Haldex pump

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Haldex pump

December 19, 2014, 02:51:37 pm

We're down to the last part - the belt-driven hydraulic pump that runs the radiator fan motors. The one Foretravel sent was their last one, and the shaft is too short. The Haldex part number is 1800465. Anyone have any ideas? We've tried Foretravel, Colaw's, Haldex and now they're on the phone to Newell. Foretravel says it will be March before they will have another.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #1 – December 19, 2014, 03:13:13 pm

Find a place that works on repairing hydraulic pumps. They may be able to help you.

Keith

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #2 – December 19, 2014, 03:18:09 pm

Contact Womack Machine 1-800-569-9801

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #3 – December 19, 2014, 03:36:48 pm

Trace Helm, the head guy here, has been on the phone all morning since he was made aware of the problem. He has called Colaw's, Womack, Haldex, Foretravel, and has a call in to Newell. Everything else is in place. All we need is the pump, shaft, and pulley to fit together nicely. I actually posted the initial post, using Jo Ann's name since she was logged in on her iPad. We're back in our spot waiting for a miracle. I have a call in to James T.

It seems that the shaft and gear inside the pump are proprietary items, so a pump shop can't just make one up. I can't believe that this is the first time this problem has come up. The original shaft is 1/2" to 3/4" longer than the shaft on the replacement pump. There is some sort of adapter behind the pulley (as I understand what Trace was trying to tell me) that the pulley squeezes as it is put on, which is why they had so much trouble getting it off. One of the mechanics suggested that they put the pulley on the new pump as best they can, then spin it up somehow and use a dial indicator to get it within .001 and then weld it. Trace nixed it on the grounds that if it didn't work they have just ruined a new pump. I nixed it on safety grounds. They really are trying to think of anything that might work - even if it gets someone injured.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #4 – December 19, 2014, 04:42:22 pm

David, any chance of sleeping the new shaft to fit the pully assembley?

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #5 – December 19, 2014, 04:48:48 pm

Richard, do you mean "sleeving" the shaft?

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #6 – December 19, 2014, 05:57:55 pm

I can't picture the problem, but a few pictures would help. You could have somebody handy on a lathe turn an adapter to put the old pulley on the new shaft.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #7 – December 19, 2014, 06:03:36 pm

David,

Attached is a photo of our pump shaft, adapter and pulley. It has four bolts you can see. The length of the shaft should have nothing to do with it as the adapter and pulley will slide on the shaft to align the belt. Both the shaft and adapter are keyed with the key placed in the shaft and the adapter aligned and tapped on. The bolts should be loosened, the area sprayed with LPS or any like lubricant and then it can be pulled off. Is this what your pulley looks like? You have the same engine and year as ours.

Hope they are not taking you for a ride.

Pierce

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #8 – December 19, 2014, 06:06:15 pm

Are the shafts the same, except for length? If the shaft on the old pump is not damaged, remove it and install it in the new pump? Usually it is the bearings/bushings that go bad, and the shaft is still fine, even on a "worn-out" pump.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #9 – December 19, 2014, 06:24:07 pm

This afternoon has been "interesting." We were originally sent a 2-stage pump but we need a single stage. Foretravel sent the right part, but it seems that the pump manufacturer had a quality problem and a bunch of pumps were shipped with the wrong shaft. Foretravel got some of them, and all but one were sent back. I have the one that wasn't sent back.

The pulley doesn't go all the way on the shaft. I called James Triana this afternoon and pleaded with him for some help. He called back a while ago and had Mike with him, both of them on speaker with me. That's how I found out about the pumps with the wrong shaft. They had reviewed what has been sent this week and started speculating on whether the two-stage pump could be made to work. Trace Helm, the head guy here at Cabin Diesel, immediately called Mike and asked what was happening. The engineers will puzzle over this problem and if the two-stage pump can be made to work that will be used. We'll know sometime on Monday.

In the meantime I talked to a mechanic/tool and die friend. He thinks that maybe the original pump can be rebuilt. Since his place is on the way for our Christmas trip I will take the original pump with me and drop it off for him to play with. At this point we don't know whether the coach will be in Stillwater or Big Cabin for Christmas. We'll find out next week.

Pierce, that looks like what ours looked like before all this happened. The pulley is held to the shaft with a type of collet. As the bolts are tightened the part inside the pulley is squeezed onto the shaft and key. Probably makes for a very good mechanical connection, but a royal pain to take apart (according to the young man who got to do the work).

They say hindsight is always 20/20. I wonder if we'd be in Stillwater by now if I had said to scrap the hydraulic system and put in a couple of electric fans. I understand that some of the new cars even use electric pumps for the power steering and brakes.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #10 – December 19, 2014, 06:41:22 pm

David, I did mean sleeve.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #11 – December 19, 2014, 06:46:56 pm

Could electric fans "get you by" in 30-40 degree ambient temperatures-- maybe.

Could electric fans work year round. From a practical standpoint, not a chance. These fans are 20-30 HP fans when on high.

There is no practical way to fit an alternator/electric fan system to generate the CFM generated by a 20-30 HP hydraulic fan set up.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #12 – December 19, 2014, 07:00:36 pm

Quote from: kb0zke – December 19, 2014, 06:24:07 pm

Pierce, that looks like what ours looked like before all this happened. The pulley is held to the shaft with a type of collet. As the bolts are tightened the part inside the pulley is squeezed onto the shaft and key. Probably makes for a very good mechanical connection, but a royal pain to take apart (according to the young man who got to do the work).

They say hindsight is always 20/20. I wonder if we'd be in Stillwater by now if I had said to scrap the hydraulic system and put in a couple of electric fans. I understand that some of the new cars even use electric pumps for the power steering and brakes.

The mechanic had trouble because he didn't use and rust penetrant ahead of time and wondered why it wouldn't come off. That's the difference between the young man and a master mechanic.

No, you can't just install electric fans and get enough air through the radiator to cool it any kind of warm weather. I would have done that the moment I looked at the setup.

So here is what happened as I see it. You were driving down the road and noticed a loss of power. The steering wheel rim had blocked the warning lights and the DDEC II had gone into shutdown mode, protecting the engine. After 30 seconds of reduced power, the engine shuts off. The override switch can be used but repeated use has ruined engines. The hydraulic pump had leaked all the oil out so the fans stopped working.

The company wanted you to open your wallet and probably was not up to speed on the system so wanted to order all new components. Correct? Now, a bunch of stuff has arrived but does not look like the OEM and they don't really know what to do except charge your credit card.

Send the pump out to be rebuilt by someone who knows what they are doing if you can't find a reasonable replacement.

Ultra sorry about your situation, especially this time of year. This is the big reason I want to add radiators up front, remove the entire obsolete hydraulic pump/motor/fan system and put electric fans on the face of the radiator. No fun starting a trip and wondering if the pump or other components are going to fail. Other SOB forums are also full of horror stories. And, yes, it IS obsolete if you can't quickly get parts to service it. How much were they trying to charge just for overnight delivery? This is way more than six electric fans would cost to buy and deliver.

This time of year, several electric fans installed correctly on the face would probably get you home or to a stable location without getting too hot. Would take six and careful measurement against size seen on the ebay fans to get them fitted so all of the radiator was covered.

Pierce

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #13 – December 19, 2014, 07:27:47 pm

I don't understand what is so special about these FT hydraulic systems. Almost every metro bus, many charter busses, etc, use hydraulic fan systems. I had a 1990 gillig metro bus with a hydraulic fan system.

Nothing is that special.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #14 – December 19, 2014, 07:46:17 pm

I think there are a couple of issues here.

First, Foretravel used several different arrangements back then, even on similar coaches built at different times in the run. Not much can be done about that now, other than to know beforehand what alternator, power steering pump, etc. is on YOUR coach.

Second, Concentric (who bought Haldex) built some pumps with the wrong shaft in them. Foretravel discovered that and sent back all but one of the defective pumps. For some reason one was not sent back for exchange and that's the one I got.

Cabin Diesel is desperately seeking mechanics who can not only change the old parts but also figure out WHY something failed. I don't know if the young mechanic used any sort of loosening agent or not. I suspect that he probably did, but 20 years of rust and crud aren't going to clean up in 20 minutes and I suspect that he was a bit impatient.

As for charging our credit card, nothing has been charged yet. I'm sure that it is because they aren't done working and don't really know just what to charge yet. They said they were going to charge us a greatly reduced rate for three nights and then nothing for the rest of the time here. They also cut their labor rate, and apologize every time they walk by. Yes, this will cost us several coach bucks, but at least we are safe and warm. We're right on Route 66, which we want to explore anyway. We even had someone here (!) express interest in our house in Missouri. All in all, things could be a lot worse.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #15 – December 19, 2014, 08:13:19 pm

Quote from: krush – December 19, 2014, 07:27:47 pm

I don't understand what is so special about these FT hydraulic systems. Almost every metro bus, many charter busses, etc, use hydraulic fan systems. I had a 1990 gillig metro bus with a hydraulic fan system.
Nothing is that special.

Krush,

What makes it very special is when you have spent your life in different vocations than mechanical geeks like some of us, bought a motorhome to travel our country and then have experienced a component failure, can't get it quickly resolved and without busting the budget.

This is what our forum is for. No crime to not be an expert on the hundreds of different components our coaches have. A quick post with a problem will find someone who has had the same experience and can help get them pointed the right way. No ego here, just a desire to help others. I'm sure members feel the same way about helping others. It's been a tough road for many RV manufactures including Foretravel so we can't expect too much and have to rely on each other. Bunch of great folks as I see it.

Pierce

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #16 – December 19, 2014, 08:30:20 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – December 19, 2014, 08:13:19 pm

Krush,

What makes it very special is when you have spent your life in different vocations than mechanical geeks like some of us, bought a motorhome to travel our country and then have experienced a component failure.....................No ego here, just a desire to help others. I'm sure members feel the same way about helping others. It's been a tough road for many RV manufactures including Foretravel so we can't expect too much and have to rely on each other. Bunch of great folks as I see it.

You completely misinterpreted my post. I wasn't being sarcastic or critical to David by any means! I was being critical of FT for using such weird "special" combination of parts that seem to be damn impossible to find!!! I can total understand and relate to his frustration.

As for the mechanic bill. Well, people have to make a living. I turned wrenches for money in the past, and fix stuff for a living now, by the hour. If the shop has somebody working on your stuff, they need to be charging for it. If the mechanics are pretty competent, it's not their fault FT built the system they way it is.

It always irks me when people start getting cheap and complaining about labor charges when the mechanic/shop is doing a GOOD job. They have to feed their family too. And the complaining usually comes from white collar or government workers that earn a pretty penny sitting in a desk all day doing 2-3 hours of useful work (emails and BS the rest of the time).

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #17 – December 19, 2014, 08:50:24 pm

I suspect that back in 1993 the system I have was a first-class system. The problem is that this isn't 1993. Add to that a manufacturing error that somehow made it out of the factory and you have the problem I have. I suppose I could try to point fingers, but I'd have to point at least one at myself, since I'm the one who bought a 20-year-old coach and didn't immediately start changing all of the external parts that could wear out. I'm strongly tempted to spend a bit more and have all new hydraulic hoses installed, just to prevent a future problem in this system.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #18 – December 20, 2014, 12:15:47 am

Quote from: kb0zke – December 19, 2014, 08:50:24 pm

I'm strongly tempted to spend a bit more and have all new hydraulic hoses installed, just to prevent a future problem in this system.

Not a bad idea. Just my opinion based on a failed hydraulic hose.

Roland

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #19 – December 20, 2014, 12:47:02 am

The picture Pierce put up is showing a tapered mandrel that as mentioned gets tighter by tightening the bolts. You remove it by putting 2 of the bolts in the 2 threaded holes shown in photo. Very common mounting system we used a lot on diesel Engine etc parts in England. You do not need a full shaft fitting flush with outside, it can be 50% but nice to have more. I would relace that system if it is still usable. If shaft is larger diameter then have the bushing bored out to fit and keyway deepened to suit. I seem to remember something about the shaft size being wrong but did not find it.
Also seems to be another problem.
I too have a problem with FT not having right parts and this talk in another thread about "wrong drawings" in coach files, this should not be happening in this price of coach.
JohnH

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #20 – December 20, 2014, 12:57:46 am

I just don't understand how there can only be "one" pump that fits and "one" motor. A pump has a certain displacement or variable displacement with certain specs---why can't any similar be used?

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #21 – December 20, 2014, 08:08:22 am

David,

John H. is spot on in his assessment on the shaft and pulley. Did exactly what he said to dozens of motors/pumps & fans in industrial equipment for power plants all across the country that are still running. Those machines run hard 7/24/365, so it seems that a good machine shop would be able to help resolve the fix. Just my opinion, but 30+ yrs experience says something.

Larry

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #22 – December 20, 2014, 10:29:47 am

David,

When you say "The pulley doesn't go all the way on the shaft" how how far does it go on? The collet was appx 5/8" from being flush with the end of the shaft on my original pump. The new pump has a longer shaft which does end up almost flush with the collet.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #23 – December 20, 2014, 10:56:58 am

John and Larry, are you saying that if the pulley is at least 50% on the shaft that is sufficient? If so, then maybe we can finally get on the road one way or the other. As I recall, that might put the pump pulley somewhere close to being in line with the engine pulley.

Foretravel engineers are trying to figure out how to make the two-stage pump that was originally sent work, and a friend who runs a machine shop is willing to look at the old pump to see if he can rebuilt it. His shop is on our way home for Christmas, so we'll take the old pump with us if nothing is fixed before then.

It seems that the sequence of events here is that one of the fan motors seized up first. The speed switch was destroyed then, and the loss of oil caused the pump to run dry. The old fan motors and speed switch are no longer available, so we had to replace them with new ones.

Dave, the main issue is that the shaft on the new pump is a half inch shorter than the shaft on the dead pump. The shaft on the two-stage pump is the correct diameter and length. If the pulley only goes on about half-way anyway, then we're still out of luck, as that's about how far it goes on the short shaft.

Re: Haldex pump

Reply #24 – December 20, 2014, 11:16:03 am

Quote from: John Haygarth – December 20, 2014, 12:47:02 am

I too have a problem with FT not having right parts and this talk in another thread about "wrong drawings" in coach files, this should not be happening in this price of coach.
JohnH

So many of the RV manufacturers are no longer in business so I guess that Foretravel owners are lucky to have anyone at the other end of the phone. Foretravel made a great quality RV for many years but has had to change their direction to keep the doors open. Now there are so many different forms of transportation for the retiree like city sized cruise ships, flights to exotic destinations, etc plus the number of people with the income necessary to purchase, fuel, insure, and maintain high end RV has drastically shrunk.

I'm sure Foretravel thought they had the best hydraulic system going when they went to the side radiator. High production vehicles that make money for owners rack up millions of miles in fleet use so any faults surface quickly and have to be addressed in the same manner to keep companies coming back to buy again. Foretravel used many of the commercial components to make a quality, reliable coach but just missed a bit in the choice of available hydraulic components. But hindsight is always 20-20.

As Krush posts above, there is nothing really special about powering a couple of motors to cool the radiator and many of these pumps can be seen on ebay each day for a fraction of the price Foretravel owners have to pay if they can even locate the part. It's just finding someone with the time and experience that can match the inexpensive pumps and motors up to our coaches. I'm sure Foretravel is stretched thin enough as it is and no other company wants to do the research to match pumps and motors to our application with a very limited number of vehicles. Hopefully, some member with the time and a little experience will (probably out of necessity) match easily found components to our application.

As an possible alternative to the hydraulic system, how about mounting a large 12V alternator in place of the hydraulic pump and using commercial fans to move the necessary CFMs through the radiator? The air cooled diesel bus I looked at only used one big 24V fan above and mounted to the body to cool the engine in all conditions.

Pierce

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