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Topic: What am I looking at (Read 1563 times) previous topic - next topic

What am I looking at

Started the Amsolar install today by mounting 5 panels. During the planning for mounting the Victron charger this caught my attention and I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking at. Can someone please educate me and can the charger be mounted in close proximity?
Greg

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #1 –
It is a small air compressor. What year and model coach?  That size compressor was generally used prior to 2002.

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #2 –
2001 U270
Seems like a lot of wasted space for a small compressor. Maybe I can make use of the space with the Victron charger.

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #3 –
That compressor supplies pressurized air to maintain coach level when you are parked.  If you have a slide it provides air for inflating and deflating the bladder.

Best place for an inverter/charger is close to the batteries but generally not in the same space.

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #4 –
Unless you have a sealed inverter/charger like specific outback units normal inverters cannot be in a space with the batteries.

Except for sealed units normal inverters are not non spark made or certified.  Boom.

From the late 2018 Victron manual

"Never use the product at sites where gas or dust explosions could occur."

Does not explain that the unit can spark

Magnum manuals warning


WARNING: The MS Series inverter/charger is not ignition-protected. Do not install this inverter in any area that contains extremely flammable liquids like gasoline or propane.
Close to the battery bank – The inverter should be located as close to the batteries as possible. Long DC wires tend to lose efficiency and reduce the overall performance of an inverter. However, the unit should not be installed in the same compartment as the batteries or mounted where it will be exposed to gases produced by the batteries. These gases are corrosive and will damage the inverter; also, if these gases are not ventilated and allowed to collect, they could ignite and cause an explosion.

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #5 –
Yes, in adjacent/close proximity to the batteries, not in the same compartment.

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #6 –
Thanks Gentlemen
AMSolar recommended I use my existing ProSine inverter and supplied me with a Victron 150/85 MPPT charge controller and battery monitor. The adventure begins

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #7 –
Your Prosine from 2001 has a limited life expectancy at this age.  Sooner or later you will have to replace it.

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #8 –
Prosine is not fixable as far as I remember.  No parts

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Ghallid –
Thanks Gentlemen
AMSolar recommended I use my existing ProSine inverter...
Since AM Solar is a authorized reseller/installer of Victron and Magnum inverter/chargers (two highly regarded brands), I find it odd that they would recommend sticking with your old unit.  Unless, of course, you are on a very tight budget.  Whatever the reason, I believe every Forum member who has been down this road would advise you to upgrade to a modern pure sine inverter with a smart, programmable battery charger.  You will not be sorry, and it will be money well spent.

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #10 –
Not sure why AmSolar did not recommend, however budget is not a factor and I have no objection to replacing the Prosine (except more to learn). I assume I would no longer need the Victron charger but exchange it for the charger/inverter.

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #11 –
Without knowing the specifics of your installation, it is hard to say what is best.  Although I am sure the Victron charger is a quality piece of hardware, it would also be redundant alongside a modern inverter/charger.  Lots of factors to consider when adding solar to a coach, and at the same time upgrading the OEM equipment.  AM Solar is well qualified to help you make any decisions about how to best outfit your coach, where to mount equipment, and what other upgrades would best suit your needs.

Ask them about trading in the Victron charger.

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #12 –
When my old Prosine quit I took it to a service shop where they told me it wasn't repairable and was basically a throw-away.

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #13 –
Quote from: Ghallid –
I have no objection to replacing the Prosine (except more to learn).
I would not worry about having more to learn.  Any equipment installed at AM Solar will be properly programmed before you drive away.  When we had our installation done, they asked us to stay overnight in their parking lot (behind the building) so we could "use" the new system and make sure it was all working to our satisfaction.  The programs they entered into our equipment have functioned perfectly for 4 years.  We have never changed a thing!  The books you get with your new equipment are very comprehensive, in case you DO need to change something.  AM Solar is good about answering their phone, in case you ever need tech help or have a question.

Here is a thread about our "vacation" at AM Solar.  They DID tell you about the 30% solar tax credit, right?

PV System, Installation, at AM Solar

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #14 –
Chuck
They did inform me about the tax credit.
Unfortunately I do have a lot to learn sense I'm tackling the install myself ;) . This morning I asked about replacing the Prosine inverter and waiting for their reply. I must say, they have been very helpful at this point.
Greg

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #15 –
Greg,

Doing it yourself - you are a braver man than I, and I salute you!  ^.^d

We have a number of Forum members who have installed fresh electrical and solar systems by themselves.  These range from very basic, to very sophisticated and complicated.  They LOVE to talk about their installs, and can be EXTREMELY knowledgeable about the many different aspects.  If you have ANY questions as you go along with your project, you can always try asking here.  Start a separate (new) thread with each question.  This helps keep the responses more on topic.  I assure you many varied opinions/options will result.  Up to you to sift the wheat from the chaff.

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #17 –
If you are considering upgrading your inverter the two mentioned units will work well.

The Victron is 2,400 watts continuous ar 77 degrees and the Magnum 2812 is 3,000 watts.

50 amp pass through versus 60 amp pass through.

Victron is certified to international standards while the Magnum is UL listed.

Magnum with its optional auto gen start box can auto start the gen based on temps.

It's auto start box includes a 60' temp probe wire or it can be made to use some of the temp sensors in the heat and air existing system. 

The Magnums auto gen start is capable of being triggered by the latest Dometic Climate Control Control with the ten button panel on it

You probably would need new control boards in the roof airs to go along with the CCC panel to do this.

The updated units auto,switch between heat and cold modes and auto control some fan speeds mode.

Magnum is made in the USA and phone help is available and unlike your current Prosine unit parts and service are readily available.

Magnum is about the same amount more expensive as it's increased output. 

The temp controlled auto gen start can make your coach basically a fully automatic temp controlled residence.

I am seeing limited service for the Victron here in the USA. 

Maybe am solar can provide service info for the future?

I have seen the Magnums apart and they use stainless fasteners inside and their boards are sealed.

No info on the Victron on their web info about that.

If you want to install an inverter where fumes can be present a sealed outback inverter is available.

More of a residential type off grid unit although.

Would highly recommend a blue sea auto battery  bank combiner instead of the isolator.

The combiner install is easier on Foretravels as my guru mentioned the starter relay in our coach is where the isolator was installed which allows the combiners start sense wire to be connected easier.

The auto combiner disconnects the combined batteries if connected when it senses the engines starter is engaged.

Otherwise the combined batteries can cover up weak engine start batteries potentially leaving you stranded.

New tech is available and increases reliability and safety.

Foretravel up to 2017 IH 45 still uses welding cable to  connect its batteries.

My guru buddy uses marine tinned fire retardant UL 1427 cabling.  It's pvc coating does not drip or run off if burned.

It forms a hard crust and stays on the wire.

Burning std cabling generates  harmful fumes.  No harmful with the marine cabling.



Re: What am I looking at

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Caflashbob –

I am seeing limited service for the Victron here in the USA. 


Maybe it is because we ( the ones that have the units have not had any issues to warrant a call)? Not sure how you qualify this statement. You dont own one or anything Victron.. As much as you are able to quote the Magnum.. Might be nice to compare apples to apples by reading the product info on the components of Victron and doing a side by side comparison and not use innuendo to talk it down.

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #19 –
Well, Once again CaFlashBob is just not correct here, using misinformation to support his well established bias.

Read and understand the user manuals and specifications for both if you want to know the facts.
Inverter Replacement

The Magnum MS2812 is rated at 2800 VA.  120V AC +/- 5%  60 Hz +/- 0.1%. 
  It costs about $1984 plus $183 for the basic control panel.  To mount it on a wall with the DC connections down you need an MMP250-30D panel for $580 more.  You can mount it horizontally without the panel. About $0.76 per VA for the MS2912 and control panel because CaFlashBob thinks it is significant.
 
  Its peak power output appears to be 3900 watts
  It charges at a maximum of 125 amps using 18 amps AC. 
  Its inverter uses 30 watts of power to be on with no load.
  Its inverter efficiency peaks at 90%
  Its charger efficiency is 85% with a power factor of 0.95
  It has a three year warranty.

The Victron Multiplus 3000VA is rated at 3000 VA.  120V AC +/- 0.2%  60 Hz +/- 0.01%. 
  It costs about $1430 plus $130 for a basic control panel. it is smaller and lighter then the Magnum and can be mounted on a wall with the DC terminals down out of the box.  $0.52 per VA if that makes any sense.
 
  Its peak power output is 6000 watts
  It charges at a maximum rate of 120 amp.
  Its inverter uses 20 watts of power to be on with no load.
  Its inverter efficiency peaks at 93%
  Its charger efficiency is > 85% based on a power factor of 1.
  It has a five year warranty.

VA is the controlling specification for transformers and power delivery equipment including inverters. The inverter manufacturers can only try to estimate how many watts you'll be able to deliver as a convenience but not as an absolute number because they do not know what you will connect to them.

The actual amount of power (watts) that devices use depends on their power factor for the device which is a measure of how efficiently they use sine wave power coming to them. The watts available from an inverter depend on what you connect to them.  An inverter with a higher VA rating can deliver more watts to the same appliance then one with a lower VA rating. That is a fact.

Converting VA to Watts

Neither the Magnum or the Victron inverter/chargers mentioned  will perform to their maximum performance if they are not wired with properly sized cables.  It may well be a safety issue with either to not wire them as specified.

Pass through power will never exceed the incoming AC power to your inverter.  The Victron will pass through 50 amps and add up to an additional 14 amps from the inverter.  The Magnum MS2812 specs say it will pass through 60 amps.  Without significant changes to your circuit breakers and more importantly to the AC wiring to and from the inverter neither will do any more than the 20 amps that your Prosine is wired for now in the 2001 coach in question.

As best I can tell from the Magnum website there are about 25 RV service centers in 17 states.
Victron's website has 61 dealers who can service their products in 20 states.

Either one of these systems and others from companies like Sterling and Xantrex will all do what you want them to do.  All have different specifications, performance ratings, costs and warranties.  Do your own homework and decide for yourself. Learn all you can and understand it as best you can.  When you do you can make more informed decisions for yourself.  Sometimes the loud and outrageous rants are hard to ignore but consider the source and their obvious (sometimes absurd and unfounded) biases.