Airing tires from onboard hose.

Topic: Airing tires from onboard hose. (Read 3531 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #50 – March 11, 2018, 01:00:57 pm

Quote from: ltg – March 11, 2018, 12:25:53 am

I am not arguing that dry air is not the best way to air up tires. However, I would like to point out that in the article, "Seven Tire Killers", the type of air used in inflation was not one of the seven listed. And, it was not something listed in the "Other Deadly Tire Issues". It was only mentioned as part of a problem with tire repairs.

Larry,

I used to run into this problem often, doing Root Cause Analyses. The focus was always on finding and correcting the most important of the problems and contributing factors.

So Larry, what is your take on the root cause of that tire failure? Was it the improper repair that caused the failure? If you are solely focused on and only consider the literal wording of the article, was the improper repair the true root cause?.................if it was the true root cause, the tire should have blown out as soon as it was aired up.

If I were doing a Root Cause Analysis, I wouldn't stop with the author's literal wording.
I would want to know why so many cords showed extensive rusting. I would want to know, how did the moisture get into the tire, did the tire have a long slow leak history (water doesn't leak in if air is leaking out), how long since the rope plug repair was done and how much air had been made up and from where and how was it dried, if at all? What knowledge level existed in the tech? In the Owner? What was the Tire Service air system design and actual implementation? What was the post-repair operating/corrective/preventative/predictive maintenance history of the tire and can we discover the reason why so many belt cords show extensive rust? Was it even feasible for one botched plug repair to affect such a large area of cordage?

The repair may well have been a large contributing factor, but I bet that there were several other strong contributing factors. One has to find as many of the contributing factors as possible and then take them away, one at time and ask, "Would this blowout have occurred if I take this factor away?" Without going though those kinds of steps for this tire failure, I wouldn't feel comfortable stating that the improper rope plug repair was the root cause.

I would bet dollars to donuts, though, that the root cause was rusted metal cords. In order to have rust, one must have metal, moisture and oxygen. In order to have that amount of rusted cords, the inner tire membrane had to be breeched and NOW we get to the improperly sealed rope plug repair. But we also, probably, get to a bunch of human errors. People that could or should have known better than to put moisture laden air into a heavy duty, high mileage tire. Looking at basics, we usually can't avoid metal cord layers, we can choose high quality design and construction tires, we can exclude moisture and it is possible to exclude oxygen by using an inert gas. By excluding moisture and oxygen, it is also possible that the blowout could have been prevented forever. The inner membranes are very thin and I think that many get breeched from road hazards, casting flaws that age, etc. But it's also possible that external wicking along the rope plug may have occurred, if the pressure containment had remained inboard of the metal cords. Without accurate Root cause Analysis, we don't learn.

The takeaway is that just because somebody labels "improper repair as one of the top seven tire killers", it does not make it so, especially when the description talks as much about moisture intrusion and resealing of inner liner breeches as it does about examples of "improper repairs".

But the description is one of the reasons that I thought this article was especially pertinent to Craneman's concern, in that he said that he had never seen moisture intrusion and rusting of metal cords, in his experience, and could find no examples or pictures of such on the internet.

It is easy to become tied up in just accepting what someone has said and not learning valuable lessons when the lessons are right there in front of us. So we repeat history instead of learning and improving.

HTH,
Neal

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #51 – March 11, 2018, 01:13:39 pm

Just to show my observations I will cut open one of the tires I changed out on my crane 2 weeks ago. Date coded 2012 well worn and has climbed many concrete barriers. Will post pictures even if the cords are rusted up.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #52 – March 11, 2018, 01:25:27 pm

Neal,
I agree that the cause was rusted metal cords. However, there is a considerable amount of literature that suggest the cause of rusted metal cords is moisture contamination from the manufacturing process. I cannot find the same level of literature that suggest that rusted metal cords are a result of airing up tires.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #53 – March 11, 2018, 01:26:42 pm

This came with the Coach, not needed anymore, but I'm keeping it. Look where it was made!

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #54 – March 11, 2018, 02:07:04 pm

Big difference probably internally and externally is the apparent designed in release of agents that in use on a truck driven continuously or a crane driven daily are to keep the tire carcass flexible and probably keep the water vapor from transpiring through the tires carcass.

Our lack of heavy use probably negates the built in protections that 99% of the users would generate.

On third thought if you are not going to put in dry anything maybe a non steel belted tire might be an option for you.

Coach came with steel Michelin's and a dry air source on board probably for a reason

My x Foretravel line mechanic was the go to guy at a local high volume trailer dealer and he quit as he was dong PDI's on trailers and the dealer was not replacing the used trailer tires over five years old which he thought was unsafe.

No dry air. Lots of heat. Overloading. Under inflation in storage.

The power tank guys website mentions not reinflating any tire locally that was down to 80% of rated pressure. Take to a pro place that has a cage to inflate the tire in and contain any debris if it fails.

No wonder the trailer tires fail alot on the side of the road.

So it seems because of our limited use that the dry anything becomes more important.

I doubt if the tire makers are going to spend the money and testing to change their over the road truck tires design for rv use

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #55 – March 11, 2018, 02:35:28 pm

Haven't smelled that much burning rubber since I was at the drags. Tire history: manufactured in 2012 the week is illegible, Dynatrax made in china. I have always mounted my own tires since 1978 and use Dawn and water to lubricate to break down and install. Probably 1/8 cup gets in the tire as I use a sprayer not a brush or rag. I posted with my experience and am not infallible. I ground down until I could see the cords and knowing the grinder would remove any rust if it was present, used a razor knife to cut a section away. This tire has no sign of corrosion, I will admit it is the only one I have broke down and inspected the steel, and it is the last, everything including me has burnt rubber shards stuck on it.

When I quoted Kim I stated he had opened up Pandora's Box, got that right.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #56 – March 11, 2018, 02:39:16 pm

I'm going to wait until we leave to the north in June to air the tires with the on-board hose. She's got 70psi now, they look fine. That little stool will be handy!

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #57 – March 11, 2018, 02:46:43 pm

Quote from: craneman – March 11, 2018, 02:35:28 pm

When I quoted Kim I stated he had opened up Pandora's Box, got that right.

Kinda like the "hooking your generator to your house" discussion.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #58 – March 11, 2018, 02:51:21 pm

Yep!

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #59 – March 11, 2018, 03:00:56 pm

My large volume local so cal FMCA tire dealer(Parkhouse Tire) and I both use and used MYLER's tire mounting lubricant. Not the Michelin tiger stuff.

No water induced into the tire from the mounting lube.

Black thin grease type stuff.

Are all theses steps necessary? Correct mounting lube. Dry something. Exact tire pressures?

It's only your safety. Wanna bet Foretravels Michelin tire supplier or it's guys used non water based mounting lube?

Safer to be paranoid

I wonder if Neal could help me figure out how much of a large nitrogen tank it would consume to deflate 6 tires and refill them? 2,600 psi.

$45 dollars to refill the tank. Might be worth it

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #60 – March 11, 2018, 03:18:23 pm

It was mentioned early on in this thread that some use the onboard air compressor to air up their tires because the air goes through the air dryer. If when using the onboard air compressor the air is coming directly from the air dryer that would be the case. But if the air is coming from the air tanks, that may not be the case. On some model Foretravels, there is a 12 volt air compressor. And on some models that air compressor can fill the main tanks. And, on some models that 12 volt air compressor does not have an air dryer. So the tanks may not have completey moisture free air.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #61 – March 11, 2018, 08:05:38 pm

Hi Guys,

Too bad Corrosion X is so slick - otherwise it might be a good rust inhibitor to be used during tire fabrication.

Jim

2002 U320

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #62 – March 12, 2018, 09:46:12 am

Observations,could the steel in the tires have moisture in it when assembled? If I had nitrogen in my tires a way for ME to put
nitrogen in would be a must have.
Seems the older coaches have problems with the 12 volt air compressor and moisture,why could'nt we fit a second dryer the
same as the main one just for this air compressor,has anyone tried that?Surely it would last longer then the dissacant in the
small dryer.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #63 – March 12, 2018, 10:17:19 am

Quote from: ltg – March 11, 2018, 03:18:23 pm

It was mentioned early on in this thread that some use the on-board air compressor to air up their tires because the air goes through the air dryer. If when using the on-board air compressor the air is coming directly from the air dryer that would be the case. But if the air is coming from the air tanks, that may not be the case. On some model Foretravels, there is a 12 volt air compressor. And on some models that air compressor can fill the main tanks. And, on some models that 12 volt air compressor does not have an air dryer. So the tanks may not have completely moisture free air.

I'm new and learning. Stepping out into the deep water of this discussion with some newbie trepidation. My personal experience is that the 12v compressor isn't made for airing the tires. My chassis guy confirms this as do some forum members. (12v compressor only good to maintain coach level). We always add air to the tires when needed from the air chuck installed OEM. Have always assumed that is dry air from engine air compressor. No moisture period.

Some coaches yes, some not. Clarification anyone? Piping diagram/routing? Coach model numbers too if you have them.

Bottom line?.... Where does the air for the OEM FT air chuck come from?

Much appreciated.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #64 – March 12, 2018, 10:27:01 am

Quote from: Mike J – March 12, 2018, 10:17:19 am

Where does the air for the OEM FT air chuck come from?

On our GV, it comes directly off the "wet" tank, which is the tank at the rear of the coach. On your 2002 model, may be different.

You should have a air system diagram in your owner's manuals somewhere.

Found a 2003 air diagram in our Forum library (THANKS to Steve and Michelle). Looks like air hose comes off the rear brake tank.

http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=item;in=3302#viewitem

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #65 – March 12, 2018, 10:50:15 am

On the 96 u270 it comes from the engine air compressor,dry air.You have to fill your tire with the engine running to get the air
pressure so unless I'm missing something which tank it comes from does'nt matter,it's air that has gone thru the dryer.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #66 – March 12, 2018, 10:57:46 am

Quote from: John44 – March 12, 2018, 10:50:15 am

On the 96 u270 it comes from the engine air compressor,dry air.You have to fill your tire with the engine running to get the air
pressure so unless I'm missing something which tank it comes from does'nt matter,it's air that has gone thru the dryer.

On Mikes coach, air can go to tanks from small air compressor which may or may not have an air dryer. He can use the 12 v compressor to fill tanks via a switch and solenoid valve but probably only to about 90 psi.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #67 – March 12, 2018, 11:01:00 am

Quote from: Caflashbob – March 11, 2018, 03:00:56 pm

I wonder if Neal could help me figure out how much of a large nitrogen tank it would consume to deflate 6 tires and refill them? 2,600 psi.

$45 dollars to refill the tank. Might be worth it

Been using this product in my Toyo tires, never had air loss over time and no added weight to balance steer tires. Takes about 20 oz. per our size tires.
Alternative to nitrogen, said to be more effective with many more benefits.

Tire Life® Video « Fuller Bros.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #68 – March 12, 2018, 11:28:37 am

Quote from: John44 – March 12, 2018, 10:50:15 am

On the 96 u270 it comes from the engine air compressor,dry air.You have to fill your tire with the engine running to get the air
pressure so unless I'm missing something which tank it comes from does'nt matter,it's air that has gone thru the dryer.

Does the manual that came with your coach suggest that you drain the moisture from you tanks on a daily or weekly schedule?

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #69 – March 12, 2018, 12:08:58 pm

I always assumed my air hose was interconnected to the dryer, but now everyone has me wondering. Maybe PO Brett knows, except I think he and Dianne took the sailboat and sailed away off the forum!

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #70 – March 12, 2018, 12:14:40 pm

Quote from: mike leary – March 12, 2018, 12:08:58 pm

I always assumed my air hose was interconnected to the dryer, but now everyone has me wondering. Maybe PO Brett knows, except I think he and Dianne took the sailboat and sailed away off the forum!

Compressor loads up, pushes air through air dryer to wet tank. Air hose attached to wet tank.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #71 – March 12, 2018, 01:09:22 pm

So the "wet" tank is simply a term for a brake systems pressure storage tank. Whether or not it has run through a dryer.

I think bringing this info out in the forum is a necessary good thing.

The over inflation of the tires maybe should be researched and posted also?

Batteries, dry air, correct inflation for the actual loads on each tire were my main talking points with owners when I was sales manager of Foretravels Irvine, ca store in the 80's.

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #72 – March 12, 2018, 01:11:21 pm

Thanks to everyone for putting air into my tire/rubber/steel cord education. I'm learning a lot. The forum is surely where the rubber meets the road!

This is what I think we have for dry air to fill my tires. Based on what I see in the 2003 air diagram and our 2002 U270. May not specifically apply to your coach. Please correct me if in error or confirm my assumptions if you wish.

1. All air supplied by the engine compressor is dried.

2. The switch (we have one) at dash in retarder consol, opens solenoid allowing un-dried air from the 12v compressor directly into the wet tank. When preparing to depart a campground and we find our air system is depleted, FT has provided me a choice: Either idle engine long enough to build air pressure or use the 12v compressor to pressurize the tanks, (albeit very slowly) and thereby keep the neighbors happy by not running the engine. The down side of being quiet is slow pressure build time and introducing contaminated un-dried air into the wet tank.

3. The air chuck can receive un-dried air directly from the 12v compressor. It can also receive dry air from the engine compressor via the front brake tank. (The 12v compressor should not be used to air the coach tires as it does not supply enough psi and volume and doing so would/could introduce moisture into the tires).

4. If parked, engine off, and keeping coach level with the 12v compressor, the air going to airbags is undried.

5. Is the pressure required to inflate the airbags for travel/leveling below the 65 psi threshold of the tank check valves. This would mean no contaminated un-dried air from the 12v compressor can enter the brake tanks UNLESS, the dash switch in #2 above has opened the solenoid at some time allowing 12v compressor air into the wet tank and subsequently the fr/rr brake tanks.

6. My choice if all the above is correct: Leave solenoid switch at dash off. Only use the 12v compressor to keep coach level while parked. Use the engine to build tank air pressure and fill tires. Get to know my park neighbors and if possible, don't leave our campsite before they have had their cup of coffee in the morning.

Thanks, Mike J

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #73 – March 12, 2018, 01:26:30 pm

Mike was this switch allowing non dry air a model wide std install put in new or a owners mod or a specific coach only item?

My first thought was to actually find all the chassis side leaks versus run non dry air into the coach.

Knock wood my x Foretravel line mechanic found all of our coaches leaks and it has not moved from whatever level it is at for 6 years. I turn off the hwh panel after leveling

Re: Airing tires from onboard hose.

Reply #74 – March 12, 2018, 01:33:06 pm

Quote from: Doug W. – March 12, 2018, 11:01:00 am

Been using this product in my Toyo tires, never had air loss over time and no added weight to balance steer tires. Takes about 20 oz. per our size tires.
Alternative to nitrogen, said to be more effective with many more benefits.

Tire Life® Video « Fuller Bros.

Interesting product Doug, Do you have tire pressure sensors? Wondering if this stuff would mess with them.

Thanks, Mike J

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