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Topic: Lots of White Smoke (Read 7819 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #20 –
Quote from: Chuck Pearson –
Pierce's suggestion is an easy way to rule out  air in fuel issues.  Two gallon plastic fuel can, few feet of hose.  Change out fuel filters first if you haven't already done so. No diesel tolerates less than near perfect fuel delivery.

I had read a few threads about changing fuel lines and was curious if this was something that I needed to do this is something I will try and attempt.  There's so many things to do my head is beginning to spin.  I really don't know if we're capable of doing it all. 

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #21 –
Quote from: The Soft Boulders –
I had read a few threads about changing fuel lines and was curious if this was something that I needed to do this is something I will try and attempt.  There's so many things to do my head is beginning to spin.  I really don't know if we're capable of doing it all. 
You are not alone: take the easy ones first: avoid the 'dark side', know when to seek a pro. Easy does it! Just in case you need a break, I'd suggest this:

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #22 –
Googlate balance test. It would be far better to determine and pick the faulty injector before sending them for testing .imho
  Simply loosen or unplug each injector and wait for the rpm to stabilize. Read the rpm drop for each jug. My guess is that one will slow the smoke and the rpm drop will be less then the rest . That would be the easiest and cheapest fix as we could hope for. 

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #23 –
Quote from: The Soft Boulders –
I had read a few threads about changing fuel lines and was curious if this was something that I needed to do this is something I will try and attempt. 

A quick check on the condition of the fuel lines, as they usually first crack where they have been expanded to fit over the metal ends:

Go to your primary fuel filter.  Look carefully at the fuel lines.  You are checking for cracks, usually running on the long axis of the hose.  If you see deep cracks, yes, replacement is a good idea.  MAY be your problem, but, even if not, it will rear its ugly head at some point soon.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #24 –
I have to go with Mike on this one. Its easy for a diesel novice to chase the problem through a maze of possibilities, each failure accompanied by more and more frustration (and credit card debt).

You can loosen the nut on each injector but normally, the beginnings of a fuel restriction or air in the system fool you with a smooth idle. You could clamp off the feed hose at the tank and then put a MityVac on the engine end and watch for a drop indicating a tired hose. You can also proceed to the discharge of the primary, test again and so forth. Your generator problem is going to be hose related like ours for the exact same year coach. I'm just waiting to have to replace our main line. I've sent some coax and HDMI cables to the back so I know the tricks in getting it done the easiest way and the shortest amount of time. With a vinyl wrap cover on the cables, I was able to gently pull from about the rear wheel location and have the cable slide easily from the front center console. Try that with an uncovered fuel hose.

Our generator fuel hose was just a little damp in spots and had no apparent cracks. Only when I bent it and took a magnifying glass to the bend, did I see the millions of little cracks. A couple of years before, it would surge with the ACs going. It did that more and more even after I changed the filter. Then I installed the pressure gauge and then I could see good pressure when it started but the pressure would drop, the dreaded surge would start and then it would die.

So, installing a pressure gauge on the discharge side of the secondary filter is pretty easy and cheap. It will show the idle pressure but using Krush's idea of the GoPro, you can see the pressure when you are wide open throttle on a grade or freeway on ramp. I've even had filters try and fool me and after shutting down, the junk would settle to the bottom, running well the next day for a few miles and then returning with a vengeance. The Cummins lift pumps also cause their share of problems so a pressure gauge with a camera monitor would show that too. Yes, you can just put a sender and send the signal up to the dash through a wire in the extra wire bundle but that will take a lot more time to arrange.

A very, very inexpensive Chinese action camera (GoPro clone) works really well and the 4K versions are better than all but the latest real GoPro cameras. About 2 weeks for delivery. I think mine cost about $40 delivered but had more accessories than most. Even a remote control for the wrist. And to answer the next question, every real/authentic GoPro ever made was made in China so...

chinese action camera | eBay

So, it's like gambling on a fight or football game. You figure the percentages and then start where the odds are the best. Eliminate the highest first and you have a basis to go to the next possible remedy if the first didn't work.

Pierce

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #25 –
Pulled the manifold off and five of the six exhaust ports have a sticky wet-looking residue on the inside.  The front two cylinders are real nasty, the third is a little better and the rest are not as bad.  The collector for the first three cylinders at the turbo has a wet glazed look. I'm going to take the manifold to the machine shop and then go to Cummins to pick up new gaskets.  Would fuel cause the residue or would it more likely be oil?

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #26 –
Cylinder no 1

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #27 –
First I would find out exactly what they did on the overhaul and let us know.Did they replace the head or rebuild it?

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #28 –
Looks like oil to me and the cause of your smoke. Do you have the receipt for all the work/parts replaced during the overhaul? Many different levels and quality of overhauls. Did they just put new rings on the pistons or use a complete cylinder kit with new liners and pistons? How about valves, valve guides, valve seals? Was this a Cummins shop or ? Turbo seals failure are usually accompanied by lots of smoke all the time. The seal failure also means high EGTs that can cause internal engine damage.

As you can see on this ebay page, there are a lot of different overhaul kits from mail order kits complete even including valves from $888 to the Mahle kits for more than twice the money and without the valves, etc. Mahle is a German company with their pistons found OEM in Porsche, etc. cummins 8.3 overhaul kit | eBay

Hope you don't have to pull it down.

Pierce

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #29 –
Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart –
Looks like oil. Turbo seals failure are usually accompanied by lots of smoke all the time. The seal failure also means high EGTs that can cause internal engine damage.
I'd say oil, as well. I lucked out when I blew my turbo, limped back from AZ up to WA with no damage.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #30 –
Water causes white smoke, a friend said low compression will cause white smoke. If you are pulling your injectors out do a compression test. Oil causes blue smoke and a blown turbo the smoke is black.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #32 –
Low compression causes hard starting. A low compression engine once running and warm is pretty normal for smoke or fuel mileage. Over fueling causes black smoke (too much throttle on a grade with a mechanical engine).  Blown head gasket causes white smoke but it dissipates in seconds. Slow starting in cold weather/high altitude causes lots and lots of white smoke that may cause rocks to be thrown in campgrounds.

P

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #33 –
Quote from: The Soft Boulders –
Pulled the manifold off and five of the six exhaust ports have a sticky wet-looking residue on the inside.  The front two cylinders are real nasty, the third is a little better and the rest are not as bad.  The collector for the first three cylinders at the turbo has a wet glazed look. I'm going to take the manifold to the machine shop and then go to Cummins to pick up new gaskets.  Would fuel cause the residue or would it more likely be oil?
If you're lucky, you need valves, valve guides and oil seals.  FWIW I don't know if Cummins uses oil seals.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #34 –
Got the manifold resurfaced at the machine shop and the new gaskets from Cummins. The service guys spent a lot of time going over things with me.  They both felt fairly sure that the injection pump drive gear slipped timing.  They said the residue in the ports would be caused by the over fueling.  They spent time showing me pictures and explaining how it all worked and how to correct the timing.  If that isn't it next thing they said to check was the over flow valve. They printed off 26 pages of instructions for me ha!  Ive got the engine barring tool, correct torque wrench and the injection pump gear puller ordered. Everything will be here by Tuesday and I can't check the timing until I get the barring tool to set TDC.  We're keeping our fingers crossed that this is the issue. 

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #35 –
Quote from: The Soft Boulders –
If that isn't it next thing they said to check was the over flow valve.
I gotta say I applaud your gumption!  You obviously aren't afraid to dive in and get your hands dirty.  We appreciate that attitude around here.  ^.^d

Of all the possibilities you mention, the overflow valve is the only one I know anything about.  I doubt it is the cause of your troubles.  Most overflow valve problems are caused by either a weak or broken spring, or a piece of trash on the valve seat holding the valve slightly open.  In either case, the result would be LOW fuel pressure (less than 20-30 psi at idle) at the P7100 injection pump inlet.  Doesn't sound to me like this would relate to your current difficulties or cause any of the symptoms you describe.

If you are interested in adding a engine compartment fuel pressure gauge to monitor the injection pump inlet pressure, it is pretty easy to do.  See the thread linked below.  The first post shows the pressure gauge installation.  Reply #7 discusses replacing the overflow valve.

Fuel System Science Project

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #36 –
Quote from: The Soft Boulders –
Got the manifold resurfaced at the machine shop and the new gaskets from Cummins. The service guys spent a lot of time going over things with me.  They both felt fairly sure that the injection pump drive gear slipped timing.  They said the residue in the ports would be caused by the over fueling.  They spent time showing me pictures and explaining how it all worked and how to correct the timing.  If that isn't it next thing they said to check was the over flow valve. They printed off 26 pages of instructions for me ha!  Ive got the engine barring tool, correct torque wrench and the injection pump gear puller ordered. Everything will be here by Tuesday and I can't check the timing until I get the barring tool to set TDC.  We're keeping our fingers crossed that this is the issue. 
If you have the basic mechanical skill set, you're better off taking care of this much yourself.  Last thing you want to do is turn your engine over to a shop that doesn't want your business.  Word of hard earned advice?  If you start to experience "get thereitis" step back and walk away.  Focusing too much on the end brings on its own form of tunnel vision.

Post Script.
From 1997-2007 I tried to build a hot-metal "society" press.  One night I was finishing up setting a job on the Linotype and my partner came in and said "It's getting late, you're getting frustrated it's time to quit for the day."  I was goal focused.  I brushed Lynn off, defeated a safety device and watched a cascade of type metal flow over the top of the mold and down the front of the machine.  What is known in the trade as a squirt.  We went home.

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #37 –
Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie –
I gotta say I applaud your gumption!  You obviously aren't afraid to dive in and get your hands dirty.  We appreciate that attitude around here.  ^.^d

Of all the possibilities you mention, the overflow valve is the only one I know anything about.  I doubt it is the cause of your troubles.  Most overflow valve problems are caused by either a weak or broken spring, or a piece of trash on the valve seat holding the valve slightly open.  In either case, the result would be LOW fuel pressure (less than 20-30 psi at idle) at the P7100 injection pump inlet.  Doesn't sound to me like this would relate to your current difficulties or cause any of the symptoms you describe.

If you are interested in adding a engine compartment fuel pressure gauge to monitor the injection pump inlet pressure, it is pretty easy to do.  See the thread linked below.  The first post shows the pressure gauge installation.  Reply #7 discusses replacing the overflow valve.

Fuel System Science Project
The guy at cummins was saying something similar about the overflow valve actually causing under fueling.  I haven't done a lot of digging on the overflow valve yet but will definitely do some more research on it.  The fuel pressure gauge would be a nice addition for sure!

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #38 –
Quote from: The Soft Boulders –
The guy at cummins was saying something similar about the overflow valve actually causing under fueling.
You will see in the first post of that thread I linked, our engine fuel pressure at the injection pump inlet was only 3 psi when I started my fuel system project.  In other words it was very low.  I did have a mild "starting" problem that may have been related to the low fuel pressure, but our old coach seemed to otherwise run fine (no smoke).  I never experienced anything like the symptoms you are seeing. 

Re: Lots of White Smoke

Reply #39 –
Quote from: Old Toolmaker –
If you have the basic mechanical skill set, you're better off taking care of this much yourself.  Last thing you want to do is turn your engine over to a shop that doesn't want your business.  Word of hard earned advice?  If you start to experience "get thereitis" step back and walk away.  Focusing too much on the end brings on its own form of tunnel vision.

Post Script.
From 1997-2007 I tried to build a hot-metal "society" press.  One night I was finishing up setting a job on the Linotype and my partner came in and said "It's getting late, you're getting frustrated it's time to quit for the day."  I was goal focused.  I brushed Lynn off, defeated a safety device and watched a cascade of type metal flow over the top of the mold and down the front of the machine.  What is known in the trade as a squirt.  We went home.
I've had the "get thereitis" a few times.  Luckily on these type of projects I have so many things to learn it keeps me from getting too ahead of myself. 

I'm not familiar with a hot metal press.  It sounds cool though and if it took ten years to build it must be a complicated machine!  A "cascade of type metal" sounds wild! Ha