Rear Bulkhead Repair

Topic: Rear Bulkhead Repair (Read 7630 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #100 – January 29, 2017, 08:01:05 am

Neil -

Can not argue with your comments. As stated before I am rather new to the Fofum and FT ownership. Needless to say I was not around 8 years ago and was glad that our problem was identified and corrected even though I am a bit lighter in the check book today.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #101 – January 29, 2017, 11:30:44 am

Quote from: Carol & Scott – January 28, 2017, 07:45:53 pm

I might be wrong but MOT does not like to check the torque of the Rolok bolt heads as they believe that checking the torque to 250in /lbs could lead to bolt failure.

While I have not talked with Keith about this, I do know this is Xtreme's position. And, I do NOT agree with it.

Of the several thousands Roloks I have checked (yes, with a torque wrench), I have broken ZERO. Have I discovered broken Roloks-- yes many, many of them.

What is the difference? The broken end of the Rolok is badly rusted. Repeat ALREADY rusted. It had previously broken and long enough ago to badly rust the break. It was holding absolutely nothing. They break where the threads meet the "first" wall of the box beam. The Rolok will either torque or pull out with 4-5 threads and a rusted break end.

There is a reasonable explanation ( I guess) for the "don't torque" mentality: If I check the bolts and find them broken (always hand them to the guy for whom I am doing the inspection) and the coach goes to Xtreme a couple of months later, Xtreme does not really know if the bolts were already broken (they were) OR if the torquing broke them.

I feel I would be doing an incomplete job of a mechanical inspection to just visually check a bulkhead and ignore the structural condition of the bolts. Ya, it would save me a half hour per coach, but still wrong.

Is torquing the Roloks the "end all, be all"-- heck no. But, along with visual inspection for rust jacking, it is an important part of the process.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #102 – January 29, 2017, 11:53:08 am

Quote from: wolfe10 – January 29, 2017, 11:30:44 am

I do NOT agree with it.

I second that, in spades. I've used torque wrenches all my life, both inch & foot. Had a very expensive set of Snap-Ons and trusted them. That being said, if you let a child use an adult "instrument", a chance is being taken, with wrong calibration (or cheap tools) that breakage can happen, which is prolly why some outlets don't do it.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #103 – January 29, 2017, 12:06:40 pm

I hesitate to add to this thread, but I do feel that I paid my dues in regards to the bulkhead issue

My opinion, and you all know that is worth what it costs... the easiest way to be sure of your bulkhead condition is to remove a Rolok and look at it. Torquing the the Rolok will likely tell you if the Rolok is compromised in the first 3/8" or so by water or road chemicals, I don't believe it will tell you whether or not the the Rolok is rust welded to the back side of the tubing. My reasoning is that if the Rolok has not been weakened where it passes through the 1/4" angle iron from external sources of corrosion, the the shaft of the bolt will probably be strong enough to stand up to the 250 inch pounds of torque without breaking, as the failing torque of the 5/16-18 Rolok fastener is 450 - 600 inch pounds.

On the other hand, if you can't remove the Rolok without it breaking, then you know there is an issue that needs to be explored under the fiberglass skin. True, if you don't have separation and it withstands the torque test without breaking, the Rolok may well still be holding the bulkhead together while the basement framing is rusting away, but that doesn't assure you of a clean bill of health. I don't wish to dispute the common wisdom, but my experience with the bulkhead joint has been up close and personal and I have given it a lot of thought. Now removing a portion of the the bottom skin will tell you without a doubt about the condition of the basement framing, but I would say attempting to remove the Roloks one at a time and if they come out intact, cleaning the threads and reinstalling them before removing the next is a potentially less invasive way to determine if the joint is sound. Of course, I would NOT advise anybody to do the removal of Roloks that look good on a bulkhead with no outward signs of problems such as rust jacking or separation unless you are in a position to do something about it should there be bad news.

I could go about this at some length, but the above is the gist of my takeaway from having spent the better part of two years grappling with this issue, before we even ever took our first camping trip in our new to us coach. At least now, I feel confident that I will never have to address this issue again on our coach.
Don

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #104 – January 29, 2017, 01:29:14 pm

Don,

Absolutely agree, there are a number of ways to verify the integrity of the bulkhead. I seem to recall that someone used an inspection camera/snake camera to visually check out the box beam. All good.

And, as you stated, if you are going to remove all the bolts (one at a time!) I would sure be someplace where repair could be done were you to discover a real issue.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #105 – January 29, 2017, 01:37:55 pm

I agree with Don and invite all to read about my experience by searching for "Bulkhead Horror".
A caution on removing Rook bolts and reinstalling. I did that and found that some would strip before reaching the recommended 250 inch pounds, while others, which did sustain 250 inch pounds, subsequently fell out on the road and disappeared. If Roloks are removed, I would coat them with a phosphoric acid (rust converter) paint (like "one step") before reinstalling. This will neutralize the rust present and keep the bolt secure (like lock tight).

The other important factor is that Rolok bolts will perform as designed only when the bolt is installed perpendicular to the angle iron it is going through. Some of the Rolok bolts I removed were bent at the head because their hole was not drilled perpendicular to the angle iron. I suspect that the installation of Rook bolts was given to the "low man on the totem pole" who had little understanding about how to properly install Rolok bolts.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #106 – January 29, 2017, 01:46:31 pm

Don't think I have any problems but here is a observation, if for any reason one would remove a rolok I think it would be a good idea
to have one of those rust proofing cans with the long extension and spray inside for good measure.Also what is the consensus
unless the one you remove is in pristine shape to replace it with a new one?

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #107 – January 29, 2017, 03:20:13 pm

Does foretravel make available a schematic for the under floor steel structure or do you just do lots of measuring before you start cutting out the old structure?

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #108 – January 29, 2017, 03:29:37 pm

MOT's Risch used some FOT drawings to go over with the welder. You might check with Keith to be sure I heard Eric, MOT Service Manager correctly on that. But I gathered were drawings of original design and specs.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #109 – January 29, 2017, 03:35:28 pm

Fear of God sort of thing ... Crawled around under my coach today and it looks good. I am not in a place or position to fix anything and don't have my in-lb torque wrench with me so no playing with the Roloks. The bottom 6 inches or more of the vertical bulkhead on the outside and several inches in on the bottom of the fiberglass have been coated with spray on undercoating, twice. It looks like it is time for some more. All of the Roloks look tight, secure and square. I picked at a couple and there is no apparent rust on the outside. There are four (maybe six) round plastic plugs, maybe an inch and a quarter in diameter, across the bottom through the fiberglass maybe an inch or more in front of the rear vertical bulkhead. They are all coated with undercoating and the one I picked at didn't want to come out easily so I left it alone.

The bottom fiberglass skin is dead flat, uniformly even with the bottom of the angle at the bottom of the vertical frame. That is encouraging.

And there are two open holes, maybe 3/16" diameter near each the end of the vertical bulkhead through the fiberglass into the end tube. They are not sealed up or have plugs in them. They are not plugged up with stuff from the inside, a small phillips screw driver slips right in. No moisture, nothing damp. I cleaned off the end of the screwdriver and pushed it in and scrapped it around inside. The tube feels quite solid from the inside. It came out with a bit of red dust on the end but no rust bits or anything coming out of the hole. I have a bore scope but the hole is too small to get it in there. Are these supposed to be there? Were there plugs in the holes at one time? Should they be sealed up?

What about the 1-1/4" plugs? Inspection ports perhaps? Are they original?

I am open to comments and suggestions, Thanks. The concern level went down a bit.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #110 – January 29, 2017, 03:42:51 pm

Highly likely the 1.25" plugs are to access the "back" of the beam. They allow a broken Rolok to be removed (double nut it and bring it out the "back"-- toward front of coach if you are working on the rear bulkhead) and then a through bolt with backing washer installed.

Look carefully at the bolt head opposite the plugs. Likely it has a slightly different head than a Rolok. If so, it is a bolt. This is a very good repair assuming that the beam still has integrity. I describe just this kind of repair in my original Bulkhead document at the top of this section.

If you have replacement plugs, you can also remove one or more to allow you to inspect the "back" of the beam for signs of rust and/or signs of water penetration. Press on the foam insulation surrounding the hole to make sure it is dry.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #111 – January 29, 2017, 03:50:04 pm

Well, reply #100....hi there Harley! Hope your family is petting you some today, you deserve it.

And Neal, love the term...corrosion products! Cannot wait to use that on my mechanic friend Don. It is hard to get ahead of him.

Neal, you, John, Scott and Brett and others have a lot of knowledge of bulkheads. We are seeing that on this one thread but I do not know if the problem is representative of a large audience or small?

If large though, then could someone develop a simple system to monitor the inards of these bulkhead areas, check the conditions? I think John H posted a way to access and check inside the tubing side to side? Don and Brett both mentioned some type of scope arrangement but I do not recall the specifics, nor how you could maneuver a camera around the box frame section to section? Maybe there is already a good access method and point, but if not design and install one.

Just think, after a clean bill of health by the scope, check it again very x number of years, sort of on the schedule of a colonoscopy (terrible comparison I am sure!).

I liked John's idea of cutting the fiberglass skin to inspect if nothing else would be comprehensive.

It seems there are infrequent repairs but perhaps some owners that do not know of the repair needs do not give us a good picture of the prevalence. How many know to prevent the damage, how successful is that preventative maintenance if done by casual owner and do we have a guideline for inspections? This is all touched on within this thread but if not already consolidated somewhere, it could be valuable if produced and posted as a guide.

Perhaps someone has or would take on writing this........ "Bulkhead Maintenance, Inspection and Repair For Dummies"

You might begin with this by Brett, Bulkhead Repair.....A Comprehensive Look, posted eight years ago.
And the photos by Barry were really emphasize the need for care, Making sure the fresh water tank is completely full

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #112 – January 29, 2017, 03:58:11 pm

Thanks Brett, the 1-1/4" plugs look like they are in there on purpose, equally spaced and symmetric. All of the bolt heads look the same as far as I can see.

What about the 2 small weep holes in the bottom of the cross tube at each end? The idea of a drain point sounds like a good idea to me. Should they be plugged or shielded against road spray?

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #113 – January 29, 2017, 04:36:06 pm

Like Roger, I too have the 1-1/4" plugs in the Filon, on both the front and rear bulkheads When we got our FT 16 months ago I noticed one of the plugs was missing, and if I remember correctly it was laying on the shelf in the wet bay. I noticed at the time that the Rolocks and bolts (different heads) alternate so there is a bolt, Rolock, bolt, etc.

Looking inside the hole with a flashlight prior to installing the plug everything that was visible seemed fine. The exterior has no undercoating anywhere, no visible rust and only a minor bit of deterioration in what appears to be a thin piece of aluminum flashing protruding from between the angle iron and the Filon.

The Filon belly pan is flat and even everywhere as well.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #114 – January 29, 2017, 04:53:59 pm

Sure a pity that for this reason alone my pit is far away from most owners as I would love to get to cut some of the Filon sheeting away if one suspects a problem with Bulkhead. Cutting old section out and making a new piece and install would be done for 30% cost of what was posted most probably.
As mike mentioned I drilled holes in side wall of tubing to spray inside the pipe with wax oil. I realize the rusting starts from outside.
JohnH

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #115 – January 29, 2017, 04:57:37 pm

My coach has some of the 1 1/4 plugs and they are opposite 3/8" bolt heads meaning 9/16 wrench size. PO must have done a repair of broken bolts.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #116 – January 29, 2017, 06:11:06 pm

I replaced all of the Roloks in the front bulkhead joint with new ones I bought from Foretravel when I had the bottom skin completely removed, so I was able to see the back side. I also separated the front bulkhead joint and cleaned both sides of it and did the Por-15 treatment on it. Even though all but one of the front Roloks came out intact (that one the curbside outermost and the pointy end was inside the longitudinal frame tube and so I didn't remove it since there was no access to the back of it and there was room to drill a new hole next to it and install a new one), I considered drilling out the holes and using the same 3/8" ARP stainless bolts with weld nuts, but I was running out of time. I torqued all the new one to 250 inch pounds and so far, all are holding tight. I considered that the front bulkhead joint has no ties to the front suspension like the trailing arms in the rear to put the joint under tension, as when applying the retarder. It is true that the rear does pull at the front bulkhead joint through the intervening basement framing via control arms, but as long as the longitudinal stiffeners that are inside of the battery compartment and propane compartment are sound (at least in our vintage of coach), the trailing arms don't act directly on the front bulkhead joint like they do in the rear every time you apply the retarder. Because of the fear that the Roloks wouldn't hold as well once reinstalled, I replaced all of the vertical Roloks that hold the basement floor to the compartment walls with the same ARP stainless fasteners that I used in the rear bulkhead and used 1/4" thick rectangular washers (these were ready made UniStrut items from Home Depot) on the back side of the tubing and nuts to secure the basement between the bulkheads. The one exception to that are in the two thinner partitions that run between the fresh and waste tanks and between the LP/battery compartment and fuel tank. The 3/4" thick rectangular tubing used for that was not large enough to accommodate the nuts so I used the Roloks and slipped square nuts into the tubing from the outside edges. I took fairly detailed photos of the process which are in a few different threads on the forum if any body wants to search it out.
Replacing the vertical Roloks with through bolts and nuts added a lot of time and effort to the overall process, but knowing that replaced Roloks are not likely to hold as well as freshly drilled and installed new ones was a motivating factor. This next bit is my speculation: One reason for this is that the Roloks installed when the coach was instructed were probably not torqued, but rather predrilled with a 9/32" drill bit and shot in with an impact, which likely resulted in overdriving some of the fasteners to begin with and weakening the thin walled tubing. Fortunately, the design was such that not every fastener had to be doing its share to hold the coach together. However, corrosion and neglect cuts that margin of error overtime. Bottom line is, I still love our coach am not regretting all the countless hours I spent getting it to this point. I made it our own in the process and consider it unlikely that I will ever feel compelled to go bigger, newer, or fancier.
That said, DYMYH (with respect to the late, great, Dave M)
Don

Quote from: P. Wyatt Sabourin – January 29, 2017, 01:37:55 pm

I agree with Don and invite all to read about my experience by searching for "Bulkhead Horror".
A caution on removing Rook bolts and reinstalling. I did that and found that some would strip before reaching the recommended 250 inch pounds, while others, which did sustain 250 inch pounds, subsequently fell out on the road and disappeared. If Roloks are removed, I would coat them with a phosphoric acid (rust converter) paint (like "one step") before reinstalling. This will neutralize the rust present and keep the bolt secure (like lock tight).

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #117 – January 29, 2017, 07:01:48 pm

FWIW -

I might be mis understanding the issue and I don't want to be argumentative, about the Roloks, but if you look at the pics attached/below you will see that the large 1/4" wall tubing that the Roloks go into from the angle iron, appears to be rusted but not rusted through like the 1-1/4" X 16ga tubing that is the floor structure in both corners. Is it possible that even if the Rolok does not break that there could be heavy corrosion just beyond the 1/4" wall tubing? And if the Rolok does come out and is a bit rusty does that mean that the square 16 gauge tubing is corroded? How much corrosion is too much? I would venture that most have some rust. I am not sure.

As I said before, I am no expert in these things as I am not a welder or structural engineer but I would rather spend $300/$400 to know for sure. I was a Quality Engineer and I do not think that there are enough data points to determine any kind of a trend or specific causality. I will again defer to the more experienced here that have been working with this problem for years.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #118 – January 29, 2017, 08:31:37 pm

Like all RV's, FT's watertight integrity is primarily dependent on caulking................and there's a lot of caulking.

My best assessment is that unless the coach has been in a salt-laden environment (ie: northern winter roads, a coastal location, or
submerged from flooding on the coast) then damaging water penetration comes from above the floor in the form of a leak.

So far everyone here with the type of structural damage that's being discussed has had their insurance pick up most, if not all of the cost. One of the greatest assets of an insurance policy is having peace of mind. If you don't have peace of mind then you should increase your coverage.

Our FT is now 14 years old, with no sign of extended bulkhead or compartment floor frame damage to the original untreated steel.
Being that old I'm sure there's some rust in there, and that it won't look brand-new if I tear it apart. So I'm going to go the other route; I'm going to do my very best to keep water from getting in anywhere, and if and when the bottom falls out I'm going to call my insurance company and file a claim, then get out to Coach Buck City and have it fixed.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #119 – January 29, 2017, 08:38:18 pm

Photo of a plug.....very hard to remove the plug, seemed tight and sealed. But may have just been sealed with corrosion products. Some material inside that I guess was part of the plug to hold it in place, but rust, lots of it, was holding it too. Hard to dig the plug out.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #120 – January 29, 2017, 08:48:07 pm

I'm with T-man. My bulkheads look to be in good shape as of now also. Maybe because it's been a so cal coach? Will inspect again after this trip. Have to say, this has been a great topic.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #121 – January 29, 2017, 08:50:31 pm

Wonderful topic....but I'm seeing "Roloks" in my dreams.

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #122 – January 29, 2017, 09:15:24 pm

I bought a first-class ticket on a luxury liner and would prefer to spend my days up on the promenade deck rather than down in the boiler room. LOL

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #123 – January 29, 2017, 09:28:12 pm

T-man...I just fell off the couch laughing. DW said hospital..?
That was great...!!! love it

Hans

Re: Rear Bulkhead Repair

Reply #124 – January 29, 2017, 09:31:29 pm

Sooner or later we are all destined for a trip under the poop (tank) deck. Hope for the best.

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