Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Topic: Intermittent Stop Engine Light (Read 3112 times) previous topic - next topic

Intermittent Stop Engine Light

August 25, 2017, 01:30:10 am

One problem solved (actually two counting the leaking fuel filter), another takes its place

The oil pressure sensor issue is completely solved, but now I have another that is trying to rob me of my equanimity. Fueled up at Sam's Club near Salt Lake yesterday (diesel $2.49.9 per gal) and was feeling good about the 403 mile run from Vegas the day before (no running issues, no annoying check engine lights, all systems go). Shortly after leaving Sam's, I got the dreaded stop engine light and the boost was basically turned off. The stop engine light only flashed for a split second and then went away. Rinse and repeat Ad Nauseum. We got off the freeway a couple of times where I would check things over and cycle the switch on the chassis battery disconnect. It would get back on the expressway just fine, boost and all, and then shortly thereafter it would start happening again. The diagnostics log on the VMSPC wasn't all that helpful giving a number and then "Bad Program" and sometimes unknown component.

Well, I once experienced a similar issue that turned out to be something nasty growing in the fuel system which seemed to be solved with a primary fuel filter change and doeses of biocide at each fill up. We filled up at the Sam's Club in Murrieta Hot Springs on the way to Las Vegas (being kind of punchy from the process of getting ready to leave, I neglected the biocide

Anyway, I carry a couple of spare primary filters and the fuel that I drained from the leaking secondary looked clean before I changed the filter, so I did a quick change of the primary (should

have changed it when I changed the secondary!). The one that was on there was the Baldwin which didn't have a clear bowl, but it does of course have a drain. Well, draining it revealed that was definitely contaminated! Okay, I got out my new filter and the clean clear plastic bowl and installed it. Unfortunately, I didn't have any clean diesel to prime it with, so I just used the key on for thirty seconds and then off again to cycle the electronic lift pump that the ISC's have. I thought that should work to purge the air, as Cummins says specifically not to prime the secondary filter but to use the lift pump to fill it, or it might damage the fuel injection pump. Anyway, that seemed to work for a little while, but soon it started happening again, though maybe not as severely. I stopped multiple times, drained a bit of fuel into a clean glass jar from the primary fuel filter, and it looked fine.
I have one more spare primary, but I thought it might possibly be some air (listed as a possibility by the Cummins Trouble Shooting manual) so I pulled out my Cummins InLine 5 interface a tried to fire up my Toughbook with the Cummins InSite software (which I bought as a package on eBay a couple of years ago). After a couple of frustrating hours of trying to get the software to work (don't ask!) I finally managed to get it working. With this, I was able to get some more specific information about the fault codes. It involves the CAPS fuel injection pump giving an over pumping indication which cause a derating. Following that troubleshooting tree, the first items are fuel contamination, air in the line, and possible incompatible fuels that don't meet the Cummins specification. I suspect I got one or maybe two loads of crap diesel from Sam's Club. To try and eliminate the air in the line scenario as suggested by the trouble shooting tree, I used the software tools to run the lift pump override test from the ECM test menu of the InSite software. With the key on, it just runs the lift pump for 60 seconds (engine not running) to cycle the fuel through. I did this 3 times with a minute or so between each test which should help purge any air. I also ran the click test for the CAPS pump and that passed normally (this tests the valve and two solenoids that are part of the CAPS pump). I considered putting in my last primary filter, but the fuel coming out of the clear bowl of the primary was still looking clean.
Hoping that the air purge would do the trick, we hit the road. Everything looked normal for the first ten minutes, and then... well you know the rest

Well, it was a bit better overall as the boost kept working normally, but any prolonged pull under moderate to high load, would flash the stop engine light and in a couple of cases, it would last until the grade leveled off. Naturally I was not pushing it mostly keeping under 60. Only 130 miles total today and it almost feels like I did it Fred Flintstone style. Tomorrow, I will try to have a fresh look and we will try and make it to a Kenworth Shop, to at least stock up on a bunch of fuel filters and possibly to have them look at it. Worst case scenario, a bad CAPS injection pump (I really, really don't want to go there!). Best case, and most likely in my mind is bad fuel. I will stop at the very next truck stop and see what kind of magic juice they have for fuel treatment, so feel free to recommend your favorites! Thanks for slogging through this rather long post, but I doubt I will be the last to experience the dreaded bad fuel issue, so maybe our outcome, whatever it is might help the next guy or gal. I am to tired to do anymore searching tonight, so if anyone wants to link a thread you think might be helpful or relevant, pleas do!
Don

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #1 – August 25, 2017, 03:33:59 am

Good morning, Don. When I recently had our oil changed at the local Cummins dealer, I asked about additives. He pointed out that Cummins recommends Power Services brand. Power Services products are available at Wal-Mart. The PS Clear-Diesel Fuel and Tank Cleaner might be something to consider.

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #2 – August 25, 2017, 06:12:47 am

Spent HOURS doing scientific researching and bought two additives:

Opti-Lube XPD
Multi-purpose + anti-gel
cetane improver, demulsifier
XPD Diesel Fuel Additives (RED) - Diesel Fuel Additives

Star-tron
Disperses bacteria without the use of poisons/biocides
Star Tron Enzyme Fuel Treatment Diesel Additive

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #3 – August 25, 2017, 08:11:39 am

Quote from: Don & Tys (AKA acousticart) – August 25, 2017, 01:30:10 am

I stopped multiple times, drained a bit of fuel into a clean glass jar from the primary fuel filter, and it looked fine.
I have one more spare primary, but I thought it might possibly be some air (listed as a possibility by the Cummins Trouble Shooting manual) so I pulled out my Cummins InLine 5 interface a tried to fire up my Toughbook with the Cummins InSite software (which I bought as a package on eBay a couple of years ago). After a couple of frustrating hours of trying to get the software to work (don't ask!) I finally managed to get it working. With this, I was able to get some more specific information about the fault codes. It involves the CAPS fuel injection pump giving an over pumping indication which cause a derating. Following that troubleshooting tree, the first items are fuel contamination, air in the line, and possible incompatible fuels that don't meet the Cummins specification.

Hoping that the air purge would do the trick, we hit the road. Everything looked normal for the first ten minutes, and then... well you know the rest

Don - are your fuel lines original? ... Noting that you have a 1999 and many folks with a 2001 going back to the 1996's have had to replace their fuel lines due to cracking/air...

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #4 – August 25, 2017, 08:52:15 am

Thanks for mentioning that Michelle! In my fog last night I forgot to mention that the fuel lines (all of them!) were changed at Foretravel in November of 2013. One of the first things to be considered with fuel problems on these vintage coaches!
Don

Quote from: Michelle – August 25, 2017, 08:11:39 am

Don - are your fuel lines original? ... Noting that you have a 1999 and many folks with a 2001 going back to the 1996's have had to replace their fuel lines due to cracking/air...

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #5 – August 25, 2017, 08:53:28 am

I use the optilube also and the biocide

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #6 – August 25, 2017, 09:38:34 am

Don, if they start talking about replacing the CAPS pump make sure it is the
problem. I replaced mine ( leaking) 2 years ago they are pricey.

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #7 – August 25, 2017, 09:46:28 am

Regarding the lubricity enhancers... found an interesting test linked here;
Lubricity Additive Study Results - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel...
This was linked from the Optilube site but doesn't appear to have any ties to the company. Some of the additives appear to decrease the lubricity of the USLD. Among them was ValvTect! I have been using ValvTect's Biocide (not the same stuff as the lubricity additive, but it does make me want to choose a different brand for algae assassination!). Now to research the biocides...
Don

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #8 – August 25, 2017, 09:53:31 am

Don,

Sorry for continued problems. We have never had to deal with these things (knock on wood). I know in the past Brett W. has often mentioned a "fuel polishing" process to deal with contaminated diesel. If you decide this current problem is caused by "dirty" fuel, I am wondering if there are any kind "fuel polishing" services available along your route, perhaps at truck stops or diesel fuel suppliers. If feasible, seems like getting the whole tank of fuel cleaned/filtered/treated all at once would be better than having to stop every 100 miles for the next week to change out filters.

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #9 – August 25, 2017, 10:34:19 am

When I first saw which area the leak was coming from, that was my worst fear, but that leak proved to be the filter (the one mounted on the engine near the CAPS pump). I think fuel contamination is far more likely, but some of that may be just my fervent hope. However, I know it is possible that the CAPS pump itself could be the culprit until proven otherwise. If you don't mind sharing, who did yours and how much did it cost? Go ahead, I am sitting down...

Don

Quote from: bbeane – August 25, 2017, 09:38:34 am

Don, if they start talking about replacing the CAPS pump make sure it is the
problem. I replaced mine ( leaking) 2 years ago they are pricey.

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #10 – August 25, 2017, 10:50:10 am

Algae is either the problem or it's not. If you find algae in the primary filter, then it's the problem. Going through several filters usually does the job. If you can see down in the tank (you can on our U300), use a bright LED light and a mirror to look at the bottom of the tank once the tank is low. You can use the HWH to lean the coach to one side and then using a pump/hose combination, remove the algae and water from the bottom. The LEDs/mirror will make sure there is nothing stuck on the walls of the tank.

I installed a pressure gauge on the outlet of the secondary filter. Shows pressure after all the filters and lift pump at idle. You would need a camera to see the pressure under load (or a gauge with a sender). Cummins lift pumps DO have occasional problems.

After fueling and while the engine is idling, check the see through bowl at the bottom of the primary filter (if you have one). If fuel contamination is not the problem, check the lift pump. Good article below.

CAPs injection pumps had a terrible reputation early on. They have improved since then but still very expensive to replace. Some go with the super reliable Bosch inline pumps but that's expensive too as other components have to be replaced also. Low fuel pressure from a restriction or bad lift pump can damage a CAPs pump. Not a problem with later common rail injection systems.

For those interested in the CAPs symptoms, etc, here is a quote from "Rich" in an article:

"Beginning in 1998, Cummins introduced the ISC based off the earlier mechanical 8.3 C-series engine. The original ISC engine featured a Cummins Accumulator Pump System (CAPS).
This CAPS pump was a computer controlled injection pump,with individual fuel lines to each injector.
In 2003 the HPCR system was introduced.
Cummins Accumulator Pump System (CAPS) fuel injection pump for Cummins 6 cylinder C series engines where used in heavy duty on-road, agricultural applications and many Motor-home applications.
Cummins ISC 8.3 300 Hp Warm engine rough Idle
Some time ago Cummins issued a service bulletin to change the wiring from the old connector and lead that goes to the fuel pressure sensor to a new connector and lead - an upgrade kit was issued for this which included a new connector, three crimp connectors and an instruction sheet.
A lot of time the connectors which are supposed to be sealed upon crimping, fail and the ECM sees the fuel pressure vary during idle hence rough idle and sometimes no starts.
The solution is twofold, one is to clean and inspect every connector (including the big one near the lift pump) and degrease/grease them with the right dielectric grease made for Packard connectors (a lot of techs fail to get that part).
The second is if the upgrade was done, have the tech properly splice (re-solder) the connection and use the correct method to seal the splice.
Also, check the Transient Suppressor. A bad one can damage the injector pump, and if you change the injector pump with out replacing the suppressor; will void the warranty.
Not always the problem, but worth a try!
Replacing the injectors will not solve a bad injector pump problem.
One brand new injector bad?
As the engine warmed up the O-ring on the injector expanded out of spec. and was failing.
To be sure that was the problem, moved the injector to different cylinders to see if the problem followed and it did, but the injector pump proved to be defective also! A relatively new injector pump about 6 months old and exchanged under warranty.
Internal seal-diaphragm can fail and fuel will pass into the oil, making oil! Not good!
Fuel Pressure Specs ISC Series (Minimum)
Low Fuel flow / Pressure can damage the internal electronics. The excess fuel is used to cool the circuits and then returned to the fuel tank.
HPCR CAPS
Pump 5 psi Cranking 5 psi Minimum
Gear Pump 10 psi Cranking 10 psi Cranking
70 psi @ rated speed"

Pierce

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #11 – August 25, 2017, 10:53:36 am

Don, I had that happen with the stop engine light coming on and off and I tracked it down to my coolant sensor on that metal expansion tank. It was going bad and as it sent no coolant present in the tank it would set the stop engine off. I got the error message on my silverleaf so I knew where to look

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #12 – August 25, 2017, 11:13:15 am

Don Cummins is the only ones that rebuild those pumps, there are no parts available for aftermarket repair. Cummins rebuilt was 3800.00 + freight, tax and install 5800.00 Freightliner in Decatur Al. Could have done it myself but a little difficult in a camp ground.

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #13 – August 25, 2017, 11:18:23 am

The pumps can be found now a little cheaper. This is just one of them.

Caps Cummins Injection Pump | Fuel Pump

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #14 – August 25, 2017, 11:25:48 am

Quote from: craneman – August 25, 2017, 11:18:23 am

The pumps can be found now a little cheaper. This is just one of them.

Caps Cummins Injection Pump | Fuel Pump

Any idea if that is a "Genuine Cummins Part" or a knock-off?

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #15 – August 25, 2017, 11:58:09 am

Don & Tys, So sorry you are having such a big problem. Hope it resolves quickly.

Your situation helps reinforce our desire to only fill at truck stops, with Flying J/Pilot as first choice, and to carry 3 spares of each of our Isuzu gen & Cummins engine fuel filters, along with a gallon of filter priming diesel fuel (in a red plastic gasoline container).

We also add a quantity of Power Service's Diesel Kleen with each fill up, and have started adding a container of their Clear-Diesel when storing our motorhome. We carry several containers of Power Service Diesel 9-1-1 and Bio Kleen, but have never used them.

Good luck and keep us posted.
Barry & Cindy

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #16 – August 25, 2017, 12:01:09 pm

Time for one of those fancy USB powered bore scopes...

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #17 – August 25, 2017, 12:06:54 pm

Don,

Good biocides are different than fuel system cleaners.

A widely used biocide, particularly in the marine industry is: Biobor Jf Fuel Additives - Products

Been using it since the late 1970's-- sail boats and motorhomes. Use it any time a "bio-problem" is identified (kill dose) and also when storing diesel for over 2 months in summer or 3 months in winter (maintenance dose).

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #18 – August 25, 2017, 01:27:25 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – August 25, 2017, 11:25:48 am

Any idea if that is a "Genuine Cummins Part" or a knock-off?

Genuine Cummins rebuilt $1,025 core charge. free shipping. Called to make sure.

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #19 – August 25, 2017, 01:33:36 pm

Thanks, Chuck.

Brett

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #20 – August 26, 2017, 12:36:23 am

Don, I read that Diesel lube chart a few years ago and started using the Amsoil one (of course) and "Diesel Kleen etc. Luckily never had algea problem and the fuel lines have not been changed and no hint of air problem. I firmly believe that due to us spending time in Mexico every winter and filling up with their diesel (mostly non ULS) and bringing 10 galls back in cans to add to next few fills has kept the hoses in ok shape. Have looked at them on tank top and no cracking but wrapped them in "resue tape " just to be safe.
Before putting in the Maple hardwood flooring I cut a hole thru floor to tank top to inspect and did the wrapping then.
I use Biocide every 3 months too.
JohnH

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #21 – August 26, 2017, 01:25:34 am

When my injection pump sprung a leak from an access port years ago, the transient supressor was damaged by the diesel saturation. I limped home and had Cummins replace the part. It was cheap.

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #22 – August 26, 2017, 09:52:30 am

Don- been there done that.

2 things I have had happen-1 the fuel- kill it with algaecide and filter out the bad stuff. If you want to you can make a simple stand alone filter system, connect it with fuel hose, use a small pump and pump your fuel through the filter and back into your tank. Probably will go through a number of filters and take time, but it can be done. Best way is if you are low on fuel to filter it to a drum and then filter it back but I am sure you don't have that kind of equipment with you on the road. If not, get more primary filters and change change change.

2- regarding the CAPS pump, I was having a bad time, changed filters, etc, still getting check engine light, power derating etc. Took it to Cummins Coach Care in West Chester Ohio and thought it was the CAPS, uggggggh. Turned out the pump was not working right because the wires from the ECM to the pump were shorting out- caused by being tight, heat, vibrations, etc. The fix was to take apart the wires, cut out the shorts and splice new wire in, they did put in some extra length so the wires were not so tight. Buttoned it up and no more problems. Took about 3 hours labor and 1.5 hours diagnostic time. With my Cummins Power Club card I got out for under $600- didn't know it was possible to get out of anywhere for under a coach buck. Check the wiring first before spending big bucks on the CAPS pump.

Hopefully your issue is just fuel but if not I hope my experience can help. Best of luck Don.

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #23 – August 26, 2017, 11:26:42 pm

We made it to Shelby Montana, driving mostly by the boost gage to forestall the dreaded "Stop Engine" light. I have added more biocide, Power Service Bio-Clean, and Clear Diesel fuel and tank cleaner. The Biocide isn't commonly available at truck stops, by which I surmise that it isn't a common trucker problem since they get fresh fuel at the major truck stop chains. We filled up in Great Falls (we still had half a tank of the questionable stuff) with plain ol' Diesel #2 summer blend. The current primary filter I will change out tomorrow. The Clear Diesel product is supposed to disperse water and "slime" so that it isn't clumped and therefore won't clog the filter. I noticed a change for the positive after the first day I put that in. I added more along with a kill dose of the Biocide with this fill up. Still to do is get a piece of clear tubing to reach the bottom of the tank so I can take a sample from the bottom where the slime coalesces. I am developing a new list of must have stuff to take with me... Hopefully, I will have that down before it is time to hang up the keys!
Tommorow's travel should bring some clarity to this situation, but I am convinced that contaminated fuel is the root cause of this problem. The electronic engines can seem finicky when this kind of situation arises, but without that level of system monitoring, I might drive on blissfully unaware of impending doom by the side of the road. That's my story and I am sticking to it

Don

Re: Intermittent Stop Engine Light

Reply #24 – August 27, 2017, 01:01:27 am

Question, I have had diesel mbz in Kansas for almost 20 years and never had an issue with algae or even added a fuel additive.

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