Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Topic: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission (Read 2440 times) previous topic - next topic

Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

July 24, 2017, 04:23:02 pm

Went thru the posts and could not find any that related to replacing a Allison 4000R Transmission.

Transmission cooler failed on our 2000 u320. Saw trans fluid floating on the coolant. The only way oil can get into the coolant is via the trans cooler as far as I know. The oil is not black so it is not engine oil. It is orangish beige oil. Coolant level seems to be little low too. Cannot check trans fluid level without running the engine and getting it up to temp. So have a trans cooler in route from FOT to a shop that will change it out tomorrow here in Richmond IN. Have to drive 6 miles to get there so when I do I can check the trans fluid level from the shift console that will verify that it is over-filled revealing the worse news I can think of right now. They will flush the coolant system and replace with new.

Allison says ANY coolant OR more that 0.2% water in the transmission requires a rebuild. So after I get the cooler replaced and the coolant cleaned up, will drive 105 miles to the allison dealer in Fort Wayne IN. They said if there is any contamination in the trans fluid don't even bother changing it when the cooler is repaired. The damage is already done as far as the trans is concerned. Don't waste $ on trans oil that will be drained again and scrapped in another 100+ miles.

Allison is talking $7K for a remanufactures trans, done by a company called weller. they are a certified allison remanufacturer and only use Allison Parts. Then there is the 2 days labor to remove and install. No telling how long we will have to wait to get the trans though. They have to build it up since it has a retarder on it.

Anyone have any other thoughts or alternatives. Full-timing is fun except when you breakdown. This will be only the second time in 14 years, but this one will be the most expensive one yet. At least we did not have the embarrassment of having it brought in on the HOOK.

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #1 – July 24, 2017, 04:30:28 pm

Tom,

Go out and pull the transmission dip stick right now and let us know what you find. Do not start it.

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #2 – July 24, 2017, 04:33:51 pm

A couple of members have had their cooler fail. Was about $11K with new cooler and rebuilt transmission installed. Do a search on the forum. Another had theirs rebuilt by Allison Mexico for $4xxx (they were in Mexico). Here is another possibility: HD4000 Rebuilt Allison Transmission, Global Industrial Automatics | eBay

They have a contact number on the page. I think a heavier duty cooler is available.

Pierce

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #3 – July 24, 2017, 05:15:12 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – July 24, 2017, 04:30:28 pm

Go out and pull the transmission dip stick right now and let us know what you find. Do not start i

If you have a camera, a pic would be helpfull, as well.

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #4 – July 27, 2017, 10:14:20 am

Nothing to take PICs of yet. Waiting for rebuilt trans now. since it has a retarder, it had to be built to order. only takes 3-4 days to deliver. Took new FT cooler ($2250) to a local shop to have it replaced so we could drive 100 miles to Allison shop in Fort Wayne IN to have trans replaced. They said to be at their shop at 8AM. Was there and at 2:30pm they were going to put me in. I questioned that they couldn't do a good job in 2-1/2 hours. They agreed that if something went wrong I would be in their sop for another day and a night in a motel. NOT GOOD. I also realized that if they changed the cooler and cleaned up the coolant side and put the same contaminated Transynd back in No point to put in $400 of new fluid just to have it contaminate the cooler again and need to e replace a second time after the trans is replaced. Called Allison and they said there was no problem driving 100 miles to get it to them. They said they could change the cooler at the same time they did the trans. That way the cooler would be brand spanking new for the new charge of transynd.

So we added 2 quarters of std Trans fluid and hit the road. that is how much I had lost in this failure. No problems driving. Got to Allison they got us in within 1 hour and they checked the Trans fluid. It was about 750 PPM contaminated with glycol. Allison actually has a test kit that takes about 1/2 hour to run and it does a chemical analysis in a glass tube that gives you a range of contamination. Less than 50 PPM is still bad according to Allison.

We want to do another 180 mile drive to visit sites while we were waiting for the new trans. They said, no problem. The damage is done and it takes a lot of miles of contaminated fluid before the trans stops functioning. They said I could probably drive on it for another 2-3 months without a problem. Remember there is no alarm that says you have a failed trans cooler. Since the leaking is internal most people don't know they have a problem until they get an alarm from the trans that it has an error code OR is stops shifting all together. I was lucky that my wife pointed out a squeaking A/C belt and I notes a dark line in the Coolant burp bottle. Trans oil floating on top of the ccolant.

P.S. a trans cooler failure always has both trans fluid and coolant going both ways. Under way the trans fluid is higher pressure than the coolant and the trans fluid goes into the coolant. When the engine is stopped and cooling down now the Coolant pressure is high er than the trans fluid side so the coolant goes from into the trans side. My only concern is the possible damage of the trans fluid in the coolant getting into the radiator and engine. Allison said they have a machine that totally flushes the system with a neutralizing solution to clean it out. They must do a lot of these jobs to have special testers and flushing equipment for both the trans and the coolant systems. The Allison shop in Denver I talked to said they had 3 transmissions waiting to be rebuilt from the same cooler failure.

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #5 – July 27, 2017, 10:23:59 am

In heavy equipment engine oil cooler failures are common and there are degreasers that flush the oil out of the cooling system. The oil clings to the liners and the radiator tubes so a degreaser is necessary. I would think tranny fluid would clean easier.

Follow-ups
- Preventative Maintenance Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #6 – July 27, 2017, 10:57:35 am

Quote from: craneman – July 27, 2017, 10:23:59 am

In heavy equipment engine oil cooler failures are common and there are degreasers that flush the oil out of the cooling system. The oil clings to the liners and the radiator tubes so a degreaser is necessary. I would think tranny fluid would clean easier.

Is there preventative maintenance that we can do to reduce this risk?

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #7 – July 27, 2017, 01:54:42 pm

Can we gather information on the cooler failures in Fortravel coaches? It would be interesting to see how age effects these failures. How many have failed and what is the cost to replace before a failure?

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #8 – July 27, 2017, 03:22:18 pm

Mark,

Oil sampling and coolant sampling for contamination but when you find out it is to late. Anti freeze attacks the bonding of the friction clutch plates disc to the backing plates, and it starts flaking off. If you do not catch it in time clogs the filter and transmission self destructs. . I am sure there is a air to oil cooler that would work but where would you mount? I like the idea of collecting information and see if there is a pattern on failures and change out before it fails.

Charlie

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #9 – July 27, 2017, 05:08:02 pm

Quote from: Charlie G – July 27, 2017, 03:22:18 pm

Mark,

Oil sampling and coolant sampling for contamination but when you find out it is to late. Anti freeze attacks the bonding of the friction clutch plates disc to the backing plates, and it starts flaking off. If you do not catch it in time clogs the filter and transmission self destructs. . I am sure there is a air to oil cooler that would work but where would you mount? I like the idea of collecting information and see if there is a pattern on failures and change out before it fails.

Charlie

An air-to-oil cooler could work. I had one on my previous coach with 4060HD (Vogue) which was mounted separately just below the engine radiator. However, that coach had a Jake brake rather than retarder so the heat rejection needs were substantially lower than a tranny with a retarder.

Since I started reading here about these failures I've thought a bit about the issue and figured the best way might be a separate radiator with electric fan mounted alongside the A/C evaporator on drivers side with an upgraded alternator.

Big issue for me would be sizing. Unlike engines that are typically supplied to OEMs with heat rejection specs, I don't see any specs for that in Allison literature.

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #10 – July 27, 2017, 05:17:30 pm

Another problem with air to transmission cooler is that in winter you can OVER-cool the fluid.

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #11 – July 27, 2017, 05:27:42 pm

I have a Jake on my Cummins M11 and Allison.
Sounds like a better mouse trap is needed. The cost of a new/rebuilt trans because of a cooler failure seems like a very high price to pay for something that should be done another way.
I like John's idea of documenting this problem. If nothing else I would rather pull out the cooler and have it serviced or rebuilt at a certain age or mileage point.

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #12 – July 27, 2017, 05:36:13 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – July 27, 2017, 05:17:30 pm

Another problem with air to transmission cooler is that in winter you can OVER-cool the fluid.

Good point Brett. Guess the electric fan would have to have a thermostat control and maybe sizing for minimal heat dissipation without the fan.

It was never a problem for me with my previous coach as I've become very much a warm weather seeker. Once it gets down to 40 at night, I move further south

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #13 – July 27, 2017, 06:02:40 pm

Quote from: Lon and Cheryl – July 27, 2017, 05:27:42 pm

I have a Jake on my Cummins M11 and Allison.
If nothing else I would rather pull out the cooler and have it serviced or rebuilt at a certain age or mileage point.

My OEM cooling system the transmission cooler and the engine radiator were combined, there was no standalone cooler for the transmission. I say were as a standalone cooler for the transmission was installed when I experienced a failure several years ago.

Roland

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #14 – July 27, 2017, 07:19:27 pm

Quote from: Mark Duckworth – July 27, 2017, 10:57:35 am

Is there preventative maintenance that we can do to reduce this risk?

When I was a heavy equipment mechanic, coolant wasn't used. Just water with an anti-corrosion additive. The equipment didn't get acidity tests in those days. That was why the oil cooler failures. In my own Cat's I used a product called Stay-Clean which prevented bubbles on the liners and prevented corrosion. I never lost a oil cooler on my own equipment. Most of our coaches are well maintained and failure would be rare. The coolers always failed from the coolant side from electrolysis.

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #15 – July 27, 2017, 07:21:25 pm

I think the coolers have to flow about 8 gallons per minute. The air cooler does sound like the way to go to insure there are no failures and a coolant/ATM mix. The problem with changing them out every few years is the Cummins/Allison cooler costs $2800. Detroits get off easy at $200 to $500 for a cooler that looks the same. Don't see any reason for the high price. The $2200 I saw quoted above is less than I have seen online. $11K is a high price to pay for a tiny leak in the cooler. That's as much as some coaches are worth.

For an air cooler with fan, the extra front to back wires could be used to turn it on.

Pierce

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #16 – July 27, 2017, 07:29:38 pm

Try SEN-DURE MFG. STEWART WARNER COOLERS. But air coolers would be the way to go

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #17 – July 27, 2017, 08:18:58 pm

U-tube bundle coolers can be bought with stainless tubes for slightly more than Cooper and a lot more erosion resistance. As small as it is I would guess under $1K. I will price up one in the next couple of days if I can find the pressure rating on the tranny side.

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #18 – July 27, 2017, 08:53:10 pm

I believe with a retarder 60 GPM max flow

Charlie

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #19 – July 27, 2017, 09:02:59 pm

Retarder Capacity

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #20 – July 27, 2017, 09:35:52 pm

These coolers are really industrial commodity items. Size them by horsepower, inlet and outlet sizes, dimensions and there are likely hundreds of different stock coolers that would do the job.

Or just run water with dca4 additives per cummins. Not an option for all, of course but the antifreeze is for freezing temps.

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #21 – July 28, 2017, 07:15:28 am

Rocore Cooler Specs

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #22 – July 28, 2017, 07:58:15 am

On the first two attachments looks like I missed one side when scanning..... I can correct tonight and resend.

Sorry

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #23 – July 28, 2017, 09:37:32 am

Quote from: Old phart phred – July 27, 2017, 08:18:58 pm

U-tube bundle coolers can be bought with stainless tubes for slightly more than Cooper and a lot more erosion resistance. As small as it is I would guess under $1K. I will price up one in the next couple of days if I can find the pressure rating on the tranny side.

They are available in stainless. That should end the erosion problem but they are not cheap at $2800. Here is the cooler with what should be the correct part number: Oil Cooler 29538013 for Allison Transmissions - Heavy Truck and Bus (24167AM)...

Pierce

Re: Replacing an Allison World 4000R transmission

Reply #24 – July 28, 2017, 07:43:48 pm

Quote from: Charlie G – July 27, 2017, 08:53:10 pm

I believe with a retarder 60 GPM max flow

Charlie

It's interesting that if you read through some of this document you find that an oil-to-air cooler is NOT recommended for a tranny with retarder, although they do not say exactly why (heat rejection capacity?).

Affiliate Notice