Airing tires from onboard hose.

Topic: Airing tires from onboard hose. (Read 3531 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #25 – March 10, 2018, 11:58:05 am

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – March 10, 2018, 11:12:40 am

I thought green caps were for nitrogen...

Green caps are for the more common, cheap, "regular" nitrogen, installed by a gas station grease monkey.

Blue caps signify that 98% PURIFIED nitrogen was installed by factory trained and certified Nitrogen Tire Inflation Specialists.

Red caps mean the nitrogen inflation machine malfunctioned and filled your tires to 250 psi. USE CAUTION when driving this vehicle!

See the video below for a full and complete explanation of this understandably confusing subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMk4rEBV9EQ

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #26 – March 10, 2018, 12:41:15 pm

Quote from: folivier – March 10, 2018, 11:07:50 am

To make airing the outside duals much easier I like to have a tire shop replace the valve with a shorter one and turned so that it is not pointed toward the inside. That way it is easily accessible.

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – March 10, 2018, 11:11:05 am

Concur! Also makes it easier to install tire pressure monitor sensors. Will get our valves done that way when we get fresh tires (soon).

I want to do the same as you do. We have tire pressure monitors installed and it is not fun dealing with the valve stem pointing inward. Regarding cost: We had to replace a leaky stem on a inner tire a last November, $37. Given how critical proper tire inflation is, I'm willing to pay the $74 to make the job easier on the outer tires. (Our tires are 3 years old this coming May, lots of travel left in them. I'd like to make this change asap, if it is doable).

So has anyone actually changed their outside dual tire valve stems to point outwards?

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #27 – March 10, 2018, 12:50:09 pm

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – March 10, 2018, 11:12:40 am

I thought green caps were for nitrogen or just easier to see.
I got 100 of them for $2.99
Easier to find when I drop them in the dirt

Amazon.com: Alonea 100pcs Fashion Plastic Auto Car Bike Motorcycle Truck...

These would be easy to see also.

100x Blue ABS Wheel Tire Tyre Valve Stem Caps Dust Air Cover Screw Car Bike...

As an Amazon Associate Foretravel Owners' Forum earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #28 – March 10, 2018, 01:00:25 pm

Quote from: Mike J – March 10, 2018, 12:41:15 pm

So has anyone actually changed their outside dual tire valve stems to point outwards?

Ours do, we did the change shortly after we got the coach due to Mike's health issues at the time and I was responsible for checking while he was broke down. As stated above it makes checking pressure and installing TPS a lot easer to do.

Pamela & Mike

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #29 – March 10, 2018, 01:04:16 pm

The long fill tubes has caused leaks for me in use from centrifical forces bending the tube and causing leaks at the gasket.

I use supported extensions on the inside duals and fill through metal caps on all tires.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #30 – March 10, 2018, 01:50:58 pm

Quote from: Bill & Kim – March 09, 2018, 07:55:24 pm

Had been using the onboard air compressor, which took forever to air up all 6 tires... with the engine running... annoying me and probably those around me.

Time, noise and air pollution are of concern to me, as well. When you say "forever", how long is that in Forum terms? Those little compressors are spendy, but if it's a "six pack job" to get 10/15 lbs in all tires, even though my storage space is shrinking, I might consider one.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #31 – March 10, 2018, 02:40:25 pm

Quote from: Bill & Kim – March 09, 2018, 07:55:24 pm

Simply attach it to your cars battery, start the car and start airing your tires.

B&K,
How much power cord and air line come with the Viair 40047 400P-RV?

And what about this one for less dough?
Amazon.com: VIAIR 400P Portable Compressor: Automotive

As an Amazon Associate Foretravel Owners' Forum earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #32 – March 10, 2018, 03:06:27 pm

Quote from: mike leary – March 10, 2018, 01:50:58 pm

Time, noise and air pollution are of concern to me, as well. When you say "forever", how long is that in Forum terms? Those little compressors are spendy, but if it's a "six pack job" to get 10/15 lbs in all tires, even though my storage space is shrinking, I might consider one.

Took me about 2oz. of scotch... much less than a 6-pack. Probably 20 mins. overall.

Quote from: Travelin' Man – March 10, 2018, 02:40:25 pm

B&K,
How much power cord and air line come with the Viair 40047 400P-RV?

The power cord (with two clips for battery terminal connection), is 8', air hose is 60' (in two coiled halves). The tire inflation gauge can inflate to 130# - very handy. The pump has 150# max pressure.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #33 – March 10, 2018, 05:04:27 pm

By maxing the D2 air controller valve to the 110/130 setting the air brakes stop the coach much better and the tires on mine at 87/97 psi fill quickly with the motor at fast idle. The manual release of air during the process that was posted works great to kick on the air compressor and to have it build up the air to its 130 top where you can hear the spitter pop off.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #34 – March 10, 2018, 06:03:30 pm

Quote from: Travelin' Man – March 10, 2018, 02:40:25 pm

And what about this one for less dough?
Amazon.com: VIAIR 400P Portable Compressor: Automotive

We went with the 450C due to the duty cycle. Yes more $ but well worth it. Shop around as you can find them on sale if you are not in a rush. Ours has about a 15' cord and we have 1 of the spring hoses which is plenty to reach around the coach when we hook to our house batteries.

Pamela & Mike

As an Amazon Associate Foretravel Owners' Forum earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #35 – March 10, 2018, 06:14:30 pm

This thread sure has moved along -

We have been carrying a small dual tank air compressor around for a while now. Coach, Jeep, bicycle tires and blowing air at what I want when. Much easier since we have been caretaking our 42 and have a cavern in our main bay.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #36 – March 10, 2018, 06:44:43 pm

Quote from: Carol & Scott – March 10, 2018, 06:14:30 pm

This thread sure has moved along -

Being the "threader" asking a simple question, I love it how the posts blossom into new worlds, but on topic (sorta kinda) !

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #37 – March 10, 2018, 08:27:57 pm

Quote from: Carol & Scott – March 10, 2018, 06:14:30 pm

This thread sure has moved along -

Not really, Scott.. Good information has been around the Forum for years, but the misinformation still abounds: For example, this thread:

Nitrogen in tires

All of the posts are easily discovered through the Forum Search Tool, but for the benefit of newbies: Just a reminder that the realities of physics and chemistry do not go away because someone pooh/poohs them, claims they have never witnessed them or has otherwise advised you to ignore them.

Do not even remotely consider putting un-dried air in your tires on a motorcoach! The tires already have enough lifetime challenges to deal with.

If we used our coaches daily, the tires would have far fewer challenges, but we don't drive them daily, so don't put "wet" air in them and make things worse. Idle coaches don't maintain a good distribution of the rubber "lubricant" compounds that are infused during the manufacturing process to help with elasticity, the lowering of permeability and providing more years of tire health and safety. Long term parking, particularly at less than sidewall rated pressures, develops "weak lubricant microstructure spots' that are more prone to "wet" air internal permeability damage and Ozone/UV external damage (external surface checking and cracking).

The argument that air "contains 78% N2, so I'm already covered" defies common sense as well as chemical reaction reality. 78% Pure N2 doesn't inert or protect anything. 95 to 98% pure N2 does. It's the 1 to 2% water vapor plus 20(+)% Oxygen that has been pumped into the tire that causes all of the harm inside a tire. The vapor condenses to a liquid at low temperatures but becomes a greatly expanded gas when at elevated temperatures. Thus the rust and corrosion (oxidation-reduction) effects when a tire is cool and then an overly exaggerated tire pressure fluctuation when the tire is hot, going down the road.

Just because someone hasn't seen rusted cords after a tire failure occurs, does not mean that the laws of nature are going to change or that oxidation-reduction chemical reactions will cease to occur. Water in a tire plus metal in the cords and in the wheel rims, means that the metals will deteriorate, through oxidation-reduction chemical reactions [rust, or corrosion in the case of Aluminum], at the rate that the laws of of physics and nature dictate, whether your advisor has witnessed it or not. Variables such as the highly important brand quality of your tire, the frequency of use of your coach, the humidity of compressor intake air, the proximity of tire use to design limits, the cord and wheel material type, the outside environment temperatures, the % moisture content in the tire, the lifetime inventory of road hazard damages to the cords and internal liner, and many others, all combine to determine actual failures. But if one can put a dry gas in the tire, eliminating all but a tiny fraction of the oxygen and water, a high percentage of the variables of concern will be all but eliminated.

If you have air and an air dryer on your coach, and you have maintained it properly (meaning there is no vapor/mist when you "blow-down-check" the wet tank), then that air is probably of the highest quality and the most easily available air that you will ever find. Increase the D-2 setting or connect your air hose directly to the D-2, if you want to increase the air hose pressure to shorten the duration of your tire "air-up" process.

Most tire service centers, all coin operated air stations, most of the advice you see here about small auxiliary air compressors, (depending upon local humidity) pump concentrated moisture forward into your tires and totally avoid common sense and the laws of physics/chemistry.

Water freezes at 32 degrees F decreasing.

Water condenses (out of the water vapor) at temperatures higher than 32 degrees F.

Compressing air concentrates the % water content in the compressor effluent.

In-line mechanical filters on an aux compressor, remove particulate contaminants, but only an unspecified small fraction of the total entrained water concentration (mostly due to the elevated temperature of the gas).

Our coach air dryers compensate for that through the use of a desiccant. Industrial applications have elaborate chillers and elaborate piping lines to cool the compressed air before the effluent reaches any desiccants. If inexpensive in-line mechanical filters were capable of overcoming the laws of physics and thermodynamics, believe me they would use them and escape the high costs.

Condensed water, sitting inside a tire that is pressurized with normally occurring free oxygen, will be pressed into the rubber and cords (under a microscope. the rubber looks like strings of spaghetti that are glued together; i.e. - the rubber is somewhat permeable and a 1 to 2.5% volume permeability/month is normal). The water/Oxygen will inevitably find every possible way to permeate the tire carcass and that leads to the oxidation-reduction of the metal cords. The water absorbed may also freeze and expand beyond the elastic restoration properties of the rubber substructure. That's why airlines and military aircraft mandate the use of a dry gas that will displace and not absorb moisture (Nitrogen).

Also, driving a tire down the road, with a chunk of ice in it before the ice melts, evaporates and turns to water vapor, will open up new microscopic ways for water to find the cords.

If you don't have air on your coach, or you don't have the patience to wait for the "low driving head" of the air system to air up tires, what are the reasonable options? Remember you have to eliminate water, or oxygen, or both is even better.

Pure Nitrogen and Carbon Dioxide are colorless, odorless, inert, non-toxic, non-corrosive, non-flammable gases.

Pure Nitrogen is less expensive to produce, but requires a large container for it to be stored as a compressed gas at normal human environment temperatures. Pure Carbon Dioxide is more expensive to produce but can be stored as a liquid, which overall, makes it much more portable and affordable on a motorcoach. On average, my 10# PowerTank aluminum bottle costs me less than $20/year to use (car, car hauler & boat trailers, 8 coach tires, golf cart and bicycles plus neighbors). Bicycles have the idiosyncrasy of requiring careful choice of inner tubes because many bicycle inner tubes are CO2 permeable (due to a lower grade rubber). Unlike a N2 tank of compressed gas, the PowerTank is always at 200 psig until all of the liquid is exhausted. It runs a 1/2 inch power tool with ease, weighs less than 25# when full and is easily portable.

CO2 PowerTanks are often available on eBay and Craig's List at reduced prices. I paid $300 for my 10# tank with a high flow regulator, a 1/2 inch drive Ingersoll Rand "air" tool, a full set of gauges, fittings, full size storage bag and a fresh bottle certification (good for 10 years IIRC).

Apples to Apples comparison and common sense dictate that a $200(+) aux air compressor pumping wet air into coach tires is less desirable than a $300 to $500 (or even full price - $600) CO2 PowerTank option.

HTH with all of the misinformation,
Neal

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #38 – March 10, 2018, 09:12:14 pm

I was an under experienced maintenance guy ten years ago in an electronic chip factory in our area.

We had a giant tank of nitrogen filled weekly with a semi full of gas weekly.

After that the nitrogen went through one of two ingersol rand commercial $10k refrigerated compressor nitrogen dryers..

Neal post is exactly what I have seen personally and heard and read myself.

Never put water or vapor in your tires. I have a 2,600 psi large air gas nitrogen tank here for everything.

The volume needed for rv tires would run the tank down quickly. I use two of the power tank guys tire fillers expensive ends. Best quality available normally.

Neal just motivated me to get a CO2 tank as the volume for a small tank is ten times my big nitrogen tank.

Thanks to Neal for explaining in detail what I have seen myself. I told customers in the 80's that the water vapor was being driven into the tires. Seems I was correct.

Thanks Neal

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #39 – March 10, 2018, 09:14:58 pm

I have Googled for tire damage from moisture in a tire for the last hour. The only thing that comes up more corrosion on the wheel and tire sensors. I even searched images. Read the bottom line from the Rubber Manufacturers Association . I know CO2 and Nitrogen are more desirable. But show me a picture of a rusting steel cord inside a tire that doesn't already have too much damage externally to be safe and I will eat my words.

Should I Use Nitrogen Instead of Regular Air in My Tires? | News | Cars.com

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #40 – March 10, 2018, 09:21:17 pm

Wish I had saved the pictures from my left front blow out.
Michelin, 8 years old. No visible damage, Steel in carcass all showed extensive rust, failure happened on cool tire in AM, with proper inflation.
Wet air not good for my tires, but as always, do what makes you happy

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #41 – March 10, 2018, 09:45:53 pm

I'll take your word for it Tim. I have had several front tire blowouts that didn't show corrosion on the steel cords. I thought that was a good indication of what is going on inside them. I guess I was wrong.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #42 – March 10, 2018, 09:52:23 pm

Interesting valid points Neal, which some I did not think about much, i agree condensate freezing is bad news. I don't have a moelire (misspelled) chart handy to check freeze point or condensation point at 100 psi. But I did look one-time at the PT chart to see when droplets expand to steam @ 100 psi and IRC correctly the tire was already toast at that point. Once oxygen is consumed during the oxyigination process it's gone. Fire sprinkler piping relies on this fact to keep from rusting thru while dormant and filled with water for 20 years or more. Very good info Neal.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #43 – March 10, 2018, 10:15:27 pm

I had many shredded coach tires on my Foretravel lot as sales manager in ca from 1986 to 1989. All showed rusty steel cords.

Tell me why I would lie about such a thing? Can still see this in my mind like yesterday.

I have posted here many times about this,

Probably why Foretravel equipped almost all l of our coaches with a dry air outlet.

Constant use may flex the tires enough to probably release the agent that permeates the carcass for flex and to lessen the water vapor travel through the carcass.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #44 – March 10, 2018, 11:12:47 pm

Quote from: craneman – March 10, 2018, 09:14:58 pm

I have Googled for tire damage from moisture in a tire for the last hour. The only thing that comes up more corrosion on the wheel and tire sensors. I even searched images. Read the bottom line from the Rubber Manufacturers Association . I know CO2 and Nitrogen are more desirable. But show me a picture of a rusting steel cord inside a tire that doesn't already have too much damage externally to be safe and I will eat my words.

OK

Would an article out of a well regarded trucking magazine (Overdriveonline magazine) and the picture of a truck tire failure caused by the breach of the tire's inner liner material which resulted in inflation air laden with moisture resulting in rusted tire cords failure be satisfactory?

Feature Article: Seven tire killers | Overdrive - Owner Operators Trucking...

The article focuses on an improper rope repair, stating: "A rope repair is a simple way to plug a puncture from the outside, but it often causes air to penetrate the belts, pushing them apart. Merely (rope) plugging a hole can also allow moisture from inflation air to get into the cords, and corrode them, creating a catastrophic failure later."

What is important is that it doesn't matter whether it is the result of an improper rope plug repair or some other permeation or breach of a corded tire inner liner. If a tire's inner liner is breached, moisture and oxygen will permeate the breach, infiltrate the area around the cord, break the rubber bonding with the metal cords, suffer oxidation reduction (rust or corrosion) and the tire will overheat and fail. The photo provides the documentary evidence that physics and chemistry march on regardless what some of us would rather believe.

HTH,
Neal

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #45 – March 10, 2018, 11:34:46 pm

Neal, I am aware of the damage caused by punctures breaching the liner. I only repair with a patch on the inside and realize that external moisture is going to occur and the steel is compromised once that has happened. I consider them unsafe and would not run it on a front tire. Because I have eight on the rear I move it there. I believe what Tim said, and even though I believed what was in the air of the tire could not penetrate the inner liner without external damage I will cede this argument.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #46 – March 10, 2018, 11:51:53 pm

the inside of a michelin has cords steel cables imbedded in the rubber that run from bead to bead. On may tire that blew -many of them were exposed after the blow out. While the event could have caused many of them to fail, enough failed on a 55 degree day, a tire whose inflation had been checked not 15 minutes earlier (110 psi) going 55 MPH or so on a two lane road not 10 minutes into the start of the trip.

all of the steel from inside the carcass showed signs of severe rust, many seemed to be less than 50% of original diameter by my estimate

8 year old tire

no special precaution re where air was added or moisture content of air tire sat 6 months of the year in FL while my Mom stayed in coach

As previously documented, damage to coach in excess of $6K (Extreme fixed, insurance paid)

I do believe that moisture can and does permeate the rubber and was the causative factor in this blow out, aided by the advanced age of the tire, sitting stationary for long periods and no real effort to reduce the moisture inside the tire - probably a worse case scenario

don't think if you had dismounted the tire and inspected this issue would have shown up in a visual inspection, even if you spent the money to bother to do it.

Tim Fiedler

Sure Start Soft Start

TCER Direct generator-gas-prod 630 240-9139
Gen-Pro

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #47 – March 10, 2018, 11:58:57 pm

Quote from: Old phart phred – March 10, 2018, 09:52:23 pm

..........................I don't have a moelire (misspelled) chart handy to check freeze point or condensation point at 100 psi. But I did look one-time at the PT chart to see when droplets expand to steam @ 100 psi and IRC correctly the tire was already toast at that point............................

Phred,
You don't need to go find your Mollier Diagram (Steam Tables). People are often confused about the difference between water vapor and steam.
Water vapor is just water droplets suspended in air (water/vapor mixture). Fog and clouds are visible water vapor.
Steam is water that has been elevated to a high enough temperature that, for the given surrounding pressure, the water behaves as a true gas, instead of as a subcooled liquid (water) or as a water/vapor mixture. Once the water becomes steam, it is a superheated vapor. Water at 100 psig, at the temperatures that our tires run, is nowhere near superheated vapor or steam..
HTH,
Neal

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #48 – March 11, 2018, 12:25:53 am

I am not arguing that dry air is not the best way to air up tires. However, I would like to point out that in the article, "Seven Tire Killers", the type of air used in inflation was not one of the seven listed. And, it was not something listed in the "Other Deadly Tire Issues". It was only mentioned as part of a problem with tire repairs.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #49 – March 11, 2018, 10:54:26 am

Tim the hidden rusty belts is what my shredded tires showed also, And maybe a little gold color discoloration on the intact parts of the inside rubber liner .

As you said lots of steel missing. Ugly. Without over playing this even more the correct comment for what I saw was scary,

If you run std air the 5 years change out might be a good idea. Trucker will put them on a trailer and run them out quickly.

Michelin guarantees 7 years, three retreads and or 700,000 miles on a Xza-3+ when run through their commercial recapper program for OTR truckers so they think with regular inspection during the process that their tires will last that long.

MAJOR DIFFERENCE the flex in constant use releases the agent(s) in the tires to allow this life.

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