Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Topic: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show (Read 3183 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #25 – January 15, 2015, 07:11:07 pm

Quote from: krush – January 15, 2015, 07:00:41 pm

I still don't understand the risk in doing a run of traditional 2000 style FT's. All the costs are variable...no new tooling or design work would have to be done.

Unfortunately, the power plant and cooling package changes pushed from Cummins would make for fairly significant engineering costs to adapt even a pre-2010 chassis design to the currently-available drivetrains. Tyle Fore mentioned this a few years ago as a huge issue for Foretravel during one of our factory tours. At one point recently, the Cummins changes were forcing major chassis redesigns annually and rolling those design/development/tooling costs into small volume production becomes impractical.

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #26 – January 15, 2015, 07:16:49 pm

Quote from: Michelle – January 15, 2015, 07:11:07 pm

Unfortunately, the power plant and cooling package changes pushed from Cummins would make for fairly significant engineering costs to adapt even a pre-2010 chassis design to the currently-available drivetrains. Tyle Fore mentioned this a few years ago as a huge issue for Foretravel during one of our factory tours. At one point recently, the Cummins changes were forcing major chassis redesigns annually and rolling those design/development/tooling costs into small volume production becomes impractical.

I guess we can thank the EPA!

There will probably be a black market for pre 2008 drivetains LOL

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #27 – January 15, 2015, 07:25:49 pm

Quote from: ltg – January 15, 2015, 06:40:53 pm

I would like to point out that the poster has been a ForeForum member since 2004.

And do the math, 121 posts in that time. This is the only one I can recall, and he is blasting all the regulars for not praising everything Foretravel does.

This is not the Foretravel of old. Maybe it's a sign of the times and the way things must me in order to survive.

I know i am one of the members esaulten has issues with. I feel the current management at FOT is not listening to the base of current owners, who are well represented here.

We went from free factory telephone support, to only available for an added fee with MC membership. and we weren't even told about it until after renewal time. So here I sit without the support I thought I had. I believe the management could have handled this much better.

We went from motor coaches the majority of us find usable, to much a lower production volume of coaches too tall and long for many of us. The management appears to listening to someone other than the majority of forum members.

I would dearly love to do as many of you have, and move to a newer (but not brand new) coach someday. Unfortunately, in a few years time, when I would be looking, there won't be any under 40 foot 2015 Foretravels (or even Rhelms) for me to consider buying.

It appears the FOT management is listening only to MHS, producing IH and Rhelms that MHS wants. I fear, this along with them not listening to their installed base of customers, will eventually lead to a change of ownership. I fear the new owner will be MHS, and FOT will be downgraded to a captive manufacturing division.

I challenge anyone from FOT to dispute what I have said, either here or give me a call. My ForeForums handle is my real name and my MC number is in my signature. They know how to make contact. I won't be holding my breath. I fear this management team no longer cares.

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #28 – January 15, 2015, 07:30:03 pm

Hopefully the EPA changes are done for a while and that FT can engineer a chassis that they can build on for a while. I am pretty interested in how this Realm sells and if they get an order for another set of coaches. If so, I would think that it will be the direction they will take. They do the command coaches on a Freightliner chassis too. It is a small niche industry but hopefully the lower fuel prices will remove one hurdle to increasing sales.

If they sell 10 realms that will be a big portion of their production that they will make this year. I do hope they sell them but I also think that they have not listened in the past but I do think they are starting too. And truthfully that scares me a bit.

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #29 – January 15, 2015, 07:45:20 pm

quote"I would like to point out that the poster has been a ForeForum member since 2004.

I do not understand again what that has to do with my comment" ?
If someone has Lyle R in his pocket to get instant replies then that answers my feelings that it would be hard to give real life answers that may be negative. he may not answer your next call!!

JohnH

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #30 – January 15, 2015, 07:50:11 pm

Quote from: Tom Lang – January 15, 2015, 07:25:49 pm

I would dearly love to do as many of you have, and move to a newer (but not brand new) coach someday. Unfortunately, in a few years time, when I would be looking, there won't be any under 40 foot 2015 Foretravels (or even Rhelms) for me to consider buying.

I suspect you are correct about 2015 models. However, looking at the Foretravel sale archives showed a 2013 Nimbus 36, a 2013 nimbus 38, and a 2013 Nimbus 40. I believe there will be some newer coaches coming available for members to move up to.

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #31 – January 15, 2015, 07:55:24 pm

Quote from: Tom Lang – January 15, 2015, 07:25:49 pm

And do the math, 121 posts in that time.

The great majority of the more than 2,000 FoFums have posted less than 100 times.

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #32 – January 15, 2015, 08:22:23 pm

Quote

The poster's coach is a 2008 model. That means that the chance of receiving an answer to request for help is almost non existent.

That is pure made up hogwash. Many systems on these coaches are basically the same, and many members have had other coaches that share the same or similar systems. You could make a claim for that on a IH45 I suppose, ~100 of those rolling around so I don't think anyone can help them other than the factory. And really *if* something is new, well its up to them to share knowledge with others, or perhaps keep it a closely guarded secret lol Shhh don't let anyone know as it may help others in the future! If there is no information and they don't share, really whos fault is that? If your not willing to share/help, don't complain when there is no free information.

Quote

The hallmark of this forum is the open exchange of ideas and information on our common interest, Foretravel RVs. I know that it is not always favorable to FT but it is the members opinion or a fact and there is much more that is favorable.

+1 Thats the basis of any forum, its the willingness to ask a question, provide an answer and share information. Overall what I see is genuine concern that a brand they currently love may not be their next coach.

Quote

That is what all business do but they also hear the comments on here for a smaller cheaper motorhome and as such they put out a survey in the motorcader magazine that we just received.

I don't know if I'd say cheap, honestly the cost of an early / mid 200x coach in todays CPI money is what 750k or there about. Somehow this miserable bunch was able to afford them. You should be able to deliver a fine coach for that and sell plenty IF you wanted that volume (and the problems) and IF you were building a coach that met those customers lifestyles. Frankly thats their business choice as well, they have chosen to pursue a market segment that IMO they are not able to support. Motorcader only survey?, I do hope they intend to look past that segment if they truly want to grow.

Quote

I know that I will not be buying an IH. It is too tall for the east coast and that means they are not producing a coach for me.

Same for us as you know. I can get a custom Pheonx built that would work but it would cost more than an IH45 or find some late year used one that works, or I can look at other brands, those are the options for me.

Quote

I had a friend who owned a U320 and was looking for a new coach and got an Enegra and another long time owner, two actually, bought bus conversions. That tells me that FT is leaving its older installed owner base behind.

Exactly this. I also know several owners who have moved on to SOB's, as well. What Foretravel is producing, while very nice, did not stackup with the other options in that price segment -for them-. And this was a big deal to them, Foretravel loyal and certainly not their last motorcoach. Thats not to say the "new" ForeTravel 3.0, aka IH45 Foretravel era, will not be the sweet spot but it also means more of a new customer base then an old one, and breaking up is hard to do.

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #33 – January 15, 2015, 08:26:27 pm

Why did the Fore family have financial problems. Was it mismanagement? Was it the coaches they were building? What would have happened if the current owners had not purchased the company? Would no Foretravel Company be better than the current Foretravel Company?

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #34 – January 15, 2015, 08:33:33 pm

I have sold countless high line motorhomes and I learned long ago to hardly look at the exterior paint application and the designer fabrics.

almost universally the parts of the rv that should have the closest scrutiny are not the visible ones.

the references to newell and prevost are interesting and if I had not been in the biz and used every possible variation of rv myself I would like them also

there were no high line rvs with metal skins.

still remember the hailstorm at the minot fmca rally. killed dogs outside. destroyed 40% of the wally byman airstream attendies trailers. damaged every prevosts roof and upper sidewalls.

destroyed roof a/c covers and vents on the fiberglass coaches.

been there. no way. steel framed. fiberglass skinned. vacuum laminated sidewalls. plumbing in a tray under the floor versus bundled up against a frame rail.

I keep going through every system on our 97 as the shell and basic structure and wiring and plumbing were designed to be accessible and last almost unlimited time.

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #35 – January 15, 2015, 08:39:41 pm

Quote from: esaulten – January 15, 2015, 05:20:37 pm

The Realm was designed, both interior and exterior specifications, Aquahot etc. by Motor Home Specialists. The quality of construction and paint is Foretravel. The limited amp of alternator power and and the lack of other chassis specs area all Sparten. I think if you don't like the design of front end or rear end the people you should be addressing is the dealer. The fact it doesn't have HWH components for drivability is a cost constraint that was considered and based on volume was rejected. This Realm relationship was developed by the dealer selling the IH Foretravel and their belief that they could sell a model similar to the Entegra Cornerstone. This they can do with the Realm. It was not ever designed to be Foretravels's entry coach. The Dealer is the largest Entegra dealer in the USA so they felt I assume, moving ten a year would not be a problem. They fronted all the development costs as well as the purchase of the chassis from Sparten. I find it amazing that no matter what Foretravel does some of you especially with older coaches, who have no intention of ever buying a new 2015 or eventually newer motor home have so many gripes with something that will alienate potential buyers, when you have no vested interest in the bad press.

Well stated and I second it.

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #36 – January 15, 2015, 09:25:51 pm

This has been an interesting thread, and I've been dreaming a bit about being in a position to buy a new coach. Personally, if I was that wealthy I'd probably ask about getting a new Grand Villa (yes, I'm dreaming).

As for factory support, when we were broken down last month I finally placed a phone call to James Triana. I actually talked to him a couple of times, and each time he was very concerned about our situation and came up with a couple of possible fixes/work-arounds. I could criticize the parts department for not having the proper pump, but what good would that do? They already know that they had the wrong pump in stock, and they have ordered more of the proper pump so that they will be able to help someone else.

The new coaches don't appeal to me because I don't like the "bling" look. If I could order a brand-new coach I suppose I could delete the mirrors on the ceiling, etc. and get a mainly white paint with a few color splashes instead of black, brown, and dark red that seems to be the current standard.

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #37 – January 15, 2015, 09:54:33 pm

" Going after big money is great. The margins may be better, but the volume isn't there."
Duesenberg
Auburn
Cord
Pierce Arrow
Packard
Maybach
etc.
etc.

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #38 – January 15, 2015, 10:00:44 pm

Quote from: ltg – January 15, 2015, 08:26:27 pm

Why did the Fore family have financial problems. Was it mismanagement? Was it the coaches they were building? What would have happened if the current owners had not purchased the company? Would no Foretravel Company be better than the current Foretravel Company?

The bank looked at the number of coaches they had in stock that were used and called their loan on the floorplan loan they had. They said that without slides, the coaches were worth a lot less, so they called the loan and that was the initial issue. We had a time when there was no FT for us after that for a few months.

The issue is that they have to make a coach that will sell in the marketplace of today and the current realm, is probably their best bet to do that even if it is different from what we have as most owners.

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #39 – January 15, 2015, 10:08:01 pm

Quote from: ltg – January 15, 2015, 08:26:27 pm

Why did the Fore family have financial problems. Was it mismanagement? Was it the coaches they were building? What would have happened if the current owners had not purchased the company? Would no Foretravel Company be better than the current Foretravel Company?

Why is the new company unable to be profitable in 10 years is it mismanagement, is it the coaches they are building, is it the expense of potential defects?

Many RV company's went under in the early downturn, honestly ForeTravel got "lucky" that someone with deep pockets wanted to play and the price was right.

Is it better? Thats all perspective, when they bought it and my coach was under warranty sure it was, and when I would go there and could not get the oil changed because they had no filters and no one would sell them any parts, of course ... it was a god send.

Now, for me, I'm not sure it makes any difference. Not to be cold, just answering your question. ForeTravel is looking at customers as "what have you done for me today", so I will look at them with the same glasses. Special parts (and 08 begins to fall in that category now) are not available, they don't produce a product that fits me, the depreciation rate of the current product is phenomenal even for RV's, I can get a better service for less than $120 and hour (I don't have to wait 3 weeks in a parking lot to have them fix things they broke replacing parts).

Yes I know that will get some people all ruffled up as bashing, but that has been my recent experience, and one delivered and controlled by them. Why am I supposed to hide that and say its all perfect when its not? I'm not saying anything negative about the owners, don't know them, did not know the Fore's before them, hold none of them ill will, hope all are "rich beyond the dreams of avarice" if thats what they desire.

Me I'm just "a customer" and can only say what I've personally experienced and what I'm looking for.

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #40 – January 15, 2015, 10:18:52 pm

Quote from: brrving – January 15, 2015, 08:39:41 pm

Well stated and I second it.

Maybe I should change my name to the basher

I understand all the design decisions and funding came from outside of Foretravel, yet it says ForeTravel on the product. ForeTravel will never have a chance to explain any of those decisions to a potential customer who may be turned off. They are letting someone else control the brandname, time will tell how that works. Overall I think getting in to additional markets is a good thing, and its interesting twist with the dealers.

I've done many a product where we put our "badge" on their "product" and its an interesting set of tradeoff's. Really not sure the RV marketplace has that level of market segmentation, but then the only segment of the RV market I know is what I like ! In the end we always owned it good or bad, no one else.

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #41 – January 15, 2015, 10:59:15 pm

behind the scenes in the 80's when I ran the California store was always the east Texas mentality. not bad just stubborn. they KNEW they knew better. they started to micro manage my store through the GM as he was from Nacogdoches himself.

I laughed in a way as as they were nice church of the Nazarene people and non drinkers that maybe if I had good results and was 1389 miles from them they might trust me to do it my way. property had appreciated greatly in ca in those days so there was a lot of new money around. made in a few years. not paying off a mortgage for 30 years money. kinda like gambling winnnings.

easier to spend for most. so I helped them spend it. helped me and foretravel and them.

did really well. sold 59 new in 1988. right place. right time.

mr fore and marie were terrible salesman as he told me personally. dark interiors.

MHS has a sales operation setup it seems. so the tail can wag the dog. they have the clout and money to order custom coaches. good for them and good for foretravel to build them.

the average customer now of days is not that well educated about the structure needed to build a long term quality coach.

requires a long term sales presentation. I averaged 21 months from meet and greet to driving off.

no way that can be done anymore. customer walks into a pro store and is turned to new salesman until he buys or is so burned he is never coming back. selling can be a science and a few dealers I worked for had physologists on the staff to analyze the salesman and the prospective customers.

the ones that left Foretravel got SOLD. Marketed. closed. I was an expert but preferred to do it the slow way as the repeaters were the proof. not afraid to let a prospect walk then. sold the product. not the glitz. especially as we had very little versus the pretty stuff even then.

so I custom made 50% of my sales. no one else could do that. plus the lighter coach went up the hills way faster in the rockies.

they were correct to not sell lower quality products except the rest of the industry got better salesman and prettier coaches an by the time you looked at a bunch of pretty, cheaper coaches how right could foretravel be?

and the DW liked them better. now you could go rving....

no way to learn that stuff anymore. the proliferation of multi slide coaches drove the price point and weight up enough to lose most medium asset buyers.

marketing sold the newbys

we used to take a buyers temperature long ago when you asked him if he was prepared to spend $1,500 a month for 15 years to own the coach he was looking at. got their attention right away.

now we are talking about enough money to buy a non depreciating nice custom house in a beautiful area.

no fix. the pretty but not made as well got ahead of foretravel. quality be darned. marketing won.

the motorcade club was a big help long ago pre internet as rving was more difficult and problematic and the support structure of the club was both necessary and caused a lot of retained brand loyalty. now we and I can use the internet and allstays and campground reviews on our own.

times march on. everything is interrelated anymore.

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #42 – January 16, 2015, 03:30:17 am

PERSONALLY,
I look forward to every post made by the owners of the "newer" Foretravels, GOOD or BAD.
I find it interesting to learn about all the facets of the newer coaches when told by the people who actually own and drive them.

Frankly, most topics relating to the repair and replacements on subjects like floors etc, have been covered over and over. As has the repair of mechanical components. That's GREAT for us old coach owners as we are ALWAYS fixing or having our OLD coaches repaired. Its a breath of fresh air to hear about the newer models.

If the owner of a "newer" Foretravel ever needs help in the Chicago area don't hesitate to contact me!
I may not be able to answer technical questions or fix your problem, but I sure will do ALL I CAN to make your problem less of a problem in any way I can.

I'm sure many other members here feel the same way. WE WELCOME YOU, PLEASE STICK AROUND!

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #43 – January 16, 2015, 07:27:50 am

Quote from: Tim Fiedler – January 15, 2015, 04:04:30 pm

The custom ft chassis is hand built in low volumes with no automation, or labor/material economies of scale.

That is why the Realm is built on a production commercial chassis. FT can't build the custom chassis for anything near what they can buy these commercial chassis.

How much do the major components cost Spartan as compared to how much they cost when Foretravel buys them directly?

How much automation does Spartan use as compared to how much Foretravel uses? Does Spartan use robots on a widespread basis?

How much "hand building" does Foretravel do on a Spartan chassis to make it ready to accept a Foretravel upper body? Pictures posted here in the past give me the impression Foretravel adds a lot to the Spartan chassis before the upper body goes on.

How much automation does Newell use when assembling their chassis?

I've been under the impression that Foretravel has been building their "TravelRide II" chassis for several years and so I would think that it would have made sense for them to incorporate a significant amount of automation.

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #44 – January 16, 2015, 07:36:43 am

Quote from: esaulten – January 15, 2015, 05:20:37 pm

The Realm was designed, both interior and exterior specifications, Aquahot etc. by Motor Home Specialists.

This Realm relationship was developed by the dealer selling the IH Foretravel and their belief that they could sell a model similar to the Entegra Cornerstone. This they can do with the Realm. It was not ever designed to be Foretravels's entry coach.

If the Realm was not designed to be Foretravel's entry-level coach then it shouldn't have Foretravel's name on it.

If Foretravel can't put their quality into the product then they should simply be a nameless supplier of the product owned, designed, and sold by MHS.

The Foretravel "name" once meant an extremely high-quality, high-level coach, and the value of that "name" should not be diluted.

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #45 – January 16, 2015, 07:41:30 am

Steve, Well Said, I think you nailed it for a lot of us. I will never have another Coach, FT or other due to health reasons but I would not take a second look at a Realm.
Gary B

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #46 – January 16, 2015, 08:11:57 am

REPLY #41
Bob, (+1) !
This is an accurate "big picture" summary of the years when we were first trying to understand and purchase our first (1998) FT.
Now if you just add in the early 2000's piece....where FT HAD FALLEN WAY BEHIND the industry full body paint and slides CRAZE....mixed in with a few poor business (mostly efficiency) decisions .......then, as a profit (as well as business) destroyer, got hit with the 2002 & 2003 end cap monsters......that's all that was needed to trigger the banks over the overvalued inventory and floorplan.
The 2004, 2005, 2006 slowdown years were torture for the longtime loyal FT Owners.
We loved CM & Marie. Have many warm memories of the (shy, introverted) Ray and the 80's & 90's Motorcade Club (MCC) driven friendships and loyalties from the early days. No internet so the MCC was the solid core and center of FT enthusiasm. The FoFum "glue" and brand strength of the day.
The MCC and the FT loyalty to customer service and satisfaction were the "glue" back then.
When we were asking, trying to decide what brand and model, in the early/mid 1990's, FT (Fore Family) LOYALTY to customer service and satisfaction was always in the top 1,2,3 reasons when we asked owners, what led you buy (or rebuy) FT?
Look back through a recent FoFum thread and see how many of the top reasons mention anything like FOT focus on customer satifaction (zero).
Lyle and the new backers saved us from what looked like certain doom. Bless them. I wholeheartedly support them.
I don't understand their current strategies and have tried to contribute what I think I have for valuable background and experience, several times directly to Lyle and Gregg.
I come from an industry where one didn't survive unless one sought out and adjusted to stakeholder feedback. I got to be pretty good at it and cracked some really tough nuts in the industry. I was never able to get anywhere with Lyle or Gregg though.
Not a problem, but behind the facade, I have no sense of whether there is strength and purpose or just ?
I just have a sense that today's business executives (not just FOT) undervalue history and core values.
Anyway, thanks again Bob. I enjoy your perspectives a great deal.
Neal

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #47 – January 16, 2015, 09:14:49 am

Quote from: Neal Pillsbury – January 16, 2015, 08:11:57 am

I just have a sense that today's business executives (not just FOT) undervalue history and core values.

Today's executives are for the most part, clueless. They were groomed and came through the ranks during the wonderful 90's and early 2000's when everybody in the world was making money. Combine this with the [foolish] idea that an MBA and rotational program is all true leaders need and that a "manager is a manager" (you can thank Jack Welch for this...who contrary to all the bean counters that admire him, really gutted the know how of GE), and you got clowns that fail miserably.

Most management at companies now spend more time sending emails, making powerpoints, and having conference calls than getting down and dirty and solving real problems. America was built on leadership that got dirty and came through the ranks.....now the over abundance of college "educated" management can't solve their way out of a hole in the ground *hint, stop digging, first*.

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #48 – January 16, 2015, 09:27:21 am

Quote from: D.J. Osborn – January 16, 2015, 07:36:43 am

The Foretravel "name" once meant an extremely high-quality, high-level coach, and the value of that "name" should not be diluted.

I believe that is what the current owners are trying to maintain with the new ih45.

I may be wrong, but I believe that the Nimbus is the entry level coach. I know that the Nimbus was still being built as recently as 2013.

I hope that the Realm is financially successful. If so, it may provide the support necessary for the company to continue with the current strategy.

Re: Foretravel Realm at Tampa rv show

Reply #49 – January 16, 2015, 09:39:11 am

This is all discouraging for me. My wife and I are in our mid 50's. We are semi-retired and we plan to buy a coach in the next year or two to fully retire. We've always camped...as backpackers then tent camping then a popup when the kids arrived. Life got busy and we last this lifestyle behind, knowing we'd full time at some point.

We never considered a motorhome until I found this forum. We don't like shiny and sparkly and fell in love with the classic old school design that Foretravel features. I'll take solid wood over laminate any time.

The passion these classic coaches inspires is awesome. The support this forum offers is amazing. Our research helped us decide that. 36-38 foot 1998-2002 320 would be perfect for us.
I just hope foretravel support and parts availability continues or we will be back at the drawing board.

Realistically we need this support for another 20 years in order for this to make sense for us.

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