Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

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Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

December 21, 2015, 01:20:38 pm

Our 1998 U320 4200 Front Entry Rear Closet Foretravel has developed a sudden, and odd, 110 volt problem. Everything on the rig is working fine except for:

The rear (zone 3) A/C unit
Mid (zone 2) A/C unit
AquaHot 115 volt heater
The 110 outlet mounted on the bottom of the overhead cabinet over the washer/dryer cabinet
The 110 outlet that the washer/dryer would be plugged into (if we had one installed)

All breakers appear to be fine, nothing tripped. The outlet on the side of the washer/dryer cabinet is working fine, as are all the other outlets to the best of my knowledge, including those in the basement.

All of these were working fine until a couple days ago. The AquaHot electric burner being non-functional is a critical problem as we move into winter.

Does ANYONE have any ideas what might be the common factor that links all these together?
Suggestions for troubleshooting?

Thank in advance, this one has me really scratching my head...

James and Susan
Alex and Elizabeth

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #1 – December 21, 2015, 01:27:00 pm

Are all the outages on the same 50 amp line (check your schematics - e.g. all on L1 or all on L2)?

If so, check operation of that line's main breaker (it may not look tripped, but intentionally shut it off and back on again).

Still bad? Are you getting power TO the breaker? Are the main lines coming to the breaker panel securely attached? How about at the transfer switch?

Do you have the same problem running off the generator? (if not, could be shore power problem or contacts in the transfer switch.)

If not the breaker for that line, and not a shore power problem at the pedestal, and all connections are clean and tight, the most likely culprit would be the transfer switch.

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #2 – December 21, 2015, 01:56:32 pm

Do you have an indicator? When our pedestal 50 amp breaker shorted, the gauge dropped to below 110v . Not a good thing, ended up replacing the transfer switch and the power cord connections.

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #3 – December 21, 2015, 01:58:20 pm

I tried resetting all the breakers (50 amp master breaker is ganged together) but still no power on those outlets. The pylon we hooked to when things stopped working was quite rough, so it's a high probability that the problem originated there.
Since tripping and resetting didn't fix it any other ideas? Maybe the breaker itself is damaged?

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #4 – December 21, 2015, 02:00:58 pm

Hrm. Maybe I need to open the breaker panel and test to see if power is getting to both breakers on the 50 amp master breaker? Any suggestions to narrow it down?

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #5 – December 21, 2015, 02:02:45 pm

Have you tried to fire the gen set and checked?

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #6 – December 21, 2015, 02:10:43 pm

Look for a GFI that might be tripped. There should be one in the bathroom and maybe anther somewhere.

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #7 – December 21, 2015, 02:13:26 pm

Quote from: joeszeidel – December 21, 2015, 02:10:43 pm

Look for a GFI that might be tripped. There should be one in the bathroom and maybe anther somewhere.

Worth a try, but very hard to believe a tripped GFI could trash half the coach.

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #8 – December 21, 2015, 02:20:20 pm

Drawings are most important as you can follow the diagram and "see" what outlets are affected by which circuit.

I would follow Michelle's suggestions.

Good luck, take your time and you will find the problem.

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #9 – December 21, 2015, 02:55:10 pm

Quote from: mike leary – December 21, 2015, 02:13:26 pm

Worth a try, but very hard to believe a tripped GFI could trash half the coach.

Understand! And you are probably right. But Susan & I have found an amazing number of items and outlets in our coach are on the GFI.

We're also finding (since installing Progressive Industries HW50C with line monitors) that an amazing amount of stuff is on Line 1, with very little — at least very little that is currently being used — on Line 2. We'll typically see 16 amp load on Line 1, with something between 1 to 5-6 amps on Line 2. We're guessing that when we are back to air conditioning, we'll see that even-out with both units running.

We do have a schematic for our coach in the original documentation binder (as Michelle suggesting you check, James). With the HW50C and at least minimal ability to monitor load, we now have more incentive to really determine what's on each line. Do you have a schematic, James?

If not, Forum members, is that something James Triana could supply based on the build number?

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #10 – December 21, 2015, 03:16:58 pm

Quote from: Tigratrus – December 21, 2015, 01:58:20 pm

I tried resetting all the breakers (50 amp master breaker is ganged together) but still no power on those outlets. The pylon we hooked to when things stopped working was quite rough, so it's a high probability that the problem originated there.
Since tripping and resetting didn't fix it any other ideas? Maybe the breaker itself is damaged?

Are you still using this suspect pylon? If so look here for your problem.

Let us know if you still have the same symptoms on the generator.

Another thing to add to Michelle's list of things is if you have a cable reel you may have shorted out a brush or commutator ring.

Pamela & Mike

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #11 – December 21, 2015, 03:21:38 pm

He could, but if you have the big white book look near the back, there are pages that describe the 120 volt systems and detail what is on each half of the 50 amp line and what is on each circuit breaker. If you cannot find it let me know and I will get you a copy from my 2001 U320.

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #12 – December 21, 2015, 03:51:47 pm

So, we all sit with baited breath, have given the OP more information than he needs. If I was the OP, I'd be in my chair with a cold one right now.

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #13 – December 21, 2015, 03:58:28 pm

Quote from: Tigratrus – December 21, 2015, 02:00:58 pm

Hrm. Maybe I need to open the breaker panel and test to see if power is getting to both breakers on the 50 amp master breaker? Any suggestions to narrow it down?

You should have a drawing that looks like the one below. Now, this is for a 2003 but yours is likely similar. It can be confusing to read (see the rectangular boxes on the left side of the drawing - biased left are those things on L1; biased right are those on L2), but in our case (if we were a 42'), all those big items would be on the same leg (L1). Front air is on L2. (None of the big items like A/C, AquaHot, etc. run through a GFCI; that is just for the items on a particular circuit (like a bunch of the duplex outlets). It sounds suspiciously like you don't have one of the 50 Amp hots.

See if you are getting 120V to both L1 and L2 input side of the ganged 50A breaker. If 120 is coming in on both, but not out on one, check connections at the breaker and if good, replace the breaker (Lowes; likely GE. Just take a photo of your existing breaker with your phone that's good enough to read all the markings/part number and visit the electrical aisle).

If 120V is not coming in on one leg:

First, check the shore power connection at the pedestal and meter it out. Do you have 120V on both hot lines?

If so, unplug and try the generator. Does the problem go away? If so, suspect anything from your shoreline male plug through the shoreline reel (thanks P&M!), to the transfer switch and the shore power relay and its contacts.

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #14 – December 21, 2015, 04:02:40 pm

Quote from: Michelle – December 21, 2015, 03:58:28 pm

First, check the shore power connection at the pedestal and meter it out. Do you have 120V on both hot lines? If so, unplug and try the generator. Does the problem go away? If so, suspect anything from your shoreline male plug through the shoreline reel (thanks P&M!), to the transfer switch and the shore power relay and its contacts.

What she said.

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #15 – December 21, 2015, 04:12:56 pm

Ok. Having run through much of Michelle's suggestions (sorry for the duplication about troubleshooting above, working from my phone which makes it awkward) I *think* I've got a handle on the culprit.

First off, we ARE on a new pedestal in a different campground.

All breakers have been cycled.
All the items that are NOT working do indeed appear to be on a single leg of the 50 amp (really two 50 amp circuits in two legs) system.
I did try the generator, still no power on that leg.
Taking the panel off I tested:
Voltage between the neutral and the black feeding one of the 50 amp master breakers and got 120 volts.
Voltage between the neutral and the red feeding the other of the 50 amp master breakers and got 120 volts.
So.
To me that seems to indicate that the bus transfer and the shore power cable and connections are all good. YAY!

My take on it at this point is that the electrical fault from the bad pedestal fried one of the 50 amp master breakers. If that's the case, now I need to find out what kind of breaker system this uses and where I can get a replacement breaker? This panel is different from the ones I'm used to (Square D). It looks sort of like the master breakers are in some sort of dedicated module, they don't look like they come out of the plastic base the way I'm used to breakers doing.

Anyone know if the master breakers can be replaced individually? Where you can get replacements?

Thanks to all the folks that have chimed in on this... Can't adequately express how helpful it is. :-)

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #16 – December 21, 2015, 04:19:29 pm

Was posting my reply while the above came in.

Posted a picture of the breakers, we'll be in Savannah GA tomorrow sounds like a trip to Lowes etc is in order.
Still need to positively ID the breaker make/model and how to replace whichever master breaker has failed. The plastic module on top where the master breaker are feels somewhat fragile, so I don't want to pull too hard the wrong way. :p

One of them has a GE symbol on it, one doesn't.

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #17 – December 21, 2015, 04:29:37 pm

I believe this is what you need

GE 50 amp 2 pole breaker

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #18 – December 21, 2015, 04:58:36 pm

I am going take a guess to say it is NOT the 50 amp breaker.

If you are plugged into a 50 amp plug you should be getting 240 volts between the the black and red wire. If you are getting that then check below the breaker where the lugs are (between where it says "Use in Boxes" You should have 240 there. If you have 240 v at the black and red wire but do not have it at the lugs below, then yes the breaker could be bad. When you flip a breaker off you need to make sure it goes all the way off. Sometime when only 1 leg trips you have to really push the breaker handle in the off position to make sure it resets before turning it back on. You would not believe how many trips I have made to customers homes to just reset the breaker after they have told me they did it already.

We do not have a picture of the full breaker box to see if all of the circuits you are talking about are in that breaker box.

Yes this is a GE breaker box. A regular double pole 50 amp breaker may go in this panel but not sure from the picture.

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #19 – December 21, 2015, 05:37:56 pm

Quote from: Tigratrus – December 21, 2015, 04:19:29 pm

Still need to positively ID the breaker make/model and how to replace whichever master breaker has failed. The plastic module on top where the master breaker are feels somewhat fragile, so I don't want to pull too hard the wrong way. :p

Quote from: prfleming – December 21, 2015, 04:29:37 pm
I believe this is what you need

GE 50 amp 2 pole breaker

What Peter said/shows - it's a single item that you replace - has both breakers.

It will be a GE; the tiny print will show the "series", if that's the correct term, for your breaker box. Should be available at Lowes; that's where we have found the proper GE 20-amp breakers (makes sense given there's a Lowes very close to FT).

They do wear out, at least the 20 amp ones due, not surprising given the heat and vibration they're subject to. We've had to replace several of our 20 amp ones, notably the ones closest to the floor/engine.

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #20 – December 21, 2015, 05:54:00 pm

The 20 amp breakers are the thin series (about 1/2" thick) and it looks like the 50 amp main is the thick series.

Be absolutely sure that all sources (land line, generator and inverter) of 120v power are off before removing and replacing the 50 amp breaker.

When you replace the 50 amp breaker be sure to make sure the screws holding the wires are tight. It is a good idea a few days later when you not connected to land line or generator or inverter to retighten these screws.

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #21 – December 21, 2015, 08:31:41 pm

Agree with Turbojack's advice that you need to verify that you are getting power to the line side of your main breaker before you start swapping it out. Line side is power coming into the breaker from the transfer switch, load side is the power leaving the breaker that energizes the panel bus. You should be getting 240v hot to hot on the line side when plugged into shore power.

Since the issue happens on both shore and generator power, I'd be looking at the transfer switch if you determine that there is no power on both legs of the line side of your main breaker.

If you do have power to both line side legs of your main breaker and are still not getting power to both legs of your load side, then indeed the breaker is your culprit.

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #22 – December 21, 2015, 08:56:24 pm

Quote from: rsihnhold – December 21, 2015, 08:31:41 pm

Agree with Turbojack's advice that you need to verify that you are getting power to the line side of your main breaker before you start swapping it out.

If you do have power to both line side legs of your main breaker and are still not getting power to both legs of your load side, then indeed the breaker is your culprit.

Tigratrus' post reads that he did confirm this

Quote from: Tigratrus – December 21, 2015, 04:12:56 pm

Taking the panel off I tested:
Voltage between the neutral and the black feeding one of the 50 amp master breakers and got 120 volts.
Voltage between the neutral and the red feeding the other of the 50 amp master breakers and got 120 volts.

He didn't meter across the 2 hots to make sure they're 240V (different phases), but he does have 120Vac coming in to the main breaker on both lines L1 and L2 from the transfer switch.

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #23 – December 21, 2015, 09:29:26 pm

Quote from: Tigratrus – December 21, 2015, 04:12:56 pm

Ok. Having run through much of Michelle's suggestions (sorry for the duplication about troubleshooting above, working from my phone which makes it awkward) I *think* I've got a handle on the culprit.

First off, we ARE on a new pedestal in a different campground.

All breakers have been cycled.
All the items that are NOT working do indeed appear to be on a single leg of the 50 amp (really two 50 amp circuits in two legs) system.
I did try the generator, still no power on that leg.
Taking the panel off I tested:
Voltage between the neutral and the black feeding one of the 50 amp master breakers and got 120 volts.
Voltage between the neutral and the red feeding the other of the 50 amp master breakers and got 120 volts.
So.
To me that seems to indicate that the bus transfer and the shore power cable and connections are all good. YAY!

My take on it at this point is that the electrical fault from the bad pedestal fried one of the 50 amp master breakers. If that's the case, now I need to find out what kind of breaker system this uses and where I can get a replacement breaker? This panel is different from the ones I'm used to (Square D). It looks sort of like the master breakers are in some sort of dedicated module, they don't look like they come out of the plastic base the way I'm used to breakers doing.

Anyone know if the master breakers can be replaced individually? Where you can get replacements?

Thanks to all the folks that have chimed in on this... Can't adequately express how helpful it is. :-)

You should be able to measure voltage (120) volts to ground on the two buss bar screws below the breakers to see if you are getting voltage thru breakers 120 volts to ground on red and black also on the two screws. None on there ,a bad breaker or buss screw loose.
Irwin

Re: Partial 110 volt system outage including AquaHot electric burner

Reply #24 – December 21, 2015, 10:43:55 pm

Depends on the meter that is used to measure the voltage, but it is easy to have a bad leg and a volt meter will show you having 110v between each hot and neutral (backfeeding). That is why I am saying check both the line (black and red wire) for 240v and then the lugs (load side) for 240 volts. If you do not have 240 v on the line side there then problem is somewhere before there such as transfer switch.

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