Lots of White Smoke

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Lots of White Smoke

June 06, 2019, 12:47:57 am

The engine has been emitting a small bit of white smoke since we've owned it. I thought it was due to a bad turbo because the engine was rebuilt in 2017 and the invoice from the repair mentioned a damaged turbo. We were planning on replacing the turbo when the time came. A couple of weeks ago we had to have our exhaust manifold gaskets replaced because one blew out sometime during our trip (the same one is leaking again). The mechanic reiterated what the invoice said and the the turbo needed replaced. We got to WV, I replaced the turbo and the smoke was still there. On the test drive to check the turbo the engine ran great but while we were heading down the mountain on our way back the engine blew a huge cloud of white smoke out the exhaust. It only happened once during descent and it was during deceleration. After that it didn't seem to smoke at all the rest of the test drive and it was still running great.

When I started it again two days ago the engine began emitting large amounts of white smoke. It smokes at idle and it smokes worse when it's revved. The engine seems to idle smoothly but It smokes the same after the engine is warmed up as well. The exhaust does not really smell sweet nor does it smell strongly of diesel and it's not really acrid. It just smells like old diesel engine exhaust to me. There doesn't appear to be any water in the oil or oil in the antifreeze. I don't believe that it is water vapor and am sure it is smoke. The engine oil level does not appear to be dropping over time. I haven't found a glass fuel bowl anywhere to see if there is air in fuel.

I have called a couple of Cummins shops and they said it sounds like a fuel system problem. They named a few things it could be but none of them were interested in looking at it. There are no other shops in the area and I'm not sure if it's a good idea to try and drive the coach a long distance with the way it is smoking.

I'm in uncharted waters here. We have the operation and maintenance manual but it's not too specific. Ordering a service manual is first on the list. I'm not a diesel mechanic but would like to try and diagnose the problem. If anyone has any suggestions I would be interested to hear them.

Thank you

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #1 – June 06, 2019, 05:55:51 am

My 8.3 smokes when cold on startup.

Causes from the web:

Faulty or damaged injectors
Incorrect injection timing (could be a worn timing gear or damaged crankshaft keyway).

Low cylinder compression
(eg caused by leaking or broken valves, piston ring sticking, cylinder and/or ring wear, or cylinder glaze)...

Raw diesel coming through the exhaust completely intact and unburned.

Water entering combustion spaces.
Faulty head gaskets and cracked cylinder heads or blocks are a common cause of water entry, and are often to blame. Unfortunately, expensive mechanical repair is the only proper solution here.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #2 – June 06, 2019, 06:31:12 am

It could be the oil seal in the new turbo is faulty. Even though you can't see any oil loss on the dip stick it don't take much oil to make a lot of smoke. This can look like white smoke even though it is oil.

With the 2nd exhaust manifold gasket failure you need to check the manifold for warpage and correct that before installing another gasket. If the manifold is warped have it surfaced and you will be better off than a new manifold in most cases due to heat warpage of the new manifold. The old one has went through untold number of heat cycles so it has most likely done all the warping it is going to do.

Mike

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #3 – June 06, 2019, 10:11:02 am

If it's a bad turbo, you will 'eat oil for lunch' and smoke white/grey all the time; more when it's colder outside when climbing. We blew one, replaced it and it STILL SMOKED! Pulled the whole top end apart, had everything checked out and found nothing. Pulled the turbo and found the seals were shot on the new one! The REP replaced it n/c, but I ate the labor. We could only figure the 'new' one had sat on the shelf too long and the seals had dried out.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #4 – June 06, 2019, 10:23:33 am

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – June 06, 2019, 12:47:57 am

I'm in uncharted waters here. We have the operation and maintenance manual but it's not too specific. Ordering a service manual is first on the list. I'm not a diesel mechanic but would like to try and diagnose the problem. If anyone has any suggestions I would be interested to hear them.

Thank you

Let's start with a basic assumption here because white smoke is usually unburned fuel. If it was anti-freeze from a bad head gasket you can smell the antifreeze and if you rub your hands in the exhaust you'll feel the anti freeze. BTDT.

Does your maintenance manual outline the ignition timing procedure? If you have a mechanical engine, you time the injector pump using timing pin(s). One for top dead center on the engine and one for the pump.

Do the simple things first.

Art Joly

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #5 – June 06, 2019, 10:58:51 am

I think the key here may be the engine rebuild in 2017. White smoke is normal during startup, especially in cold weather. White smoke during normal driving is not. The white smoke from coolant at first looks the same as startup smoke but quickly dissipates and since your coolant level is not going down, you can rule that out. Does your engine start quickly? Did they check or replace the fuel supply hose? Air in the system can cause intermittent amounts of diesel injected and can result in white smoke. A lift pump that was not replaced at the overhaul could be failing causing low pressure and insufficient fuel in the Bosch P pump. Also could be the cause of the white smoke. This is one of the reasons I installed a pressure gauge on the secondary filter discharge/outlet as it checks on filter condition, lift pump, air leaks, etc.

White smoke from other than a fuel supply problem usually occurs after combustion and since you have a four stroke diesel, there is a possibility that an oil ring might have been installed upside down or damaged and some oil is going out on the exhaust stroke. Another possible reason could be worn/damaged exhaust guides/seals. But the first think I would look at is the turbo seal after you are sure you don't have air in the fuel system. Even a small amount will produce a white smoke with a possible blueish cast to it. It usually has an odor to it and if you have someone follow you, they can do a smell test.

Injectors with a bad pattern usually show up as poor starting. Once the engine is warm, a torn injector pattern will probably only show up as increased smog emissions.

Injector timing could be off. Easy to check.

What kind of overhaul did the shop do? New set of pistons/liners. What kind of head work was done? Cummins shop?

Phone calls to Cummins and their answer was probably correct with the fuel system diagnosis. I would start there and go to engine mechanicals after that. Any diesel issues are probably due 80% to the fuel system. Since your engine is using no oil or coolant, I would lean to Cummins answers first.

Pierce

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #6 – June 06, 2019, 11:06:52 am

Faulty injector.
Run a balance test. Let it skip long enough for the smoke to diminish.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #7 – June 06, 2019, 11:47:27 am

I have removed the intake and exhaust pipes on the turbo and there is no oil or residue. There is white smoke coming from the leaking manifold gasket so I don't think it's the turbo. We ran the generator under load to see it would smoke as well maybe indicating water in the fuel. The generator wasn't smoking but dies after about 10 minutes for some reason. I'm not sure how long smoke would linger vs steam but it doesn't seem to hang around in the air like smoke from a fire.

The engine starts and idles fine. I have ordered both the shop service manual and the related troubleshooting manual to help me visualize what everyone is talking about.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #8 – June 06, 2019, 12:04:44 pm

Unless you need a new fuel filter, your generator is dying because it has air in the feed line. Our U300 is the same year and the supply line from the tank had millions of microscopic cracks that were letting air in. Tough to see without a magnifying glass. Super easy to check by substituting a three foot hose from a gallon container of diesel and then running the generator with at least one roof air on. If it keeps running, you have a bad supply hose.

Easy to change. Buy a 25 foot roll of good hose as it's much cheaper that way. Don't even have to pull the generator out. Use a long rod like a straight brake line to feed it though the bulkhead hole into the fuel tank compartment. Don't connect it to the old hose as Foretravel didn't install the OEM hose in a straight line so may get hung up if you do it that way. And don't view the Foretravel on YouTube as its wrong.

Your engine feed line may have the same problem and is allowing air into the system.

Pierce

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #9 – June 06, 2019, 03:09:13 pm

Quote from: mike leary – June 06, 2019, 10:11:02 am

If it's a bad turbo, you will 'eat oil for lunch' and smoke white/grey all the time; more when it's colder outside when climbing. We blew one, replaced it and it STILL SMOKED! Pulled the whole top end apart, had everything checked out and found nothing. Pulled the turbo and found the seals were shot on the new one! The REP replaced it n/c, but I ate the labor. We could only figure the 'new' one had sat on the shelf too long and the seals had dried out.

Did it smoke on first start up when the engine and components were still cold? I would think the turbo would have to be hot in order to turn the oil into smoke but I dont know. I'm going to be pulling the manifold to have it resurfaced and might send the turbo back to have them check it over.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #10 – June 06, 2019, 03:20:28 pm

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – June 06, 2019, 03:09:13 pm

I would think the turbo would have to be hot in order to turn the oil into smoke but I dont know. I'm going to be pulling the manifold to have it resurfaced and might send the turbo back to have them check it over.

Mine smoked right away. Would not hurt to have someone take a look at the turbo, though.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #11 – June 06, 2019, 04:27:23 pm

If it's not losing oil , it is not the turbo . If it is not losing water, it is not gaskets.
The most likely smoke source is the fuel .

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #12 – June 06, 2019, 06:58:35 pm

Quote from: Protech Racing – June 06, 2019, 04:27:23 pm

If it's not losing oil , it is not the turbo .

X2...... and when I speak of 'losing oil', I MEAN you have to check it (and add) a couple of times a day!

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #13 – June 06, 2019, 07:24:56 pm

Quote from: mike leary – June 06, 2019, 03:20:28 pm

Mine smoked right away. Would not hurt to have someone take a look at the turbo, though.

The tech at the turbo shop said if there was no oil on the turbine wheels then the turbo was not leaking oil. It's dry on both the intake and exhaust sides.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #14 – June 06, 2019, 07:29:27 pm

Thanks for all the good info guys. I'm not sure how to do some of the things suggested so there's lots to research. I haven't had any luck finding anyone that is interested in working on it but The shop manuals will be here Tuesday.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #15 – June 06, 2019, 07:37:48 pm

Where are you?
Are there any bar rooms nearby, or a fire department? I've had good luck mining bars for both info and labor.
The fire department may provide a diesel mechanic that wants to moonlight according to Pierce Stewart.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #16 – June 06, 2019, 07:51:24 pm

Quote from: Travelin' Man – June 06, 2019, 07:37:48 pm

Where are you?
Are there any bar rooms nearby, or a fire department? I've had good luck mining bars for both info and labor.
The fire department may provide a diesel mechanic that wants to moonlight according to Pierce Stewart.

X2....I found a mechanic from the local City Dept. of Public Works that did great (cheap) work for me!

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #17 – June 06, 2019, 08:01:37 pm

I know ONE THING: with a smoking turbo you can drive from Arizona to Washington State with only pollution; no other damage. I don't think I'd drive to NAC unless I really knew what was what.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #18 – June 06, 2019, 09:48:52 pm

Pierce's suggestion is an easy way to rule out air in fuel issues. Two gallon plastic fuel can, few feet of hose. Change out fuel filters first if you haven't already done so. No diesel tolerates less than near perfect fuel delivery.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #19 – June 06, 2019, 10:27:56 pm

Quote from: Protech Racing – June 06, 2019, 11:06:52 am

Faulty injector.
Run a balance test. Let it skip long enough for the smoke to diminish.

I was thinking about pulling the injectors and sending them somewhere to be tested. It would definitely help with the process of elimination anyway and it's something I feel like I might be able to figure out how to do. Does having the injectors tested sound like a good idea?

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #20 – June 06, 2019, 10:44:26 pm

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – June 06, 2019, 09:48:52 pm

Pierce's suggestion is an easy way to rule out air in fuel issues. Two gallon plastic fuel can, few feet of hose. Change out fuel filters first if you haven't already done so. No diesel tolerates less than near perfect fuel delivery.

I had read a few threads about changing fuel lines and was curious if this was something that I needed to do this is something I will try and attempt. There's so many things to do my head is beginning to spin. I really don't know if we're capable of doing it all.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #21 – June 06, 2019, 10:49:11 pm

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – June 06, 2019, 10:44:26 pm

I had read a few threads about changing fuel lines and was curious if this was something that I needed to do this is something I will try and attempt. There's so many things to do my head is beginning to spin. I really don't know if we're capable of doing it all.

You are not alone: take the easy ones first: avoid the 'dark side', know when to seek a pro. Easy does it! Just in case you need a break, I'd suggest this:

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #22 – June 06, 2019, 11:55:50 pm

Googlate balance test. It would be far better to determine and pick the faulty injector before sending them for testing .imho
Simply loosen or unplug each injector and wait for the rpm to stabilize. Read the rpm drop for each jug. My guess is that one will slow the smoke and the rpm drop will be less then the rest . That would be the easiest and cheapest fix as we could hope for.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #23 – June 07, 2019, 08:34:43 am

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – June 06, 2019, 10:44:26 pm

I had read a few threads about changing fuel lines and was curious if this was something that I needed to do this is something I will try and attempt.

A quick check on the condition of the fuel lines, as they usually first crack where they have been expanded to fit over the metal ends:

Go to your primary fuel filter. Look carefully at the fuel lines. You are checking for cracks, usually running on the long axis of the hose. If you see deep cracks, yes, replacement is a good idea. MAY be your problem, but, even if not, it will rear its ugly head at some point soon.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #24 – June 07, 2019, 09:57:12 am

I have to go with Mike on this one. Its easy for a diesel novice to chase the problem through a maze of possibilities, each failure accompanied by more and more frustration (and credit card debt).

You can loosen the nut on each injector but normally, the beginnings of a fuel restriction or air in the system fool you with a smooth idle. You could clamp off the feed hose at the tank and then put a MityVac on the engine end and watch for a drop indicating a tired hose. You can also proceed to the discharge of the primary, test again and so forth. Your generator problem is going to be hose related like ours for the exact same year coach. I'm just waiting to have to replace our main line. I've sent some coax and HDMI cables to the back so I know the tricks in getting it done the easiest way and the shortest amount of time. With a vinyl wrap cover on the cables, I was able to gently pull from about the rear wheel location and have the cable slide easily from the front center console. Try that with an uncovered fuel hose.

Our generator fuel hose was just a little damp in spots and had no apparent cracks. Only when I bent it and took a magnifying glass to the bend, did I see the millions of little cracks. A couple of years before, it would surge with the ACs going. It did that more and more even after I changed the filter. Then I installed the pressure gauge and then I could see good pressure when it started but the pressure would drop, the dreaded surge would start and then it would die.

So, installing a pressure gauge on the discharge side of the secondary filter is pretty easy and cheap. It will show the idle pressure but using Krush's idea of the GoPro, you can see the pressure when you are wide open throttle on a grade or freeway on ramp. I've even had filters try and fool me and after shutting down, the junk would settle to the bottom, running well the next day for a few miles and then returning with a vengeance. The Cummins lift pumps also cause their share of problems so a pressure gauge with a camera monitor would show that too. Yes, you can just put a sender and send the signal up to the dash through a wire in the extra wire bundle but that will take a lot more time to arrange.

A very, very inexpensive Chinese action camera (GoPro clone) works really well and the 4K versions are better than all but the latest real GoPro cameras. About 2 weeks for delivery. I think mine cost about $40 delivered but had more accessories than most. Even a remote control for the wrist. And to answer the next question, every real/authentic GoPro ever made was made in China so...

chinese action camera | eBay

So, it's like gambling on a fight or football game. You figure the percentages and then start where the odds are the best. Eliminate the highest first and you have a basis to go to the next possible remedy if the first didn't work.

Pierce

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