Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Topic: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal? (Read 2371 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #50 – June 04, 2019, 05:06:41 pm

Something somehow put those dings in the first picture,maybe just install all new oil and watch closely.

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #51 – June 04, 2019, 05:44:05 pm

On the first photo, I probably wiped my gloved finger on the race to feel for any irregularity. There are none, other than what you see on the photo. I probably had some dirt on the glove. At first glance the races look OK, but there is some microscopic grooving occurring.

It's amazing how the iPhone's advanced camera an pick up things my eye cannot see.

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #52 – June 04, 2019, 06:10:20 pm

Hummph! Here's a photo of the NEW race. When photographed with the same iPhone XS Max, it shows microscopic grooves. Guess the old races are OK, aye?

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #53 – June 04, 2019, 07:26:13 pm

Quote from: Tim – June 04, 2019, 06:10:20 pm

Hummph! Here's a photo of the NEW race. When photographed with the same iPhone XS Max, it shows microscopic grooves. Guess the old races are OK, aye?

The "old" races are fine, metal from the previous bearing has been rolled into the surface. The microscopic grooves are the surface finish left from the grinding process, possibly from a final super-finishing.

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #54 – June 05, 2019, 02:13:04 am

Good chance of the outerbearimg,inner race spinning on the spindle. contaminating the lot.
A few prick punch hits around should snug it up .

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #55 – June 05, 2019, 09:38:18 am

Quote from: Tim – June 04, 2019, 05:44:05 pm

On the first photo, I probably wiped my gloved finger on the race to feel for any irregularity. There are none, other than what you see on the photo. I probably had some dirt on the glove. At first glance the races look OK, but there is some microscopic grooving occurring.

It's amazing how the iPhone's advanced camera an pick up things my eye cannot see.

Camera's do see the world in a manner similar to but still different than our eyes.

If you want to obsess over surface finish, use your fingernail to judge the quality of the surface in question and compare what you feel to these: https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/06558019

A true surface finish measurement uses a device that runs something akin to a phonograph cartridge and needle in a measures stroke across the surface in question and returns a numerical value.

I wasn't joking when I suggested Simple Green and hot water for cleaning. If you want to get rid of all the metal particles you need to remove the oils first. Very hot water will cause the surface to flash dry. Then a quick spray with WD-40 will prevent rust from forming until you can re-assemble you hub.

FWIW We used to be part of the manufacturing of anti-lock brake system valves and fuel injectors. Everything was cleaned with hot water. The final test was a measured sample of parts soaked in a light solvent, then the solvent was filtered for debris.

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #56 – June 05, 2019, 10:10:01 am

Reminds me of the way we would clean our M-16's,with hot water for inspection.

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #57 – June 05, 2019, 01:50:03 pm

Just completed an 1100 mile trip to a son in the hospital and when home found the Pax side streaked with oil. (Takes Goof Off to remove it.) The drive, both ways, was full of rain and wind and worry. This topic got my attention and is full of info that I never would have considered. Thanks to you all. I may have a blown seal.... And I now consider a fix to be beyond me and perhaps beyond my local diesel shop. However, I will be better prepared to discuss issues and component replacement and procedure.

(Never cleaned my M16 with water. Most of the water available to me you could not see through.)

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #58 – June 05, 2019, 05:17:08 pm

Found a great video on using a punch to ensure the race doesn't spin on the spindle (called "peening"): semi truck wheel seals bearings races tips and tricks - YouTube

I am waiting on:

- 2 5/8 socket
- 2 1/4 socket
- Dial indicator

Then I will punch the spindle, reassemble and run it for a while and observe the oil color and metal on the magnet.

By the way, there was lots of fine metal fragments on the left steer wheel side magnet of the oil bath. The oil looked fine...not dark. This assembly has over 14,000miles on it and is still running well.

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #59 – June 05, 2019, 05:24:14 pm

Not sure why it would tunr , but some do . The Brits used tube spacers between the races to stop it.

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #60 – June 05, 2019, 07:54:37 pm

Quote from: Tim – June 05, 2019, 05:17:08 pm

Found a great video on using a punch to ensure the race doesn't spin on the spindle: semi truck wheel seals bearings races tips and tricks - YouTube

I am waiting on:

- 2 5/8 socket
- 2 1/4 socket
- Dial indicator

Then I will punch the spindle, reassemble and run it for a while and observe the oil color and metal on the magnet.

By the way, there was lots of fine metal fragments on the left steer wheel side magnet of the oil bath. The oil looked fine...not dark. This assembly has over 14,000miles on it and is still running well.

Have you slid the inner races onto the spindle to check for fit?

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #61 – June 06, 2019, 05:42:02 am

Thanks for all your replies. Two things:

1. I will check the race-spindle clearance today.

2. For an enlightening diagram of "peening" the spindle, see: How to deal with a loose bearing race - Grainews

Some mechanics use Loctite with peening the spindle.

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #62 – June 06, 2019, 05:44:06 am

Lewis,check the easy parts first,may be the gasket or the red plug could be old and getting brittle,or the pinhole in the plug could
be plugged up.Try some of the hub oil that comes in the white and red quart bottle may help with the leak.

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #63 – June 06, 2019, 10:30:50 am

Quote from: Tim – June 06, 2019, 05:42:02 am

Thanks for all your replies. Two things:

1. I will check the race-spindle clearance today.

2. For an enlightening diagram of "peening" the spindle, see: How to deal with a loose bearing race - Grainews

Some mechanics use Loctite with peening the spindle.

I don't want to tell you the things I've done to keep machinery working.

But. If you insist:

LOCTITE 641

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #64 – June 06, 2019, 08:20:57 pm

Thanks for Loctite recommendation. Below is a photo of my spindle bearing race, showing that it was spinning. I hypothesize that very fine metal particles, or burning was making the oil bath brown.

I just punched the spindle in eight places(four inner and four outer race), cleaned the spindle with isopropyl alcohol, coated the spindle bearing surface with Loctite, and reinstalled the wheel assembly.

Time will tell if this did the trick. That said, I should probably look for new right spindle, just in case.

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #65 – June 07, 2019, 06:34:16 pm

Quote from: Tim – June 06, 2019, 08:20:57 pm

Thanks for Loctite recommendation. Below is a photo of my spindle bearing race, showing that it was spinning. I hypothesize that very fine metal particles, or burning was making the oil bath brown.

I just punched the spindle in eight places(four inner and four outer race), cleaned the spindle with isopropyl alcohol, coated the spindle bearing surface with Loctite, and reinstalled the wheel assembly.

Time will tell if this did the trick. That said, I should probably look for new right spindle, just in case.

I've done just as you described. I drove my 1950 Chrysler Windsor from 1976 until I sold her in 2012.

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #66 – June 11, 2019, 12:20:14 pm

Had to remove the hub, AGAIN!!!

Due to two unenlightened actions, the hub needed to be removed and reassembled with new parts, including a new seal:

1. I am ashamed to admit I installed the bearings from a different kit (Kit 413, Kit 406). This caused tolerance and binding issues because kits have slightly dimensions, so they don't call it a kit for nothing..
2. I used Permatex non-permanent threadlock on the inside bearing sleeve. This also caused binding and I could not adjust the end-play. It was ZERO. When removing the hub, this caused the need for percussive persuasion from a sledge hammer and a 3 ft pry bar to remove the hub assembly. I recommend NOT using a thread or bearing sleeve retaining compound because it:

A. Glues the bearing sleeve and no further adjustment can be done. E.g. .001 to .005 inch tolerance
B. Makes it VERY difficult to remove the hub.

Hitting the spindle with a punch is MUCH better because the bearing sleeve can still slide a little IMHO.

FYI: Here are the tools I ordered to complete the job:

OTC (1920) Locknut Socket - 6 point, 2-1/4" Opening Size $19.97

Sunex 10619 2-5/8-Inch 6-Point Wheel Bearing Locknut $25.79

Adapter - Sunex 2302 - 1/2" Female x 3/4" Male $7

Dial Indicator - Clockwise Tools DIBR-0105 Electronic Digital Indicator Gage Gauge and Magnetic Base 0-1 Inch/25.4 mm $47

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #67 – June 11, 2019, 12:32:04 pm

They dont call it "Loctite" for nothing. I would only use Loctite on the races for a permanent, last ditch effort. The pin pricks should suffice . FWIW The inner race seldom moves, probably due to much more area and more load .

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #68 – June 11, 2019, 02:16:08 pm

A small bearing preload takes the last play out of the steering system. Mine has a tiny play in the steering wheel with .001 and.003 endplay that was not present with a slight preload.

No I cannot tell you how much small is.

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #69 – June 12, 2019, 09:15:37 am

You guys are starting to scare me. These are tapered wheel bearings. Something that's been in use since at least 1909. Granted the advent of using high pressure gear lube is a great improvement, but it wasn't so bad putting a dab of grease in the palm of your hand and scraping your palm with the bearing until grease sprouted from the bearing rollers. Drop the inner bearing in the hub, tap in the grease seal. Slide the hub onto the spindle and push it all the way back. Grease the outer bearing the same way and slide ti onto the spindle. Install the hardened flat washer with key ans spin on the nut. Wipe your hands clean. Spin the tire while tightening the nut until all play is removed and you're pretty certain the grease has been squeezed from between the bearing rollers and the races. Back up the nut until yo find the first place to insert a cotter key. Lesson to insert cotter key follows later.

Seriously guys, for drilling spindles with tapered roller bearings I tighten the nut until a specified amount of torque is required to turn the spindle. For my Honda motorcycles, the tapered roller bearing in the steering stem, I use a spring scale on the handle bar end and look for 2 ounces new, 1 ounce used.

For the undersized Chevrolet P-30 chassis on which far too many motorhomes were built. Spin the tire and slowly torque until the specified amount is reached and lock the nut in place with the cotter pin.

You can glue the inner race in place because it doesn't move until it's time to be replaced. Then, again, Mr. Murphy whispers in my ear "Are you certain you want to make that a permanent assembly? If you do sooner or later you'll be the one to take that permanence apart."

Art Joly

P.S. The Ford "T" model? The Timken outer tapered roller bearing is threaded onto the spindle.

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #70 – June 12, 2019, 12:38:04 pm

Thanks for rolling (Pun) up your sleeve (Pun) and sharing your advice. The problem occurred when the outside bearing sleeve started to spin inside the spindle, making some metal which was caught in the magnet and causing the oil bath to darken. The other issue is that I am an electrical engineer; smart enough to be dangerous but dumb enough to mix bearing sets. So I had to re-install the bearing set twice.

My lesson-learned is that small dimples should be put on the outside spindle bearing sleeve location to retain it from spinning. These dimples should do three things:

- Keep bearing sleeve from spinning
- Allow for proper torquing and break-in of the bearing assembly.
If the bearing sleeve is glued in place, how could end-play be adjusted?
- Easier rework in the future: No sledge hammers, pry-bars and removing old glue.

News Flash: I drove the rig this morning. The wheel stayed on and no unusual sounds were heard. Yay!

Hopefully this will be that last bearing job this 22 year old Foretravel and 61 year old engineer. Thanks for all your advice.

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #71 – June 12, 2019, 12:56:10 pm

Quote from: Tim – June 12, 2019, 12:38:04 pm

Hopefully this will be that last bearing job this 22 year old Foretravel and 61 year old engineer. Thanks for all your advice.

My partner is an electronics engineer. Our household is divided as though it were a union shop. Much safer this way.

If you wanted to learn about wheel bearings, couldn't you have picked something smaller with which to start?

Congratulations on sticking it out to the end and a successful conclusion.

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #72 – June 12, 2019, 04:52:54 pm

Quote from: Tim – June 12, 2019, 12:38:04 pm

Thanks for rolling (Pun) up your sleeve (Pun) and sharing your advice. The problem occurred when the outside bearing sleeve started to spin inside the spindle, making some metal which was caught in the magnet and causing the oil bath to darken. The other issue is that I am an electrical engineer; smart enough to be dangerous but dumb enough to mix bearing sets. So I had to re-install the bearing set twice.

My lesson-learned is that small dimples should be put on the outside spindle bearing sleeve location to retain it from spinning. These dimples should do three things:

- Keep bearing sleeve from spinning
- Allow for proper torquing and break-in of the bearing assembly.
If the bearing sleeve is glued in place, how could end-play be adjusted?
- Easier rework in the future: No sledge hammers, pry-bars and removing old glue.

News Flash: I drove the rig this morning. The wheel stayed on and no unusual sounds were heard. Yay!

Hopefully this will be that last bearing job this 22 year old Foretravel and 61 year old engineer. Thanks for all your advice.

Loctite comes out like an oil and gives plenty of time to set end-play before setting up. Just information to add to your knowledge base.

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #73 – June 13, 2019, 11:56:35 am

The problem is that I got spooked by the 450 degrees F required to soften and disassemble a sleeve bonded with Permatex 64000.

See https://441py33rout1ptjxn2lupv31-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/tech_docs/tds/64000.pdf

A few questions:

1. Would 450 F damage, warp or change metallic properties of the spindle and surrounding brake parts?

2. Would it have been better to use Loctite or Permatex on the sleeve vs dimpling the spindle with a center punch?

3. Would it have been better to replace the spindle?

In any case, I was unable to measure end play because the glue and/or dimples locked the bearing sleeve to the spindle. No matter how hard I tugged or pushed on the hub, the dial gauge read ZERO. The big spindle lock nut was torqued properly and backed off 1/4 turn per the Timken RP-618 procedure.

Re: Metal on Front Wheel Oiling Bearing Magnet. Normal?

Reply #74 – June 13, 2019, 12:31:18 pm

Loctite only if the dimples don't suffice.
You can set endplay by mounting the tire, giving it a smack with a 10# er and then turning the nut .
Barring that run it a few miles over the nearest RR crossing and recheck .

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