2014, 11:54:43 am

In the meantime I'm going to take the old pump to a friend of mine who runs a machine shop and is an old-school mechanic who wants to know why something failed rather than just change parts. He's going to see if he can rebuild the old pump.

Hopefully he can measure the internal parts and post the numbers here so that at least a general idea of pump displacement can be extracted. The pump is easier to figure out than the motors.
How to Measure Cubic Inch Displacement in a Gear Pump - YouTube

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #40 – December 22, 2014, 05:53:08 pm

The plot thickens. I sent a somewhat sharp email to Concentric, the company that made the new pump, and asked for a response. Here is what I just got:

"Very sorry to hear of your trouble with the vehicle. We did not have a run a of pumps
with the wrong shaft. I have verified there have never been any returns for incorrect shafts.
The last production run of this pump was May of 2008. As this pump has a custom shaft,
the lead-time to procure shafts is a minimum of 12-14 weeks and has a minimum buy qty.

Sounds like Foretravel sent you the wrong pump entirely."

I just left a message with Mike at Foretravel. Tomorrow I'll let my friend look at both pumps and we'll see if we can get a working pump out of this mess.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #41 – December 22, 2014, 07:42:23 pm

That to me is very bad and sad to hear if as you said was the comment from FT on why you were sent the wrong one. I would be fuming and want some help with labour cost for wasted time.
In this "electronic" age you have to be very careful what you say and they should know that.
JohnH

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #42 – December 22, 2014, 07:45:50 pm

They may have ordered a different pump and returned them after finding they did not fit.

May need a group buy here from those who have the same system. Direct from the supplier.

In advance of need

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #43 – December 22, 2014, 09:08:55 pm

We can speculate all we want about who might be to blame, but that isn't going to solve anything. Bob may be onto something. Foretravel said that they won't get their next order of 8(?) until March, and Concentric said 12-14 weeks, so I'm guessing that Foretravel has just ordered some. For the next year or two ordering from Foretravel will result in immediate delivery. A group buy would certainly cut into that demand, though, and would leave some people much worse off. If Foretravel buys eight pumps for, say, $800 each, they are putting out $6400 in hopes of getting back, say, $10,000 over the next three years. If it takes six years to get those pumps sold, though, might someone decide that it isn't worth it to carry them? Then what?

On the other hand, if 10 of us were go go together and order 10 pumps, we would get ours at wholesale price. One person would have to be the point person, who would receive the money from the other nine, place the order, and then send out nine pumps.

The question, then, is how many of these pumps might be needed? I know my 93 U300 needs one. What about other years? What about other models? What about other brands, such as Newell or Wanderlodge? Do any of them use this same pump? I'm a member of both forums, so I'll ask them that question. What about Prevost? Anyone on their forum? What others?

I wonder what other parts might be hard to get and worthy of a group buy? Interesting topic. Maybe this ought to get a separate thread.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #44 – December 22, 2014, 09:52:10 pm

Although our U280 is in the same model year as David's, it uses a totally different pump. Our coach has the "2 pump" setup, with completely separate systems for cooling fans and power steering. I have been doing some in-depth research lately on my cooling fan pump, because I am going to try rebuilding it myself. Our pump was manufactured by Vickers, and is a vane type single stage pump. The model number is V10F 1S5T 1C10J 20. The stock number is 0-2136886-3. There is a lot of info on this pump available online, including some excellent "exploded" diagrams and parts lists. This pump is really quite simple in design, and can be totally "refreshed" by simply replacing the center "cartridge" section, along with a shaft seal, roller bearing and a few O-rings. I have already secured these parts, along with a new shaft (in case the original shaft shows any defect). I will be starting on the rebuild right after Christmas (weather permitting). I plan on presenting a complete photo report on the (hopefully successful) project.

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@hyd/documents/content/pll_1570.pdf

Parts for Vickers V10/V20 Vane Pumps

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #45 – December 22, 2014, 10:28:10 pm

Cajon, should have no problems overhauling the Vickers pump. Have done many over the years on tuna boats and tug boats. Good luck!

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #46 – December 22, 2014, 11:32:53 pm

Chuck, looks like I may have the same pump in my book I have the service parts information sheet with all the spec's and exploded view of the assembly. Thanks for your post. I will look tomorrow and make sure that's what i have.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #47 – December 23, 2014, 12:34:38 am

@Chuck I see 3 hoses on you pump is there maybe a 4th that I can't see? Is your pump a 2 stage pump or maybe a tandem? Any chance you have the hydraulic schematic in your documentation?

see ya
ken

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #48 – December 23, 2014, 01:20:16 am

David, you are being very calm on this whole issue and I commend you for that, but, it was brought to our notice by your posting of info and that resulted in my "sad" comment. FT know what was fitted to your coach and that is why I found the sending of a wrong unit to be bad and stand by that still.
Should this breakdown ever affect me I would be tearing it apart myself and using my background as Tool & Die maker/machinist knowledge hopefully to bring about a quicker repair to pump or?
JohnH

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #49 – December 23, 2014, 08:22:45 am

Quote from: kenhat – December 23, 2014, 12:34:38 am

@Chuck I see 3 hoses on your pump is there maybe a 4th that I can't see? Is your pump a 2 stage pump or maybe a tandem? Any chance you have the hydraulic schematic in your documentation?

Sorry, David, I didn't mean to hijack your thread, but since this subject is of interest to MANY members, I thought it might be OK to mention "other" pump setups being used besides your Haldex pump.

1. Ken, yes there are 4 hoses total. Looking at my photos, you can see one big hose going to the front cover (inlet) of the pump - this comes from the hydraulic tank. At the rear of the pump, there is one smaller hose coming out the top, and 2 hoses that are Tee'd together coming out the side (you can only see 1 in the photo). I haven't actually traced these hoses (yet) to see where they go, but I will before I remove the pump for overhaul. I also bought a digital photo tachometer that I will use to check my current fan speeds at several different RPM's. This will give me base numbers to use for comparison after the pump is rebuilt.

2. My pump is a simple single stage pump, exactly as shown in the tech doc linked above, with one replaceable center "cartridge" section. My pump has the V10F rear cover, which is a "Flow Control" cover (the bottom one shown in the diagram). It has a "pressure control valve" in the rear cover outlet port where the 2 Tee'd hoses connect. According to my part number, this is a "J" valve, which equates to 2250 psi (maximum pump or system pressure?). Here is a short video showing internal construction of the V10 pump:

Changing Rotation On A Vickers Vane Pump - YouTube

3. Unfortunately, I do not have a hydraulic schematic for my coach. It is on my Christmas Wish List! Do you suppose Santa knows James Triana?

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