Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #100 – June 19, 2019, 04:59:09 pm Quote from: mike leary – June 19, 2019, 04:45:07 pmAs I've said before: "Do you have MASS oil consumption?" That's the sign (other than the smoke) the seals are shot in the turbo.We don't have any oil consumption that I'm aware of. Quote Selected
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #101 – June 19, 2019, 05:28:14 pm The balance test , if you let the pressure bleed done in each line long enough to make a change in the smoke will find the broken injector . It may take a minute or more for the smoke to change output. Barring that, Please pull the injectors for a bench test. Bench test before swapping as to isolate the problem as opposed to throwing parts at it and hope it sticks. Quote Selected 1 Likes
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #102 – June 19, 2019, 05:40:50 pm Quote from: Protech Racing – June 19, 2019, 05:28:14 pm The balance test , if you let the pressure bleed done in each line long enough to make a change in the smoke will find the broken injector . It may take a minute or more for the smoke to change output. Barring that, Please pull the injectors for a bench test. Bench test before swapping as to isolate the problem as opposed to throwing parts at it and hope it sticks. The mechanic and I pulled all of the injectors and he is supposed to be testing them at his shop. It's been a week and we haven't heard from him and we're dead in the water until he shows back up. Quote Selected
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #103 – June 19, 2019, 05:55:01 pm Quote from: The Soft Boulders – June 19, 2019, 05:40:50 pmThe mechanic and I pulled all of the injectors and he is supposed to be testing them at his shop. It's been a week and we haven't heard from him and we're dead in the water until he shows back up. Is the mechanic's name "Bubba" ? Quote Selected
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #104 – June 19, 2019, 06:07:28 pm Did he number the injectors? Quote Selected
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #105 – June 19, 2019, 07:50:38 pm Many years ago, I built an injector tester and rebuilt my own injectors. OK, I used a small square cab tilt hand pump out of a fire truck. The injector tester can be built from a variety of hydraulic jacks, etc. See photos below. I was looking for a nice fan pattern and about 2000 psi. Naturally diesel is used in the pump along with a liquid filled gauge so when the injector buzzes, the gauge will remain pretty steady and give an accurate reading.Once the injectors have been removed and tested for pressure and pattern, it's easy to take them apart. With a big vise, use a breaker bar in the vise with a deep socket the size of the injector base. Then another breaker bar also with a deep socket to unscrew the top from the bottom. Some injectors require a large crescent wrench as they only have two flat sides. OK, once the top has been unscrewed, you will find a spring and washer inside along with the injector in two parts, the body and the pintle. I would slide the pintle out and after cleaning everything, put the injector into a vise between wood, plastic or a soft metal. Then the seating area on the pintle gets a little valve grinding compound and the pintle is slid back into place with great care as not to let the compound touch the sides of the injector body. I would then chuck up a drill to the small tip on the top and spin the pintle rapidly lifting slightly once a second or so. After inspecting the pintle and injector mating surfaces, if there were any flaws left, I would repeat the process.Once everything had been cleaned, I would assemble and then pressure test looking for about 2000 psi and a nice fan spray pattern. If the pressure was low, just using a thicker washer would allow the pressure to be brought up so all were close to each other.This takes about 15 minutes for each injector once you get the hang of it. Link to injector examples, diagrams: Types of Nozzle in IC Engine : Pintle Nozzle, Single Hole Nozzle, Multihole...Pierce Quote Selected 2 Likes
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #106 – June 20, 2019, 09:05:30 am Quote from: John44 – June 19, 2019, 06:07:28 pmDid he number the injectors?He did number them as we pulled them out. Quote Selected
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #107 – June 20, 2019, 09:15:07 am Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – June 19, 2019, 07:50:38 pmMany years ago, I built an injector tester and rebuilt my own injectors. OK, I used a small square cab tilt hand pump out of a fire truck. The injector tester can be built from a variety of hydraulic jacks, etc. See photos below. I was looking for a nice fan pattern and about 2000 psi. Naturally diesel is used in the pump along with a liquid filled gauge so when the injector buzzes, the gauge will remain pretty steady and give an accurate reading.Once the injectors have been removed and tested for pressure and pattern, it's easy to take them apart. With a big vise, use a breaker bar in the vise with a deep socket the size of the injector base. Then another breaker bar also with a deep socket to unscrew the top from the bottom. Some injectors require a large crescent wrench as they only have two flat sides. OK, once the top has been unscrewed, you will find a spring and washer inside along with the injector in two parts, the body and the pintle. I would slide the pintle out and after cleaning everything, put the injector into a vise between wood, plastic or a soft metal. Then the seating area on the pintle gets a little valve grinding compound and the pintle is slid back into place with great care as not to let the compound touch the sides of the injector body. I would then chuck up a drill to the small tip on the top and spin the pintle rapidly lifting slightly once a second or so. After inspecting the pintle and injector mating surfaces, if there were any flaws left, I would repeat the process.Once everything had been cleaned, I would assemble and then pressure test looking for about 2000 psi and a nice fan spray pattern. If the pressure was low, just using a thicker washer would allow the pressure to be brought up so all were close to each other.This takes about 15 minutes for each injector once you get the hang of it. Link to injector examples, diagrams: Types of Nozzle in IC Engine : Pintle Nozzle, Single Hole Nozzle, Multihole...PierceThat's a really cool setup! If we were in a better situation I might try something like it. I'm beginning to think that the mechanic is going to flake on us. Quote Selected 1 Likes
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #108 – June 20, 2019, 11:05:27 am Since I already had the pump and scrounged the rest of the parts except for the gauge, it didn't cost more than $25 at the most. With a cold engine and a torn or straight stream for an injector pattern, it makes for hard starting and lots of smoke. Once the engine is warm, there is much less of a temperature rise needed so a bad pattern from an injector or two will not be noticeable while driving. The emissions will go up though. I still have the tester but it's in a garage over 500 miles away so can't show photos but it's a lot cruder than the nice ones in the photo. All injectors are not the same and some have a tip that can be damaged if water gets in the fuel and is instantly vaporized as it's sprayed in.If your diesel takes a couple seconds or more (sometimes a lot more) of cranking to start and when the engine does start, one or two cylinders take a few seconds to come on line, it's usually because of a bad spray pattern in those cylinders. With a Detroit 6V-92TA, this is common because of the lower compression ratio (17 to 1) on the turbo engines. That's one of the reasons I like to run injector cleaner in the fuel.With electronic engines, it's a different game and as I recall, there are very few facilities in the U.S. that can rebuild electronic injectors. This may be changing as most all diesels today are electronic. I noticed an ebay ad for a tester for electronic engines but it was $54,000.As you can see from this ebay page, it's easy to spend more for a set of injectors for some Cummins engines that an overhaul kit. The high prices are not exclusive to Cummins either. New technology comes with a price. cummins diesel 8.3 injectors | eBay . On the other hand, mechanical injectors are usually pretty cheap.So, your mechanic probably sent the injectors to a shop specializing in injectors and that's probably responsible for the delay. I had a bad injector on an older Detroit mechanical engine and went to an injection shop in Sacramento. A rebuild unit injector (injection pump and injector in one unit) was only $50 so if you have a bad one, it's not the end of the world. Pierce Quote Selected
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #109 – June 20, 2019, 06:19:31 pm Since you've already got the injectors pulled why not run a leakdown test on each cylinder? It will absolutely pinpoint problems with any cylinder be it rings, intake or exhaust valves, general condition including compression. A kit for this is only around 50 bucks, simple to do. Requires a compressor and that you follow the procedure. I use this device on every used engine considered for purchase. It is an invaluable diagnostic tool. Quote Selected 1 Likes
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #110 – June 20, 2019, 06:43:46 pm Chuck has an excellent tip. Here is a kit for most HD diesels: 34900 Diesel Compression Tester Tool Set AltAlong with the compression tester is a differential pressure/ cylinder leakage tester. We use these on aircraft at every annual inspection. We put 80 psi into the tester. There is a restricted orifice between the two gauges. The second gauge will drop down and show the difference between cylinders and with your ear, you can tell where the leakage is by listening at the oil fill on the crankcase, the exhaust manifold and intake manifold. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/otc-5609?seid=srese1&gclid=CjwKCAjw3azoBRAXEiwA-_64OuPwjhGIWkfgjNs_gdwKGJiFz99wHzG_ftDHFHcsVcMf3ZPLsLzuIhoCmKoQAvD_BwEAfter each cylinder is tested, we write down the result. Example 80/79 is excellent, 80/75 OK or 80/40 in the case of a severe leak. So you have six sets of numbers to keep in your record book. The next time, you can see if anything has changed.Pierce Quote Selected
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #111 – June 20, 2019, 07:10:29 pm Here is a video on how to do a cylinder leakdown test. The gauge is a little different than I use but the same principal. The engine must be stopped and on top dead center on the compression stroke. 2-cycles fire each time but still have to be at TDC.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgrfT0LFMhc Quote Selected
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #112 – June 20, 2019, 07:26:28 pm I would be beside myself, after all this screwing around, why NO ONE knows WTF happened? Quote Selected
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #113 – June 20, 2019, 10:59:19 pm Thanks guys for all of the excellent information! The leak down test sounds like it would be a good thing to try but I'm not sure if it is something we'll be able to do. If the engine turns out to be bad we're going to have to come up with another plan of action. We've already spent over 15 grand this year on repairs and with the issues that the coach still has it would be irresponsible to dump any significant amount more into it. I don't really know what other choice we might have. The machinist that did the manifold said he'd give us 5 grand sight unseen. I'm not sure if we'd take that little for it but if the engine is bad and it's 20 grand to fix we'd be worse off. There is a lot to figure out and hopefully we can get the engine back up and going.It's difficult to move forward without injectors though. The mechanic has not answered my calls or returned my messages for a couple days. There's a good chance he's flaked on us and taken our injectors with him but hopefully he's just been busy and will get back with us soon. I called Cummins today to try and get a part # for the injectors but all they had was the Cummins pt # and not the Bosch one. The service guy said they didn't really care to work on it but that they would if we can't find anything else. However, they definitely will not look at it without injectors. Looks like I could be figuring out how to reinstall injectors and putting everything back together again. Quote Selected 1 Likes
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #114 – June 20, 2019, 11:38:58 pm Where are you and bus? Quote Selected
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #115 – June 21, 2019, 12:07:28 am Parsons, WV. The good news is that it's beautiful here and we're able to rent monthly. Maybe we'll just settle here in WV. As John Denver would say "Country roads, take me home to the place I belong". Quote Selected
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #116 – June 21, 2019, 05:51:43 am What oil are you using?Get a oil sample and see what the analisys is.Is the mechanic an independant or a shop,have someone else call him with a different number and see if he answers.Get the part number off the turbo and make sure it's the correct one.Is the oil level too high. Quote Selected
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #117 – June 21, 2019, 09:38:53 am To The Soft Boulders, I imagine that most of that $15,000 went into one time repairs and deferred mainanence. So regarding your recent engine troubles, while you wait for either your mechanic to return, a trip to the salvage yard for a used set of injectors or eBay, why not begin documenting the internal condition of your engine.John44 brought up a good point about your engine lubricating oil. Is it at the correct level? As long has you have the dipstick in your hands, and starting with clean hands, wipe the dipstick oil onto your palm. With your index finger does it feel like lubricating oil? Rub your palms together briskly to create some heat stuff your nose into your cupped hands and sniff deeply. Do you smell fuel oil?You already own the barring tool and you've marked top dead center for #1 and #6 cylinders. Beg borrow or buy a leak down tester and check the cylinders through the injector holes. Your ears will tell you where the leaks are be it exhaust, intake or rings.https://www.harborfreight.com/Cylinder-Leak-Down-Tester-62595.htmlEngines that run, especially diesel engines that start well must be in pretty good condition, otherwise they wouldn't run. Quote Selected 1 Likes
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #118 – June 21, 2019, 10:14:50 am White Smoke Indicates a Faulty Fuel System: Time for a Fuel Injector Service Quote Selected 2 Likes
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #119 – June 21, 2019, 10:37:33 am If I was able to get a leak down tester wouldn't I still need to find the correct adapter to fit in the hole for our specific injector? It can't be a universal piece can it? Quote Selected
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #120 – June 21, 2019, 11:19:58 am Correct It has to screw in tight. FWIW if the engine lites right off cold, the compression is fine . The leak down will not show valve seals or guides. Only combustion pressure values. Quote Selected
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #121 – June 21, 2019, 11:46:16 am Quote from: The Soft Boulders – June 21, 2019, 10:37:33 amIf I was able to get a leak down tester wouldn't I still need to find the correct adapter to fit in the hole for our specific injector? It can't be a universal piece can it? Protech racing is 100% correct. I was thinking that by the time you were done with the leak down test you'd feel better about the internal condition of your engine.And regarding what I said about testing your oil with your hands, the same thing goes for engine smoke. Holding your hands in the smoke near the exhaust pipe and rubbing you palms together then a good deep sniff will tell you much about what is coming out of your engine by the feel and odor.5.9 Mechanical injectors/ea.2004.5-2007 Dodge Ram Bosch 5.9L Cummins Diesel Common Rail Injectors. | eBayElectronic or Common Rail Fuel Injector2004.5-2007 Dodge Ram Bosch 5.9L Cummins Diesel Common Rail Injector | eBay Quote Selected
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #122 – June 21, 2019, 01:42:04 pm I can put you in touch with a quality injection/ HD truck tech , that can come to you and get you up and running . Call me and I'll shoot his #. The transit will be 500 or so . I trust him completely and he works for me when his racing overlaps mine . He has keys to my shop . Quote Selected
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #123 – June 21, 2019, 02:50:23 pm Agree with above but now his next step is to get the injectors back from the mechanic he can't get a hold of and do all the freechecks that he can. Quote Selected
Re: Lots of White Smoke Reply #124 – June 21, 2019, 02:54:44 pm Quote from: John44 – June 21, 2019, 02:50:23 pmAgree with above but now his next step is to get the injectors back from the mechanic he can't get a hold of and do all the freechecks that he can.I've got time on my hands, AND I'M IRISH (with a horrible temper when crossed) I'll be glad to call Bubba for the OP! Quote Selected
Topic: Lots of White Smoke