M11 engine heater activation

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M11 engine heater activation

January 08, 2017, 09:29:05 pm

Temperature 21 - 26 degrees in atlanta for the last couple of days....tried to start the coach parked in storage lot.
There are 2 switches marked engine heat on my 2001 m11
One on the panel below the sink counter along with the water pump switch, aqua hot, etc
The other is a lighted switch at the front of the base of the bed beneath the skirt.
Turned both on and waited 20 minutes or so but no indication it was working as the engine was very slow cranking. Did I miss something? First time I tried the heaters since I bought the coach.

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #1 – January 08, 2017, 09:34:30 pm

For the switch at the foot of the bed, you need to have 120 volts by plugged in or generator. also make sure the heater cord is plugged in, on our 03 you have to raise the bed and plug in the cord to a receptacle by the transfer switch. The aqua hot has to be hot to get any help for the engine heat from the aqua hot. 20 minutes will not do much good. maybe more like 4-6 hours.

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #2 – January 08, 2017, 09:43:11 pm

Block heater will take more than twenty minutes. At fifteen minutes or so, put your hand close to where the block heater is situated. It should feel warm. Better yet, with a digital voltmeter, check any outlet voltage before and after you flip the switch on the front of the bed. If the heater is working, there will be a slight voltage drop when the block heater is turned on. Turn the switch off before you crank the engine.

Winter starting brings out any faults in the starting system. Your engine should crank at almost the same speed in winter as it does in summer without using the boost solenoid. If not, it needs some updating.

Pierce

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #3 – January 08, 2017, 09:54:35 pm

Our 2001 U320 was a California coach. Imagine my surprise when I discovered there was no block heater, jus tva lighted switch and a receptacle with nothing connected. If it is cold out, the electric side of the AH will take a long time to heat the engine. The diesel heater side will heqt the engine up in about four hours. 13° this morning in Kansas City, three hours on the diesel side of the AH (it was on all night heating to coach) and the engine started right up, coolant temp was 65°. A nice spring morning.

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #4 – January 08, 2017, 09:57:17 pm

Yup, block heater switch ON and 120 VAC from shore power or generator. Agree, in the low 20's. better to leave it on longer.

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #5 – January 08, 2017, 10:45:09 pm

20mins is far too short of a time to expect any form of meaningful heat in the block. Just look at the size of the block and the amount of coolant?? I allow a minimum of 2hrs. Having the AH on all night with the selector switch under the sink ON is a far faster way to get the thing started.
Speedbird 1.

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #6 – January 09, 2017, 12:18:12 am

An ether start system was fit to these coaches for a quick reliable winter start if needed

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #7 – January 09, 2017, 01:47:15 am

Quote from: Caflashbob – January 09, 2017, 12:18:12 am

An ether start system was fit to these coaches for a quick reliable winter start if needed

Bob, I am glad you mentioned the ether system. My coach has the ether but I have not been able to find instructions for its use. I used a spray can of ether a time or two on a small airplane years ago but have never considered trying to use the one in the coach.

Does anyone have any words of wisdom concerning ether in these machines?

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #8 – January 09, 2017, 07:39:48 am

The either start system as far as I knew is a thermostat allowed aux start system limited to below 50 degrees. Metered shot with a single button push.

Obviously there needs to be ether in the can.

Used ether many times in below zero skiing use.

Lots of cold smoke for 60 seconds or so and extended cranking time from the altitude/cold and less amps from the cold flooded cells in those days.

Starters were rated for two minute cranking back then. Probably still. Never used more than half that.

And that was at -30 F. Brrrr cold in Taos, New Mexico.

Wrong place for a 300 cat ored.

.

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #9 – January 09, 2017, 08:31:35 am

Quote from: Jan & Richard – January 09, 2017, 01:47:15 am

Does anyone have any words of wisdom concerning ether in these machines?

Use of ether is occasionally discussed on the Forum. The comments usually indicate much confusion and trepidation on the part of owners.

Our mechanical C8.3 had it. I removed it. Personal choice. Our coach always started easily (down to 15 degrees) using engine block heater.

Ether bottle: When should it be used?

Ether start built into the coach

Ether start on mechanical Cummins

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #10 – January 09, 2017, 08:39:51 am

Use of ether is ABSOLUTELY determined by the design of your engine.

If you have an INTAKE MANIFOLD HEATER, as most modern diesels do, ether, hitting the red hot heater grid can cause an explosion!

If no intake manifold heater, you can use ether, but only very limited amounts, as engine damage can occur from using too much.

The engine block heater is a MUCH better bet if you are on shore power.

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #11 – January 09, 2017, 08:44:43 am

Quote from: wolfe10 – January 09, 2017, 08:39:51 am

The engine block heater is a MUCH better bet if you are on shore power.

Or if you are on generator, which I would have running anyway if we were ever inadvertently stranded in sub-zero conditions!

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #12 – January 09, 2017, 01:28:56 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – January 09, 2017, 08:39:51 am

Use of ether is ABSOLUTELY determined by the design of your engine.

If you have an INTAKE MANIFOLD HEATER, as most modern diesels do, ether, hitting the red hot heater grid can cause an explosion!

My understanding is that the M11 in our 1995 U320 has the electric grid intake manifold heater (but I haven't yet been able to confirm that). Therefore, I wonder why Foretravel installed an ether container and the dash switch to activate it.

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #13 – January 09, 2017, 01:47:52 pm

You should check and see if the ether is introduced downstream of the wire screen. The use of ether on a warm engine can cause severe damage. An example would be changing fuel filters on a warm engine, not being able to start it immediately and using the ether while cranking it. RV drivers are not usually up to speed on the dangers of ether so many RV manufactures don't install the ether system. When the ether is introduced into the intake of a warm engine, it explodes well before the diesel is injected. Easy to break rings, pistons and bend rods from the untimed explosion.

Pierce

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #14 – January 09, 2017, 02:08:38 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – January 09, 2017, 01:47:52 pm

When the ether is introduced into the intake of a warm engine, it explodes well before the diesel is injected. Easy to break rings, pistons and bend rods from the untimed explosion.

The last time I used ether was on my '47 GMC gasser. I have heard some "experts" tell rookies, "don't use too much", I just shook my head and walked away.

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #15 – January 09, 2017, 02:13:32 pm

I disconnected the ether start right after we got the coach. After 10 years there may be nothing in it anyway.

20-30 min on diesel burner will heat up the AH, 2-3 hrs minimum on electric. I like to allow 3-4 hours on engine preheat with the AH after it is hot to get the engine warm. Colder, more time. At home where it was -4 when we left this year, I ran it overnight.

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #16 – January 09, 2017, 02:35:54 pm

Foretravel is noted for having backups for most if not all essential systems. Removing a factory installed backup is not something I would do personally.

Below 50 degrees the ether start can work. Delivers a metered amount regardless of how long you depress the button.

I have been in places and temps and coach power conditions where the ether start was the only way to start the engine several times.

If the factory installed it assume its safe to use if needed.

Same as the heat strips in the roof airs. Unlike heat pumps they will work at minus temps.

Same as the propane cooktop. If no ac you can still light it with a flame.

Same as the 7832 refer. Will run on 12v and propane. or gen in an emergency on the road.

300 hour gen run time because of the .44 gph gen fuel consumption and 190+ gallon tank.

Gen dies and no shorepower you can fast idle the engine and replug the refer to the inverter side of the power system if no propane or an issue..

Lots of thought and hard experience went into this setup.

Fore's were rv'ers way before most traveled from power pedestal to power pedestal.

Any Rv can work that way. Most cannot dry camp very long or dry camp in winter.

Not as safe IMO.

Climate is what you expect. Weather is what you get. Hate to be restricted at all.

Lots of $ gen run time to heat the engine in winter versus the designed to be used ether start.

And the gen noise and smell. I have had propane and gas gens not start with std oil as at minus temps they barely turned over.

If a emergency happened in the dead of winter and you had no power and no gen run available the ether could be critical

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #17 – January 09, 2017, 02:39:00 pm

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – January 09, 2017, 02:13:32 pm

I disconnected the ether start right after we got the coach. After 10 years there may be nothing in it anyway.

We have the ether toggle on this coach, but does not light up. (whew). Ours has a block heater. Was the ether boost just for the DDs ?

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #18 – January 09, 2017, 02:44:15 pm

Mike,

NO. May be a switch because that feature used on other coaches and the dash was used on different coaches/different engines.

But the Caterpillar 3116 has an intake manifold heater grid, so, no ether was ever installed.

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #19 – January 09, 2017, 09:07:41 pm

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – January 09, 2017, 02:13:32 pm

I disconnected the ether start right after we got the coach. After 10 years there may be nothing in it anyway.

20-30 min on diesel burner will heat up the AH, 2-3 hrs minimum on electric. I like to allow 3-4 hours on engine preheat with the AH after it is hot to get the engine warm. Colder, more time. At home where it was -4 when we left this year, I ran it overnight.

Roger, What did you do to disconnect the ether start on your coach?

John M

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #20 – January 09, 2017, 10:05:36 pm

John,
I am pretty sure the ether canister in the back had a plug that I disconnected first or I cut and capped the wires. Then I disconnected the wires on the switch in front, removed the switch and put in another one that switches power to the outside cameras and monitor. FT has the small colored inserts for those switches with and without words and in different colors if you want to repurpose the switch. I found switches at my surplus store that fit perfectly in those holes for $2.95 each.

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #21 – January 10, 2017, 12:25:55 am

As a heavy duty mechanic I have used ether a lot, mostly below freezing or on an engine that should have been overhauled. The coldest I've had to start anything has been -30. The engine with glow plugs were always the easiest. That why my generator starts so
easily. The 8.3 is a different thing. When it was around 0 in Dec I started my generator over an hour before I wanted to get the Cummins going and it really helped. It wasn't perfect, I would expect that I should have to have the block heater on for at least 3 hours. Just about freezing my Cummins starts right up.

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #22 – January 10, 2017, 09:02:35 am

I've never heard of an M-11 with a grid heater. I don't believe FT would install an unsafe system-liability costs!

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #23 – January 10, 2017, 11:57:58 am

Quote from: oldguy – January 10, 2017, 12:25:55 am

The engine with glow plugs were always the easiest.

Yes, our generators have indirect injection engines. Most car diesels, RV generators are indirect injection with pre-combustion chambers. The injector sprays into this chamber with the glow plug also in the same chamber. The pre-combustion chamber has several holes leading out into the cylinder. Indirect injection engines have higher compression ratios as the air cools slightly when it passes into the pre-combustion chamber. The combustion process is a few degrees longer and the engine's "diesel knock" is much less. Ultra high pressure common rail injection sprays up to five times per injection period into engines and with a indirect injection engine, this is spread out over several degrees longer than the direct engines. We are still talking the whole process occurring in one seven thousandth of a second at high RPM. The penalty is reduced efficiency with the direct injection engines achieving 5 percent better efficiency.

Our Mercedes 300SD has almost 450,000 original miles yet even in sub freezing temps, it starts instantly after a five second glow. If driven later in the day, it needs little or no glowing. Such is the advantage of an indirect injection engine.

Turbo engines are harder to start as they have lower compression ratios. Our Detroits for example have about a 16 or 17 to 1 compression ratio where the non-turbo engines are at least a couple of points higher. Our fire dept had only Detroit 8V-71s and were parked inside with no engine heat. We always used two 8Ds to start and you could not push the starter button for even an instant without the engine starting even after the coldest night. Stationary generators can be supplied with different compression ratio pistons for the altitude they operate at.

Here is an image page for pre-combustion chamber engines. You can't believe how much the two factory tools to remove the chamber cost. I never used the "slide hammer" technique. The cylinder head can't be surfaced without removing the chambers. I've seen some "mechanics" remove them with a hammer from the back side: mercedes pre combustion chamber image - Google Search

Pierce

Re: M11 engine heater activation

Reply #24 – January 10, 2017, 04:16:09 pm

I have an old 6.9 in a '87 Ford pu. use wd-40 instead of either.. doesn't "fry" the glow plugs & works ok just not as quick as either

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