Rear Bulkhead Repair

Topic: Rear Bulkhead Repair (Read 5677 times) previous topic - next topic

Rear Bulkhead Repair

January 20, 2017, 04:45:21 pm

You will note in the first item of my thread, "continuing PDI" that Mr. Risch found an issue. Then from that I learned of check valves on the fresh water line and posted that separately. fresh water check valve (back flow preventer), for Newbies

Now it is time to report on the repair to the bulkhead and so I started a new thread for that that anyone seeking such can find it in a search.

Mr Risch noticed a small gap between the fiberglass and the structure of the frame near the rear of the utility bay door, right in front of the drive rear tires. When he found it, he called to say it needed to be sealed and he would take care of it.

Upon further work by the technician for Mr. Risch, he said it needed a more detailed look. If you, particularly a newbie, were to look under your coach at the rear bulkhead, you would see that the entire coach forward from the rear wheels/bulkhead is covered and sealed in by a fiberglass cover over all the frame and such. It was at the outside edge of this, the seal behind the utility bay door, where the fiberglass should seal to the frame but there was a small crack or opening about 1/8 inches wide along that edge. Water can intrude there from rain splatter but also the reel water hose was back flushing water into the bay before we owned it and seeped down into the bulkhead.

SO...MOT cut out a section of the fiberglass from one side of the coach to the other to expose the framework in the forward part of the bulkhead, to expose the metal tubing frame. In there was some rust, even some holes, in the outside edges of the square tubing which forms the forward part of the bulkhead to which the back attaches with about a dozen plus or so bolts.

MOT had a local shop remove the metal frame and build a new one. It is made one gauge heavier than the original and the bulkhead is bolted together with bolts and nuts, not self-taping type of screws as I understand what the shop told me.

In the photos below you can get a sense of what was rebuilt. They built an entire new section that goes from the utility bay hose door on back to complete the bulkhead. Next comes the fiberglass panel that covers all of this.

You can see that it is vital that we check the seal all the way across the bulkhead fiberglass to metal seam and along the outside edges too.

If I learn more about this process that might be of interest, I will advise or you send me a pm if need.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #1 – January 20, 2017, 04:56:56 pm

Mike,

Excellent write up.

It always concerns me when I hear that all you need to do to fix any bulkhead is clean the angle to square tube joint and then huck bolt it back together.

Sure, that COULD be fine. But it ASSUMES that the square tubing has not degraded. Boy is that an ASSUMPTION.

If rust jacking has caused multiple Rolok bolts to break and/or rust jacking has caused the basement floor (viewed from under the coach) to be raised where the beams are (rust expands compared with clean metal), opening it up is the correct treatment.

And, I suspect water intrusion into the wet bay is the #1 cause of bulkhead issues. Yes, up north where they use salt on the roads the salt water can migrate in past the Rolok bolt heads, as they were not sealed (the serrated head of the Rolocks allows a water path between the bolt head and the angle beam. Masking the bolt heads with tape and then using standard automotive undercoating on the angle where the bolts are located is a very good preventive.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #2 – January 20, 2017, 06:49:22 pm

Brett, should the bottom of tube not be welded to each other, or in other words a 100% weld aroud perimiter. That would surely be stronger??
JohnH

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #3 – January 20, 2017, 07:13:12 pm

John,

I'm assuming that the welding has not been finished.

This is a great set of photos. And yes, with the bottom open, install the next size larger stainless or hot dipped galvanized fasteners with nuts/washers at the other end. The Roloks should be destroyed in a special ceremony.

Back side of the big angle iron is almost always going to have quite a bit of rust even if the underside is very clean. Photo is of the first 18."

I drilled and then used a borescope to check the interior of our tubing for rust.

Pierce

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #4 – January 20, 2017, 08:02:52 pm

Well with that insulation already in I would think it IS done!!
JohnH

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #5 – January 20, 2017, 09:37:46 pm

Quote from: John Haygarth – January 20, 2017, 08:02:52 pm

Well with that insulation already in I would think it IS done!!
JohnH

Perhaps a trial fit with the insulation?

It looks as if photo #2 should be the first photo with the tubing tack welded into place. Photo #1 looks like the welding may have been completed and then the steel painted. I can't bring the resolution up enough to tell for sure. Like to see close ups.

Pierce

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #6 – January 20, 2017, 09:58:56 pm

Saw Michael's coach at MOT, two bays down from ours and the repair in progress. Keith also looked at ours and after the same inspection process it was determined that we too have an issue that should be addressed. The welder is coming Monday to take a look and give his recommendations as to what must be done. Not happy to hear that we had this problem but are glad that we were here to catch it and fix it. This problem is primarily hidden by the fiberglas underbelly cover and had it not been for Michael's current repair ours would possibly have gone undetected. This is not a deal breaker. It will take some shekels to repair but is repairable. This post is a great reminder for those of you with older coaches to have it inspected to assure that your bulkhead is solid. Even the most well maintained coach could have this problem.

Thanks Michael -

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #7 – January 20, 2017, 11:12:00 pm

"Next comes the fiberglass panel that covers all of this".
Pierce, this comment above seems to me to say that it is done as far as welding and I am not sure that any painting has been done, just different photo shots that give definition changes. Cannot imagine putting ins' in just to do a frame check.??
I would have had it removed to be welded 100%, lots of extra strength and movement possibilties. Just my 2 cents.
JohnH

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #8 – January 20, 2017, 11:58:18 pm

It was not repaired in place nor was it even repaired, the entire section was removed and remade. They used FOT drawings and specs except went with one gauge thicker tubing. This not that shop's first repair. MOT selected them based on history of several repair options. Mr Risch then went twice to inspect the progress.

I too went to the shop to meet the people, visit with them. Emphasized desire very good job. About all I could do, was not able to stay with them due to other activities plus I am not educated how to judge them. I know they varied from the original fasteners and if I had Brett or John or Don Hay around I might better have known if that phase was ok. They talked to me about the bolts and torque, tubing.....sounded good!

That said, I trust MOT and that has served me well, as I am sure you could do with other shops where you do business. MOT has always covered their work and I trust Mr. Risch totally, and he selected this as appropriate repair procedure,

The curiosity I had...as a novice...was how can you weld one tubing end to end to another and be strong enough when you put the new section up in place? Well, duh....just like I did with my framing wood, put a bracing metal along the sides of the tubing.

I bet you when Scott gets his done you will know much more as i suspect he has great knowkedge of such type of work and can hopefully document it better. I did not have a camera along when it would have helped track the progress!

Thanks for your interest, I value your help and advice..

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #9 – January 21, 2017, 12:08:07 am

No John, you are quite correct. The word was would seem to indicate that it was complete. They could have just tacked it, removed it and then finish welded it before installing it. Welders are usually pretty sharp as they have to be certified to do a lot of jobs like railings, staircases, etc. Does seem unconventional to have the insulation in place before finishing the bottom welds. With a wire feed, you can easily do overhead welds but like you say, why?

Pierce

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #10 – January 21, 2017, 01:09:58 am

As a point of information, the original welds were all done only on the two vertical sides, not at all on the top and bottom. This was obviously strong enough to serve the purpose, as long as the metal remains uncompromised by corrosion. The quality of the welds is very good on the welds I viewed while redoing the basement/bulkhead on our coach. That said, I welded all four sides of the tubing on my repairs. This requires extra work to end up with smooth joints which will not prevent the Fiberglas skin from tenting over the welded seams. This involves chamfering the edges of the tubing to create a space for the weld puddle to lay in as well as some careful clean up with a grinder. It is much more labor intensive to work this way and perhaps not really needed in the basement and wall framing. I will say that in the places where heavy duty stress is present like much of the supension and engine carriage etc., the tubing is usually welded on all sides and the quality of those welds look very good indeed.
Don

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #11 – January 21, 2017, 08:00:02 am

So how did they find your issue and now Scott's. I had both MOT and Rance look at my rear bulkhead many times when in for service. The last time was just last year. I like the way you say they are fixing it and it will prevent the sidewall issue I have seen after FOT fixed a coach.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #12 – January 21, 2017, 08:42:58 am

While at Xtreme Rance did look at our bulkhead and did comment that I should cover the exposed angle iron with a corrosion resistive coating - paint - and that I should monitor. Rance said that it didn't appear to require immediate attention but they would provide a yearly inspection to monitor the condition. He also mentioned that while I was down there I should place some screws to "pull up" the edge of the fiberglass pan by the angle iron on the bulk head and seal the edge. I think the trigger here was the edge of the fiberglass pan hanging down slightly - maybe .125" by the angle iron cross piece. This allowed water to get to areas that are unseen.

The causality of bulkhead corrosion has been documented on this Fofum in many threads, ie: Fresh water tank overfill, waste water leakage, fresh water pump leaks as well as fresh water hose leaks as well as driving in rain and salt covered snow/slush.

I believe that the detection of the issue and the remediation was based on experienced eyes having seen many good ones and many that required repair. I understand that Michael, while at MOT yesterday, asked Keith to look closer and our assembly as his is being repaired as we speak. The underlying theme is that these assemblies should be inspected, and with time and increased corrosion, a rebuild and replacement may be required. The cost is not significant in the larger scope of FT ownership and might be considered necessary for some of our older coaches. I consider this in the same category as air bag, tire and other maintenance/replacement items.

While our assembly has been repeatedly inspected over the years, most recently one year ago, in our case, time is our enemy and a lot can happen in a year.

I would guess Michael will add comments when he sees these latest comments.

Regarding the amount of welds that are used to secure the parts together, I will inquire when the part is being fabricated as to the increased effectiveness of more/longer welds. I think that generally speaking more is better but do not think that that is always true. Sometimes welds can weaken the assembly and only through yield and tensile as well as destructive testing results can produce accurate data that can be reviewed to determine process effectiveness and define best practice. Sometimes the fabricator/welder has acquired the necessary experience to assemble the part using a wld pattern to best secure the parts together. I hope that is the case with these rebuilt assemblies.

More to follow.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #13 – January 21, 2017, 09:42:46 am

these comments of mine are only my thughts but having spent many years in the metal business ie- fabrication (but not as a welder/ engineer, I personally woyld do 100% welds. I seem to remember Bernd's frame replacement being that way and then ground down on the top and bottom faces for the finish materials then painted.
This also does not allow any moisture to creep into the inside of the build.
Just my thoughts.
JohnH

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #14 – January 21, 2017, 10:15:23 am

John and Scott...MOT and Xtreme both may have seen this as they had the coach within the last year, Xtreme when I had the small delam repair maybe. But they were not asked to do an overall coach inspection. Even for me, I thought a quick check of the metal seam for a wave.

In this visit I had not asked MOT to look at the bulkhead....recall that for this Annual i added a request that Mr Risch spend two hours just looking around, no check list. I reported elsewhere what he found. I run often into customers that seem to think annual maintenance would catch other things, not so.

The only thing about the bulkhead Mr Risch saw on this topic was a clue by a small gap between the underneath fiberglass and metal, where it is supposed to be tight, sealed. Not so much of a gap so as to hang down, just more like a visible small space where he saw missing sealant. I could have noticed when using the utility bay. There was no fiberglass visibly loose across the coach side to side where sealed to the bulkhead.

It reminds me of the lack of really good seal of the fiberglass edge MOT James Johnson found when he did slide bladder replacement. In that case though it is only visible when the slide is removed. James added new sealant simply as precaution to moisture intrusion with a resultant delam. I had no damage, this just opportunistic precaution.

That is what Risch at first thought was needed on the undeneath fiberglass. Reseal. Note, when apart, the only real rust damage was at the ends of the tubing at curb side. There was not much rust and no holes that i saw beyond the two ends where it was sugnificant. The welders showed me the holes, really thin metal that did remain, and the tube was packed with dirt and rust. Was not a new thing, been going on.

The welders said my damage was quite minor compared to the repair done before me where there was even some bending of the metal frame due to loss of some structure.

Scott will know much more so maybe await his analysis as do his work. I counting on that to judge if mine done correctly but i have no reason to think not. Risch has been very good judge of what to do and how and watching my dime yet knows I will not save money to buy an inferior anything.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #15 – January 21, 2017, 12:50:42 pm

How much did all this cost, Michael? I've got a feeling that I will have to budget for this, after I replace my radiator.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #16 – January 21, 2017, 01:03:24 pm

I hesitate to answer you but want to help. This was managed by MOT and the billing is from the shop to them.

I was told an estimate of $3000 plus some change possible, TBD after extent of damage determined and repair completed. Took two guys. I cannot say if they spent every minute on it or parts of days, but was at their shop 2.5 days.

will be glad to share actual cost when get bill.....it came along during Annual Service, so I have that bill plus the several things that were found in the inspection that were small and in the other report I posted but then this added substantial to the bill.

Good thing we love the coach or may have to argue with Jackie on repairs, but she never a question about any expense on it, none!

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #17 – January 21, 2017, 07:26:57 pm

Good to know, we will be in Nac. later this spring for Extreme to do their thing & will have MOT do an inspection. .... fingers crossed

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #18 – January 22, 2017, 12:10:18 am

Mike,

I remember someone commenting that his insurance paid to have his repaired.
Have you or anyone explored this? I am looking at another coach and hope it does
not have a problem, but it seems most do. Almost makes me want to stay with an
older coach with an Oshkosh chassis, old man with an old coach.

Carter-

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #19 – January 22, 2017, 01:21:15 am

This was long term damage, usual wear and tear i think, not from an incident. Would not deter me buying a coach. just inspect for it, factor in cost or possible cost if not carefully prevented.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #20 – January 22, 2017, 11:39:45 am

Mike, I do not think it is usual wear and tear but under the heading of most not knowing what to do to prevent this issue. I guarantee 99% of owners do not keep a regular check of the issues UNDER the coach (it is almost impossible to do) and those Rolocks etc and this is what causes the later problems. FT built great coach's but fell short on a few issues that cause major $ problems to owners.
Most also have bad water leaks that are NOT fixed asap and door seal leaks along with wet bay opening leaks etc etc that all add to problems. Many pictures that are posted show me that these issues are not looked after. I am continually going from front to back making sure I have no road water entering anywhere and if I see it I fix it. Spraying the Bulkhead angle and under it is a big part in Preventative care to keep water going past those Rolocks. (Brett has mentioned this many times)
I do realise many cannot do this due to one issue or another but it has to be done by someone in the know.
Respectfully.
John

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #21 – January 22, 2017, 11:48:48 am

My reply about normal wear and tear was really rooted in insurance language. If something could been prevented regardless the effort, if not from an event as an accident, they not pay.

It seems to me few know all the ways to do maintenance or what needs maintenance and thus some things become fairly frequent repair needs over the years.

Thanks

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #22 – January 22, 2017, 12:09:18 pm

My comment was regarding the Bulkhead issue and exactly the one you also mention " many do not know what needs to be a regular issue to keep it in good condition". we all spend thousands buying /changing them but I still say the one item that is regularily overlookeed is the underneath. Then an issue happens and we say "why"?
A nice shiny body and fancy fridges are fine but not much good if we let them rot from the bottom up. Good thing they can be replaced (framing) or it would all be for nought.
I am not implying anything else.
JohnH

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #23 – January 22, 2017, 12:42:07 pm

John,

When my partner first visited the states, he could not believe how we polish the paint and Armor All the interiors but neglect to detail the engine and undercarriage when we sell our vehicles. Quite right about focusing on the shiny interior but ignoring some easy maintenance that is not so visible. Out of sight, out of mind. All RV have some weak points and ours are no different. Buyers need to focus less on the vinyl Ultraleather, instead checking the known areas that are potential trouble spots. It's just not that hard to start with bulkhead in relatively good condition and replace the Roloks with better fasteners. If the coach is driven in winter on northern roads, the belly HAS to be washed down to minimize the damage they do. Otherwise, there WILL be problems down the road. Same goes for water leaks, etc.

The older the coach is, the more of a knowledgeable DIYer you must be. Otherwise, you wake up one morning with a damaged bulkhead needing extensive repair or a damaged engine. Just because a manufacturer designed it a certain way, does not make it correct. I remember the saying in the 60's, "question authority." For many RV problems, it's "question the manufacture" when certain issues keep cropping up. Nothing worse than parents who think their child never does anything wrong and keep defending them against all evidence to the contrary.

Pierce

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #24 – January 22, 2017, 01:08:07 pm

As for insurance paying for both kid repair, it is a function of how the loss is presented to the insurance company.
If the damage is believed to be due to water leakage into the wet bay area, in general you will have an insured loss if water damage is covered in your comprehensive policy.
If the damage is deemed to be due to normal wear and tear, road salt, or other normal everyday operating procedures you likely will have your claim denied.
I believe Bernd Ramspeck has had at least two large repair is covered by insurance in this manner.

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