Lots of White Smoke

Topic: Lots of White Smoke (Read 5838 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #150 – June 26, 2019, 10:02:30 am

Read thru some of the original posts,what exactly was done on overhaul,what fuel pressure when engine running,what oil is in the engine,if you know the answers let us know,it's mystifing us too.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #151 – June 26, 2019, 10:33:01 am

Detroit 2-cycles are the only one I've heard about that could runaway. Blower or turbo seals. But, like Craneman said, you just flip the lever and there is also a solenoid on the lever that can be actuated in the cab.

The mechanical Detroits can also run backwards but only if you let the truck roll back on a hill and have a manual transmission. Not good for the air cleaner and the oil pump runs backwards too.

All diesels but especially fire trucks have to be parked upwind from a propane leak emergency.

Bad or valve guide seals that were not replaced at overhaul time can cause smoke. I had a problem with a aluminum MBZ V8 with bad valve seals. Would occasionally blow lots of smoke out the exhaust especially on trailing throttle. Only 150K too.

Pierce

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #152 – June 26, 2019, 10:38:10 am

Quote from: Old Toolmaker – June 26, 2019, 09:43:45 am

What we know.
The oil would need to go through the engine to foul the exhaust ports.
White smoke is unburned oil.
Diesel fuel is turned into a fine white fog by the fuel injector.
The engine starts and runs normally.

Now we can make an educated guess.
Raw engine oil leaking past the oil seals in the turbo follows the intake air.
The oil boils and becomes a cool vapor in the cylinder and is exhausted, unburnt.

Part of that was my reasoning for faulty exhaust valve seals and or loose valve guides. Oil would flow down the exhaust valve stems, boil in the exhaust gases and emerge as a white, unburnt, vapor.

If your turbo is leaking enough to create the white smoke, you've been a very lucky man so far. Just as you can run a diesel engine on starting ether, you can run a diesel engine on lubricating oil from a leaking turbo-supercharger. The only way to save an engine when this happens is to use a board to close off the intake air, because you have a positive feedback loop. More air. more oil, more exhaust.

It makes sense what you said about the oil following the intake air and being burned in the combustion chamber along with the fuel. The weird thing is that there is no oil or dampness of any kind on the cold air side of the turbo. The charge air piping is clean and dry as well. I feel like if that is what is happening then there should be some evidence of it in the piping. That's one reason I'm reluctant to blame the turbo. And if it's leaking out of the exhaust side I don't see how it could cause the smoke because there is no way the exhaust is hot enough on first startup to burn the oil and create smoke.

Could the oil make it's way to the engine through the intake without leaving a trail?

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #153 – June 26, 2019, 10:46:40 am

I'm not sure on the what the fuel pressure was, only that the mechanic said it was good. As for the oil I'm assuming it is Shell Rotella 15-40 which is what the manual calls for. We just had a full service at MOT in January and they didn't use synthetic that we're aware of.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #154 – June 26, 2019, 10:58:44 am

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – June 26, 2019, 10:38:10 am

It makes sense what you said about the oil following the intake air and being burned in the combustion chamber along with the fuel. The weird thing is that there is no oil or dampness of any kind on the cold air side of the turbo. The charge air piping is clean and dry as well. I feel like if that is what is happening then there should be some evidence of it in the piping. That's one reason I'm reluctant to blame the turbo. And if it's leaking out of the exhaust side I don't see how it could cause the smoke because there is no way the exhaust is hot enough on first startup to burn the oil and create smoke.

Could the oil make it's way to the engine through the intake without leaving a trail?

You would think that it would leave a film wouldn't you? As far as I'm concerned tho two simplest explanations for the oil smoke are the exhaust valves and the turbo.

Modern automobiles with their construction techniques and catalytic converts have spoiled us. Once upon a time we'd coast down a hill with the throttle closed then open the throttle at the bottom to see how big an oil smoke cloud the car would leave from bad valve guides and valve seals.

As for your idea that the engine is too cold when started, to vaporize oil in the exhaust port from the exhaust valves, the air in the cylinders is hot enough to ignite the fuel oil sprayed in by the injectors. And that fuel raises the temperature even higher.

As for how fast the exhaust gets hot,if you want to see for yourself, take the muffler off your lawnmower engine, stick you finger in the exhaust port and start the engine. Time yourself with your watch to see how long you can leave your finger there before you need to save your finger. Let us know if you get past "Oh s@@t is that hot!"

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #155 – June 26, 2019, 10:59:39 am

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – June 26, 2019, 10:38:10 am

It makes sense what you said about the oil following the intake air and being burned in the combustion chamber along with the fuel. The weird thing is that there is no oil or dampness of any kind on the cold air side of the turbo. The charge air piping is clean and dry as well. I feel like if that is what is happening then there should be some evidence of it in the piping. That's one reason I'm reluctant to blame the turbo. And if it's leaking out of the exhaust side I don't see how it could cause the smoke because there is no way the exhaust is hot enough on first startup to burn the oil and create smoke.

Could the oil make it's way to the engine through the intake without leaving a trail?

A little oil makes a lot of smoke. If the turbo seal was completely blown out, you would see a trail and the smoke would be closer to blue instead of white. Not saying it is the turbo but just what I have experienced.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #156 – June 26, 2019, 01:56:36 pm

When you get it back together start off with a new tank of good fuel,if your tank is close to full get some good diesel additive and
put in the maximun dose and see what happens.Not sure what a warrentee teardown is but if they take the turbo apart and find nothing wrong I'll be surprized if it's no charge.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #157 – June 27, 2019, 09:25:56 am

Quote from: John44 – June 26, 2019, 01:56:36 pm

When you get it back together start off with a new tank of good fuel,if your tank is close to full get some good diesel additive and
put in the maximun dose and see what happens.Not sure what a warrentee teardown is but if they take the turbo apart and find nothing wrong I'll be surprized if it's no charge.

Left camp this morning at about 2:15 and just got out of the turbo shop. They tore the turbo down and found nothing wrong with it. The seals were I good shape and there was no oil anywhere inside the turbo. They gave me a new oil return gasket and turbo gasket and didn't charge anything for the tear down. It was a long drive but at least we can rule out the turbo for certain now. Now for the drive back!

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #158 – June 27, 2019, 09:34:18 am

I went and got the injectors from the mechanic yesterday and Hannah and I got them installed that evening. Once the turbo is back on we'll be back at square one haha.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #159 – June 27, 2019, 11:04:15 am

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – June 27, 2019, 09:34:18 am

I went and got the injectors from the mechanic yesterday and Hannah and I got them installed that evening. Once the turbo is back on we'll be back at square one haha.

Don't be so certain. The simple act of disassembling the injectors, if the mechanic did so, may have cured your problem. Luck beats good, but you have to make room for luck to occur.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #160 – June 28, 2019, 12:40:12 pm

Did'nt research this but is it possible the injection pump could be timed 180 degrees out?

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #161 – June 28, 2019, 12:54:25 pm

Got back from Seattle and had a chance to check my leakdown tester. No adapters for injectors, unfortunately. I'm still happy to send you the tester if you wish to obtain an adapter. Bear in mind that it is necessary to prevent the engine from rotating when you pressurize a cylinder. Dangerous if it catches you unaware.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #162 – June 28, 2019, 04:26:45 pm

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – June 28, 2019, 12:54:25 pm

Bear in mind that it is necessary to prevent the engine from rotating when you pressurize a cylinder. Dangerous if it catches you unaware.

The Soft Boulders have already used the barring tool, so they've got better leverage than trying to hang onto a propeller while in goes the air. Art Joly Previous owner of N8772D, S/N 22-5959.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #163 – June 28, 2019, 05:04:22 pm

Aircraft pressurize to 80 psi and test with two people. After we bring the prop up to TDC firing, we pressurize the cylinder and then rock the prop a few degrees on each side of TDC and look for the highest reading. Naturally, 80/80 would be perfect but until it gets toward 80/70, it's usually in good shape. There is a calibrated orifice between the two gauges. You do have to keep a firm grip on the prop as it could kill or badly hurt someone if it hit them. A borescope is nice to hook to a laptop to take a look inside. Easy to see cylinder wall scoring or a valve problem. With a Detroit 2-cycle, you can pull the air box covers off the block and look at the rings as the are visible in the ports.

In the photo below, the exhaust manifold has been remove along with the front air box cover.

Pierce

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #164 – June 28, 2019, 10:49:10 pm

Tyler,
Check out a you tube video titled, Cummins Spill Timing Method B+C Model. Sorry couldn't get the link to work.
Mark C.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #165 – June 29, 2019, 08:28:47 am

Quote from: Hammer2100 – June 28, 2019, 10:49:10 pm

Tyler,
Check out a you tube video titled, Cummins Spill Timing Method B+C Model. Sorry couldn't get the link to work.
Mark C.

Cummins Spill Timing Method B+C Model - YouTube

My word! This video is transcribed from tape!

The secret to my success? Coffee.

Public comment on YouTube?

"Holy shit, i worked at a heavy truck Ford dealership back in the day when these B and C engines were used in the F7000.... When these engines came in for white smoke or breaking up at high RPM, all we did was find TDC ( the Ford engine had the timing marks ) broke free the gear on the injection pump, turned the engine back about the thickness of a paint stick, retightened the injection pump gear and assembled any other removed parts and started the engine.... Advancing the timing a couple degrees always took care of the white smoke and engine breaking up at high RPM's... I'm sure that was an EPA no-no at the time but, that's what we did to get those boat anchor engines to run properly....... God, i miss the good ole days....,"

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #166 – June 29, 2019, 10:34:30 am

I think the problem could be, during rebuild they may have missed torque on the pump. It would slip retarded. From the video cummins ignored the damper mark because poorly marking or slipped outer rings. I was shown this way of finding TDC from a man from England, been using it for 35 years. Extreme caution must be used when using the valves to stop the piston.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #167 – June 29, 2019, 10:41:30 am

Quote from: Hammer2100 – June 29, 2019, 10:34:30 am

I think the problem could be, during rebuild they may have missed torque on the pump. It would slip retarded. From the video cummins ignored the damper mark because poorly marking or slipped outer rings. I was shown this way of finding TDC from a man from England, been using it for 35 years. Extreme caution must be used when using the valves to stop the piston.

reply #54 he already found TDC

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #168 – June 29, 2019, 10:47:45 am

Craneman,
I had read that, but how was it done. Cummins is saying to ignore the timing pin and the marks back when the engines were first built.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #169 – June 29, 2019, 10:50:11 am

Quote from: Hammer2100 – June 29, 2019, 10:47:45 am

Craneman,
I had read that, but how was it done. Cummins is saying to ignore the timing pin and the marks back when the engines were first built.

He states he used the valve to piston method. I have always used that method degreeing cams on race engines.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #170 – June 29, 2019, 10:57:40 am

Yes, me to. But the post is about preforming the test, including finding TDC. He's in a pickle and just trying to help.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #171 – June 29, 2019, 12:37:43 pm

We got everything assembled and the fuel lines bled. Put two cans of Schaefer's soy shield in tank and let the engine idle for 20 mins or so. The smoke was much less than before so we took the coach for a test drive up the mountain. White smoke has turned to black smoke and has all but disappeared. The engine does blow out some black smoke while under load but there is none at idle. Operating temp stayed at 185ish and the engine has lots of power. I think we're going to just leave out in the morning and try to make it to Williamsport.

I don't have a clue what's going on with the engine but hopefully it is going to be ok. A wire on the tachometer sensor broke off and the stud broke off when I tried to remove the nut so we don't have a tachometer at the moment. We called mot to try and get a new one but they didn't call back. That seems to be a trend lately ha.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #172 – June 29, 2019, 12:40:37 pm

Just asking but since he has the injectors out is there any way of sticking a small dowel in the injector port and using that instead of a valve,thinking back on my Yamaha 250 timing with the dial indicator in the spark plug hole.I cringe when they use the valve method.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #173 – June 29, 2019, 12:53:12 pm

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – June 29, 2019, 12:37:43 pm

I don't have a clue what's going on with the engine but hopefully it is going to be ok. A wire on the tachometer sensor broke off and the stud broke off when I tried to remove the nut so we don't have a tachometer at the moment.

And that's the way it goes sometimes. You do all the right things, find nothing glaringly, obviously wrong, yet when you put it all back together the problem is gone. Just chalk it up to your inherent mechanical genius and go for a ride.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #174 – June 29, 2019, 01:21:49 pm

Maybe the valve lash check and like the other poster said the injectors just being taken out cured something,would still get the
fuel pressure gauge down the line to see what the pressure would be at higher rpm and get the aftermarket overflo valve.

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