Injector pump chirping noise etc

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Injector pump chirping noise etc

June 05, 2019, 11:26:18 am

We are half way on our trip to Yukon etc and now when I shut engine down a while later there is a big noise coming from area of inj pump etc. It is a chirping noise with some clicking. Silverleaf code says. Fuel control valve. So, anyone know on the ISC 350 is this inside or external from inj pump. We are going to stop in Smithers at a Cummins truck place to see what they have to say. I do not want to be half way up the Cassiar hwy to Whitehorse and break down. It is 500miles long in middle of nowhere. Any ideas as the Cummins manual is
Not much good with info and no info specifically online about this that I can find
JohnH
Engine runs normally while driving, no feel of any problem

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #1 – June 05, 2019, 12:23:46 pm

John,
MAZ had his Injection Control Valve replaced, I wonder if that is the part you are referring to as the "Fuel control valve". It is a fairly expensive part at around 1.2 coach bucks. You don't say what the number of the code your Silverleaf is giving, but the numbers that I had been getting on the VMSpc are "PID: S233 and SPN: 1077" which seems to translate to Cummins fault code 329. Now, my codes were always accompanied by the stop engine light and a chirping of the annunciator, even if it was so brief that I barely had time to hear the chirp or glance down and catch a glimpse of the stop engine light. Following is a quote from some of the Cummins troubleshooting guide:
CAPS Fuel System Trouble shooting Info

Quote

Fault Code: 329
PID: S233
SPN: 1077
FMI: 12
LAMP: None
SRT: Engine ECM has detected an overpumping malfunction in the Cummins accumulator pump system (CAPS) pump.Fault Code 329 can result due to one or more of the following:

Other fault codes that are caused by bad grounds.
High fuel inlet restrictions and/or air in the fuel can set the fault code.
Fuel that does not meet Fuels for Cummins Engines, criteria, specifically density and viscosity, has also been know to set fault code 329.
High fuel inlet temperatures can also set fault code 329. Fuel temperatures at the inlet to the gear pump should not exceed 60°C [140°F] on ISC
Quote
This fault code could also be caused by a fuel leak in the sealing plate between the injection control valve and the distributor. The injection control valve module should be replaced if a fuel leak in the sealing plate has been identified.
Fault Code 329 can be caused by broken internal injection control valve components and/or by poor lubricity fuel which scuffed the internal components of the injection control valve.

Result: Low power; possible engine shutdown.
Don
Quote from: John Haygarth – June 05, 2019, 11:26:18 am
We are half way on our trip to Yukon etc and now when I shut engine down a while later there is a big noise coming from area of inj pump etc. It is a chirping noise with some clicking. Silverleaf code says. Fuel control valve. So, anyone know on the ISC 350 is this inside or external from inj pump. We are going to stop in Smithers at a Cummins truck place to see what they have to say. I do not want to be half way up the Cassiar hwy to Whitehorse and break down. It is 500miles long in middle of nowhere. Any ideas as the Cummins manual is
Not much good with info and no info specifically online about this that I can find
JohnH
Engine runs normally while driving, no feel of any problem

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #2 – June 05, 2019, 03:21:23 pm

Don. The silver leaf code is 18. 7. Fuel control valve. It has not happened for a second so far today so much much less than yesterday. We are only 5 miles from a Cummins shop now so will see what happens.
Thanks and will report back
JohnH

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #3 – June 05, 2019, 03:37:25 pm

By the way I have not been getting any stop signs or engine malfunctioning and it's been like no problem at all for performance. Just check engine ones
JohnH

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #4 – June 05, 2019, 07:42:42 pm

Don, here is a strange thing, the mechanic hooked up to the Cummins diagnostics and it only shows 1alert since our episode in PHX 3yrs ago. The silver leaf shows many different items. The alert that came up was repeated 37 times in the last 70 hrs. There is obviously something wrong but he is now doing a 16 point diagnosis so we are going to be here maybe tomorrow too. This trip may be aborted so as not to get stuck in the bush. We will see.
JohnH

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #5 – June 05, 2019, 11:05:09 pm

Well the day has ended and 9 of the 16 Cummins diagnostics has been done and a couple of electrical faults have been found but we do not think they are going to be the answer but will be taking a drive first thing before going to work on the rest. Great shop and nice to be able to answer the question while tech is working.
The plot thickens
JohnH

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #6 – June 06, 2019, 12:06:18 am

John,

If the alert came up 37 times in the last 70 hours, it may be an electrical issue with a connection, ground, etc. Remember when you had the wiring fault outside of Q in 2014 if I remember correctly? Betting it's similar and not the Cummins.

Wish I had bet on Andy Ruiz.

Pierce

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #7 – June 06, 2019, 09:47:12 am

We kind of think that too, but this chirping noise after engine is shut down is a head shaker. I can stop the noise by turning ign on without actually starting the engine then turn key off. That stops it for about 4 hours then it starts up briefly making noise again. The sound feels like it may e coming from the compressor, anyone know something on that possibly
JohnH

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #8 – June 06, 2019, 11:27:54 am

John,

This is sure strange as turning on the key makes it stop for a period of time.
This won't have anything to do with the key part as this is all mechanical as far as the chirping.

If your air dryer is OEM there is 1 air line that is 1/4" that goes from the dryer to the governor. A second 1/4" line goes from the governor to the wet tank. This second line can also have an air line that "Ts" into it at the wet tank from the isolation valve if your coach was so equipped. Where these lines tie into the wet tank there is a check valve. This valve can start leaking back which will cause a chirping sound that you will hear through the compressor as the noise is transmitted back through the air piping. I know the key shouldn't have anything to do with stopping this but is just food for thought.

Mike

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #9 – June 06, 2019, 02:51:46 pm

Mike, no isolation valve on mine but there is a return check valve on the main line at air dryer. I replaced that one when I did a rebuild of dryer in 2016.
Thanks for keeping me posted
JohnH

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #10 – June 06, 2019, 02:57:53 pm

How about the heating element in the air dryer? Wonder if the chirp could be a pressure release and the heating element causing that to pause somehow? The heating element starts to heat when the key is turned on.

P

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #11 – June 06, 2019, 03:24:12 pm

The heating is on the purge valve and the key is turned on and off so fast U do not think any heating could happen
JohnH

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #12 – June 06, 2019, 04:23:23 pm

John, there is apparently a ground that ties together the ECM and several of its sensors. even the bit in the quote I posted above obliquely refers to it;

Quote

Code 329 can result due to one or more of the following:
Other fault codes that are caused by bad grounds.

I have also seen it referred to in branching troubleshooting trees for the fuel pressure sensor, intake manifold temperature, and fuel temperature, as well as the ECM. I haven't been able to locate it, though I have cleaned up a few of the grounds near the lift pump. This might be worth checking into, and incidentally, if you find out where the main ECM grounding point is, I would love to hear about it!
Don

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #13 – June 06, 2019, 10:23:45 pm

Update after 15 hours labour. Today the tech took apart the ecm wiring as it was a mess and he could not carry on with the job so he fixed a few bad lines and bad connections. I was with him all the time and he is very meticulous. We decided to remove the Banks connections to put it back to Cummins specs as easier to problem solve. This all took all morning then we did a test drive for 25 miles and no issues except we did notice no charging of battery. All else was good with no codes thrown. The connection for the sense wire had corroded away and had just broken so he redid that relay and wiring with weather Tite fittings.
Bottom line is we will be leaving the Banks off for a few days to see if that was causing issue. Excellent shop and letting me know what was going on was really good. I got a little shock at the bill but life goes on. We are now changing our route for a few days to test this all out and should something go wrong we are close to a place for working on it. Glad we found the alternator problem before hitting the road.
Thanks to those that pm we and online tips
JohnH

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #14 – June 06, 2019, 11:05:13 pm

John, I have trucked in that area for many years ... Any shop in Smithers should be able to help you out... All the mechanics in that area that have worked on trucks should be able to help you out.
I would get a couple of opinions, but generally speaking , I would not believe any one in the area would rip you off... These guys have repaired more logging trucks , hiway trucks than most people have seen ...
Good Luck with your repairs,
Safe Travels
Dave

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #15 – June 07, 2019, 11:37:22 am

Agree that they did not rip me off as I was alongside the tech the whole time. Great people for sure and they are all concerned with the problem. I have the techs cell# and manager wants us to drop back in after us now going to P Rupert as a test drive before thinking of heading north. Highly recommend the shop. Scenery is stunning but had a lot of rain which is needed to stop fires
JohnH

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #16 – June 08, 2019, 12:32:48 am

Drove 250 miles today with no issues as far as errors but without the Banks my fuel use was a lit more. Reckon it cost me 2.5 to 3 mpg and hill climbing was slower . Eg manifold temps were down maybe 400 degs but that is because not so much advance on timing. All in very happy with work done by tech and no chatter at night. Maybe whole issue was in the bad wiring harness done at ftravel. Will drive back the 250 miles and if again no issues will hook up the Banks to see if it changes. If problem re ocures then will send back to Banks to have their computer checked. All in all I was glad to have a clear day of beeping.
Arrived here at P Rupert and met the neighbors and they gave us a nice piece of Halibut and then a bit later came back with 2 filets of salmon, so good weekend of food coming up
JohnH

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #17 – June 08, 2019, 12:57:22 pm

Well no night sqeeling from coach last night so so far so good. I did check silverleaf diagnostics and low and behold there were many noted pid 256 checks but they did not register as beeping and check lights. Codes mentioned are also written about on RV site and others found that they relate to harness supporting???
And once secured they vanish ??
Really beginning to think that the silverleaf is too sensitive and many codes are just spoofy and are not relative.
I feel that the problem most probably has been fixed/found but will keep monitoring it
JohnH

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #18 – June 08, 2019, 01:31:56 pm

One thing I have noticed with the VMSpc is that if you turn the key on and don't finish waiting for the 'pre-flight' to finish of the warning light panel, VMSpc can generate multiple instances of a variety of spurious codes. On the other hand, there have been times when the VMSpc did not pick up all of my stroboscopic 'stop engine' lights. It seems that the VMSpc interface does not update continuously, but rather periodically polls the ECM and if the code is not currently actively while polling, it doesn't register. I believe this polling characteristic can be observed by the latency in the readings of many of the simple gages. As an example, the gear attained vs. the gear chosen, you can feel the transmission shifting moments before the gear attained reflects that fact. By and large however, the readings are close enough to real time to be extremely useful and even crucial, especially as regards the retarder temps.
Don

Quote from: John Haygarth – June 08, 2019, 12:57:22 pm

...Really beginning to think that the silverleaf is too sensitive and many codes are just spoofy and are not relative.
I feel that the problem most probably has been fixed/found but will keep monitoring it
JohnH

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #19 – June 08, 2019, 04:37:39 pm

Quote

I believe this polling characteristic can be observed by the latency in the readings of many of the simple gages. As an example, the gear attained vs. the gear chosen, you can feel the transmission shifting moments before the gear attained reflects that fact.

I have always had some VMSpc latency (2-5 secs?) in gear attained, but the other simple gauges responded quickly. Lately, with version 4.0.7, it seems that all my gauges have a 5-10 second lag. Same pc. I have disabled Windows Defender and have no security software installed. I plan on calling Silverleaf to see if they can help solve it.

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #20 – June 10, 2019, 11:07:48 am

Update. Came back to Smithers to have diesel shop do a Cummins data check due to those weird notes on s,leaf
Diagnostics. During last night's sleep we woke to hear a very faint chatter that sounded electrical so out of bed and lift it up to find the Banks computer green on light going off and on when ignition switch is off , so there must be a problem with the power feed wire for it as there should be no power with ign off. I pulled the fuse and that stopped it. Now I am thinking that the Banks has been the problem all the time. The Banks doing this after shutting engine down may have been doing something to injector pump etc causing the noises. I will find a new source of ignition 12 voltage for the computer when we get home and see if that sorts it all out. I may send it to Banks and have them check box out.
I think I have found the problem and in the process had all the wires from ECU fixed up and bundled right for safety and a few others replaced by this shop. Expensive but at least will never have to be at them again. Plus did not need any injector pump work done, but do see a couple of pipes that will need changing out like George Hadfield just did soon.
JohnH

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #21 – June 10, 2019, 04:41:26 pm

VMSpc reports what data is put out on the data bus. The older JIBs have slower chips in them and the time it takes to cycle through all of the possible channels takes longer. The newer JIBs are faster. Your older transmission and engine computers may be reporting things at a slower rate as well.

There is nothing in VMSpc that I am aware of would cause the engine or transmission to report anything extra no matter how you start your engine. It is simply reading what data is reported and displaying it.

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #22 – June 10, 2019, 07:57:53 pm

Roger are you replying to Dons post?
The Cummins shop plugged into data port and not one fault code came up since we left them last week. He stated that as far as he and Cummins are concerned my engine is running great and clean. In fact he smelt the exhaust and told me after. The other comment was that me having the Banks in for over 10 years has obviously not been a problem and hoped I can get it up and running again as the engine obviously loves it. we saw reference to injectors 16 and others on silverleaf that I do not have so he wonders about the program. Now I do too, but I like having the guages and graph while driving.
JohnH

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #23 – June 10, 2019, 08:30:56 pm

John,
Ya to You and Don and Bob. Silverleaf and VMSpc does not create anything or cause it to happen. It simply reports what it sees on the data bus. There are lots of messages coming across the data bus from the engine and the transmission. Lots of them are information, some are low level warnings, some higher, some faults, some critical faults. If VMSpc sees them they get recorded, they are not made up.

When I was having alternator issues I got hundreds of codes, most were for one of the injectors reporting low potential. Nothing that made the engine run poorly but they were guidance that lead me to discover an alternator problem. None of these were critical, they didn't make the check engine light come on but they helped me find a problem. I don't think there is a way to filter these. If there was I wouldn't have seen them. I am sure the Cummins techs saw no critical faults, doesn't mean there weren't other lower level notes.

Check with Silverleaf if you want more. If your JIB is older I think you can send it in and they will upgrade the internal hardware for a reasonable cost. It might help, it might not make any difference.

Re: Injector pump chirping noise etc

Reply #24 – June 10, 2019, 09:25:38 pm

Was also looking at the computer he used and it actually said. No faults recorded. His thoroughness is unbelievable on all aspects. I was very Impressed at the small issues he cleaned up as he said if I do not do this sometime down the road it will bite you. I most probably paid for a few hours that most would not but I am glad I did as by doing that he found a badly corroded wire that was the sense wire. The relay that it was wired too was bad so he replaced that with a sealed one and on every wire repair he did it was covered with Dielectric grease then shrink wrapped. All the wires then we're bundled neatly together and wrapped in hockey stick tape. He also told me to report back to him about result of Banks re install .
I have never seen this detail before except when looking at some of Dons work.
JohnH

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