Caterpillar Oil

Topic: Caterpillar Oil (Read 1474 times) previous topic - next topic

Caterpillar Oil

September 10, 2018, 03:24:03 pm

Everyone with a Cat 3126 (maybe other model Cat's with a HEUI pumps) can take this with a grain of sand. I have read this many times before over the last year, after our engine frailer.
This morning I was talking to the service adviser (prior he was a Cat mech. ) at Western States Caterpillar, discussing why a $5.00 oil ring broke in a otherwise perfect engine with only 115K miles.
He said, most people run the wrong oil. Not brand, that didn't seem to matter, but velocity. I told him I run the recommended 15/40 Delo, but he said they had a service bulletin out about 15 years back, stating 10/30 diesel oil.
I asked why, he said because of the HEUI pump. He told me to think of it as a hydraulic pump. So what do they use in hydraulic systems? Hydraulic fluid which is super thin (5 or 10 weight).
What he continued to tell me was, the thicker oil also build's lots of carbon behind the rings, which in turn holding them out, causing them to break against the cylinder wall.
Makes technical sense to me. Besides, I noticed our piston's did have a lot of carbon in the ring lang while I was cleaning them out.The one with the broken ring was worse. I just thought the bum cylinder caused it.
Also, when I look back, the cylinder was oblong at the top, not where the oil ring broke at the bottom. See picture of head gasket, which formed itself to the cylinder wall, it's egg sahped.
I plan to run 10/30, probably going to just run their Caterpillar oil, and take the 15/40 Delo back to Costco.
Hope this helps
Chris

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #1 – September 10, 2018, 03:56:47 pm

Chris,

I have no problem with 10-30 for most of the country/most of the time.

But, would stick with 15-40 for really hot (100 degree F) driving.

Given where you live, it makes sense that a service tech in your area would recommend a lighter viscosity oil. Not so much in Texas.

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #2 – September 10, 2018, 04:33:27 pm

Would running Seafoam in the crankcase for the last several hundred miles before an oil change be a compromise solution? Would that help to keep the carbon buildup in check without dropping down to the lower viscosity oil?

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #3 – September 10, 2018, 04:50:22 pm

Oils with low sulfated ash make breaking rings less likely. Ash deposits collect in the ring lands (ring grooves) and can cause the rings to stick. Since the cylinder has a taper to it when cold, the rings can't conform to the change in diameter and can break trying to conform to the shape and size of the cylinders. If the ring sticks toward BDC (bottom dead center) it may not be able to contract when the piston moves upward when you start it. One of the big reasons Detroit went to low ash Delo 100 in their 2 cycles. NO, I'm not recommending the Delo 100 for a CAT, just saying that ash can build up in ring lands.

Synthetic oils or more frequent oil changes will help keep the engine piston lands cleaner.

Here is a quote:

"As the engine oil enters the combustion chamber and burns, its residue forms an ash-like material. This ash-like material contributes to deposits in the crown land above the piston ring as well as to deposits in the ring grooves. These deposits can lead to rubbing wear on the cylinder liner and cause the piston rings to not operate freely."

I use a 20-50 in our MBZ diesel and change it every 3000 miles. It has almost 450,000 without anything being done to it and starts instantly (with glow) in sub-freezing temps. I overhauled many of these engines that didn't change oil often. Some didn't make it to 100K. Not recommending 20-50 in a CAT either, just an example.

Pierce

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #4 – September 10, 2018, 05:13:47 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – September 10, 2018, 03:56:47 pm

But, would stick with 15-40 for really hot (100 degree F) driving. Given where you live, it makes sense that a service tech in your area would recommend a lighter viscosity oil. Not so much in Texas.

Given I have put close to 300k on three coaches, I have NEVER changed viscosities from my tried and trued Delo 15-40, even waay up in the Northest Territories!

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #5 – September 10, 2018, 05:29:35 pm

I suspect a tech working on diesels in Idaho in the winter would know that 15-40 is "just wrong".

Or as they say in Texas "that just ain't right".

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #6 – September 10, 2018, 05:49:01 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – September 10, 2018, 05:29:35 pm

I suspect a tech working on diesels in Idaho in the winter would know that 15-40 is "just wrong". Or as they say in Texas "that just ain't right".

I should have put a caveat in there: "From November on, I have always moved south." A couple of times, I did NOT move far enough south (this is Flagstaff, AZ in late November).

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #7 – September 10, 2018, 07:26:19 pm

All great info......That is why I said "take it with a grain of sand"...The service bulletin was for temperatures -4F to 104F......Just sayin'
My friend who is helping me, is a retired heavy equipment repair guy. He said they also had better luck with Cat stuff with 10/30 (even when it still had oil in it). Their stuff is spread out from Montana to Palm Springs year round.
I would be in agreement about 10/40, if I lived in a place like Arizona in the summer, towing my race car trailer. Texas, umm it gets cold and snows there too.
I plan to change the oil every 6K miles like I did before. Recommended on the rebuilt engine is 6K, I am going to change it at 3K
Every engine (except this one) I have owned has gone a gazzillion miles, both diesel and gas, probably because I changed the oil every 3K miles max.
We'll give the 10/30 Caterpillar oil a whirl.....
lets ask David.e.atherton , because he also told me 10/30 , when I was talking to him last spring.

Chris

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #8 – September 10, 2018, 07:29:51 pm

Quote from: bdale – September 10, 2018, 04:33:27 pm

Would running Seafoam in the crankcase for the last several hundred miles before an oil change be a compromise solution? Would that help to keep the carbon buildup in check without dropping down to the lower viscosity oil?

I have heard every story there is. Some say a gallon of diesel in the crank case on high idle for 1/2 hr before changing oil. Haven't been brave enough to do that. But I can say, with the dirty oil that the broken ring was causing (even though I changed it 3 times in 3K miles) Every engine sensor went out, one by one. That was the sludge causing that.

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #9 – September 10, 2018, 07:33:41 pm

Would research and find out who makes the Cat oil and just use it at a lot less money.Worked for Holt Cat on Natural gas engines
and we used nothing but low ash 40wt. oil.Had many engines that would run for a month straight.

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #10 – September 10, 2018, 07:36:19 pm

Grace,if you do not want to try synthetic oil,consider a extra by-pass oil filter,will filter to 1 micron.

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #11 – September 10, 2018, 07:45:28 pm

Quote from: John44 – September 10, 2018, 07:33:41 pm

Would research and find out who makes the Cat oil and just use it at a lot less money.Worked for Holt Cat on Natural gas engines
and we used nothing but low ash 40wt. oil.Had many engines that would run for a month straight.

I think Delo makes it. But I do plan to ask. Thanks

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #12 – September 10, 2018, 07:53:50 pm

Quote from: John44 – September 10, 2018, 07:36:19 pm

Grace,if you do not want to try synthetic oil,consider a extra by-pass oil filter,will filter to 1 micron.

I know I'll start a fire storm, just not a big Synthetic guy.
In my race car,I just dumped out, Joe Gibbs Synthetic 10/30 racing oil. It cost me $160.00 for 8 qts.
Oil pressure was not where I wanted it. Went to Lucas regular mineral racing oil with zinc (not recommended for street)
$75.00 delivered for 10 quarts. Oil pressure is awesome.
Got turned onto it by a another alcohol racer friend. Mike actually builds the "Clear View" oil filter right here in Spokane that has gone crazy in sales.

Billet Connection dba ClearView Filtration – See Through Oil Filters,...

Your idea is good. The tech at cat said there is now a ad on filter for the Cat Heui pump

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #13 – September 10, 2018, 09:06:26 pm

The inside of the engine will look like new with synthetic . You will never gum up an oil ring .( or coke the turbo) In all of the race engines I run all are raced with synthetic. Never have had an oil related failure ,even tho the oil pressure runs lower ( makes more power ). 25 yrs of Mobile one and I pay for it.
None of the NASACAR Cup style cars use Dino oil. Oil Technology has improved significantly.
My Cat has been good enough to me that it will get Synthetic next change and be run 8K.

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #14 – September 10, 2018, 09:32:40 pm

Quote from: Protech Racing – September 10, 2018, 09:06:26 pm

My Cat has been good enough to me that it will get Synthetic next change and be run 8K.

I'm thinking about that, also. Any particular brand? Is it like switching over to Transend for the Allison, where it should be changed twice before running many miles?

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #15 – September 10, 2018, 09:51:56 pm

Rotella T6 maybe ,any 10/40 wt . Might add the zink for the lifters.

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #16 – September 10, 2018, 10:46:28 pm

I run Mobil Delvac-1 5w-40 synthetic at 20,000 mile intervals. A 10w-30 is fully interchangeble with 15/40.

I never use conventional oil. Synthetics provide so many benefits for such a small increase in cost that it just isnt worth it to roll the dice. The extraordinary cleaning action and resistance to forming deposits may have saved your rings.

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #17 – September 10, 2018, 11:33:05 pm

Gracerace quote: "I know I'll start a fire storm, just not a big Synthetic guy." Sorry, but California can't handle any more "firestorms."

I remember when I bought my Kawasaki 500. It was really fast but loaded up and then missed like crazy until it cleared out plus it left a blue trail behind it. The Honda 750s were not as fast but they just left me until I got about quarter mile but by that time, it was too late. Enter a synthetic oil. I could idle through town, jump on the freeway without a miss or any smoke. The Hondas were easy pickings after that. After a port job and dykes ring forged pistons, everything else was slow motion. Hats off to Amsoil.

I use Mobil 1 in all vehicles except for the Detroit as the budget does not allow for it. Otherwise I would.

I also use Biodiesel whenever I can but it's everywhere in the Central Valley so usually not a problem finding it. HVO biodiesel is the future of diesel and the key to not finding diesel vehicles locked out of all the world's major cities.

Is HVO the Holy Grail of the world biodiesel market? - Greenea

Pierce

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #18 – September 11, 2018, 12:24:41 am

Quote from: Protech Racing – September 10, 2018, 09:06:26 pm

The inside of the engine will look like new with synthetic . You will never gum up an oil ring .( or coke the turbo) In all of the race engines I run all are raced with synthetic. Never have had an oil related failure ,even tho the oil pressure runs lower ( makes more power ). 25 yrs of Mobile one and I pay for it.
None of the NASACAR Cup style cars use Dino oil. Oil Technology has improved significantly.
My Cat has been good enough to me that it will get Synthetic next change and be run 8K.

I get all that, but when I saw the $150.00 Joe Gibbs turn to water when I checked the oil, and 20 PSI oil pressure in my 20K race car engine , it ended my 1st experience badly. I tried.
Second, can't see dumping synthetic into a 20 year old engine. Even though mine has been freshened.Worse in a higher mileage engine.
I freaked out, when they told me my wife's new Dart wouldn't need it's 1st oil change, till 10K miles. Really, all that junk floating around in a new engine? I don't care how good and clean the assembly plant was. I did the first change at 4K. But I did use Shafers synthetic.
My new Race engine, took 25 filter clean outs (it's 115 micro) along with 5 oil changes. It was built with gloves, and I still get aluminum flakes in it.
I hear all the benefits, but I guess I am old school. besides, the Cat is an old school engine. Certainly not going to go 20K miles without a oil change, no matter what kind of oil is in it. To me, that's asking for trouble because of the HEUI pump..

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #19 – September 11, 2018, 01:35:37 am

Not trying to be political as no parties are mentioned. After reading that hvo article, a few things bug me mainly the use of the word proprietary (aka a license to steal, make it appear to be competitive at first, regulate into a requirement and then steal all you want). Whose holy Grail is this sellers or consumers? Plants need to be superscale, which means any disruption in few supply chains, the few distribution chains, or a mishap at the plant will bring nation's to there knees. Germany's war machine ground to a halt somewhat, because the ball bearing plants were bombed first. Back to the lubrication thing I kinda like synthetics in a turbo motor, and bypass filters or any other filters for that matter don't typicaly achive their published micron ratings until 2/3 lifespan ratings, because it very tough to produce any filter media to that tight of tolerances. Can a machine tool be calibrated to one micron? JMO filters every other fluid change.

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #20 – September 11, 2018, 02:58:04 am

Been using Amsoil in everything I own since the mid 70's.We got our coach from the original owners,the husband and wife had passed away 2 months from one another,got it from the kids.It had 215k miles and was pretty well taken care of.I changed the oil
and filter to Amsoil,installed the bypass filter,did not flush just changed oil.Right after that we went to Quartsite,when we got there
the oil was still clean and not even brown let alone black.I changed the oil at 22k miles took a sample and it came back good.Most
of the bad press on synthetics are myths like the one that it will go thru the seals or somehow void your warrenty.They have come
a long way since the first Amsoil or first Mobil 1.

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #21 – September 11, 2018, 03:13:33 am

Understand your post Phred but what does making a machine to a one micron tolerence have to do with a filter?When I was
researching fuel filters for example every single one that the maker called 10 micron or 20 micron or whichever micron rating you
pick had a different % rating next to it,no 2 brands were alike.The oil filters have the same ratings x amount of micron filtration
at x percentage,that sounds like the same thing you said about the 2/3 life span.The main thing I care about is it keeps the oil cleaner.

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #22 – September 11, 2018, 08:57:06 am

I would assume Brett would have gone to synth if he thought it was better/worth it. I will defer to him and continue with Delo 15/40.

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #23 – September 11, 2018, 09:30:34 am

Seafoam claims to "dissolve petroleum residues that can bind and restrict the free movement of piston compression rings" but that's when added to the fuel, not the crankcase. I've used it before in cars, boats and small engines. I can't swear that it works but is there any harm in using it occasionally as preventative maintenance in a Cat 3126, either in the crankcase or the fuel tank?

https://seafoamsales.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/HOW2_Diagram_4-Stroke-Piston-and-Rings.pdf

Re: Caterpillar Oil

Reply #24 – September 11, 2018, 10:19:05 am

Got to agree with John44. I've gone to synthetics on several high mileage cars and the sky didn't fall. Yes, lots of myths. Sort of like some of our Foretravel engines.

Got to hope John H does not read this or we will have a million Amsoil ads here. Just kidding John.

No, it's great stuff. So good that you usually put a few miles on a new engine with conventional oil and then change over as the synthetic seems to stop all wear and the rings need to seat. I've seen high mileage synthetic cylinder walls with the crosshatching still visible.

Pierce

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