Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Topic: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common? (Read 2378 times) previous topic - next topic

Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

July 14, 2019, 02:01:19 pm

First off, my Batteries are 2 Years Old, but only used for 9 Months. I am now stranded in Vona Co, at the Onramp! I have called Good Sam Roadside Assistance, and they haven't gotten someone as yet after an hour, to Jump Start me! I had 2 House Batteries as wired by OEM, and a 3rd Battery fully charged, but not hooked into system. I took Jumper Cables and was able to start the Genny. I was plugged into Shore Power Yesterday, so assumed that they were fully charged. Last night, the Voltage, was 11.5 VDC for those two House Batteries. Going down the road, about 120 miles from Colorado Springs between Yesterday to today, I for whatever reason did not monitor the Voltage Output from the Alternator. I pulled over at this onramp, in Vona, to take a Power Nap. Woke up, after an hour, tried to start....No Go. Even after I hooked up that Spare House Battery, and engaged the Boost Switch, it just clicked the starter, no start!

The Service truck arrived, and we got it started. But the Alternator is only Putting out about 11.4 Volts Indicated. The Generator is putting out 13.5 Volts DC, but until I get to a Service facility 80+ miles down the Road, I do not want to shut it off!

So, it appears all 3 methods of charging both the House batteries, and now the Starting batteries is inop? Is there anything in common, Perhaps, that anyone has had issues like this with, and fixed it? I am suspecting a New Alternator, but the Confusing part is the House batteries do not seem to be charging, either?

I did reset all C/B's inside and the Xantrex Inverter seems to be fine, and no C/B issue there either!

Hopefully I gave a Good description of just what I am dealing with? I can clarify, if need be?

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #1 – July 14, 2019, 02:07:57 pm

If batteries are that deeply discharged, the only realistic way to proceed it to fully charge them and have them load tested.

Could be nothing more than a loose or corroded connection.
Could be a bad alternator.
Could be a bad sense wire.
Could be a bad battery isolator.

But, until the batteries are charged, troubleshooting can lead to some false conclusions.

What is your inverter/charger reading (both voltage and amps) when on shore power or generator?

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #2 – July 14, 2019, 02:14:47 pm

The Inverter is reading 14Vdc, and 50 AMPS, now, accepted Charge but took a While to do that! Now that you mention the Isolator, would that also keep the Alternator form Allowing a Full 14.4 VDC, Indicated? Hmm?

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #3 – July 14, 2019, 02:17:23 pm

Also, the Sense Wire, is it OK, to remove the Plug, as it is running, to see if I am getting at least the 12VDC, reference Voltage, or could I fry the Alternator for sure? I have checked all connections, right off! All seem good?

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #4 – July 14, 2019, 02:33:22 pm

So, now that the engine has been running about a Half an hour, I have not moved, and the Voltage is only 9.7 VDC on the Starting Batteries, which Indicates that I have an Issue with the Alternator. I have the Genny Running, and on BOOST, right now, is it safe to Limp it into a Service Center, for Troubleshooting? In other words is the Alternator required to keep the Engine Running, or will the Genny Provide what is needed?

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #5 – July 14, 2019, 02:38:20 pm

Tom, short in one of your batteries could also give you that voltage, even with a good alternator, happened to me once while driving. I would check individual batteries first.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #6 – July 14, 2019, 02:53:07 pm

OK, right now, I have 9 VDC, and a Warning Light comes on for the Transmission, and a Beeping Sound! Also, it seems like it is going into gear on it's own? the Parking Brake is engaged, of course, but the Allison Transmission is not operating, at all! It has Asterisks, and all other Gobody Goop, characters randomly displaying! I am glad I waited, before taking off, as at least I am not stranded on the side of the road! I Turned the engine off, now the voltage Indicator reads 11.6. All this sounds expensive to me? Guess I make another Service call to Good Sam! Hopefully it can be repaired here, If not, I get to see one of those Special Flatboy Trailers, to get her on to a facility, huh? Any troubleshooting idea is appreciated! I hate to turn the Genny off, now! At least I will have Constant Power. And I fear it isn't properly Charging the House Batteries either?

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #7 – July 14, 2019, 02:55:24 pm

Quote from: Jack Lewis – July 14, 2019, 02:38:20 pm

Tom, short in one of your batteries could also give you that voltage, even with a good alternator, happened to me once while driving. I would check individual batteries first.

The Starting Batteries are less than a Year old, BTW! Never had an Issue, I really suspect something in common with all 3 Charging Systems, at this point? Afraid to stop the Genny, for fear it isn't charging the Batteries either?

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #8 – July 14, 2019, 02:56:21 pm

Remove the cables linking the batteries together and check each one with a digital voltmeter. If all are OK, you can drive with the generator running. Shorted battery can run everything down.

Use Yelp to check for electric motor/auto shops around you. They will be able to troubleshoot the problem if alternator or isolator. No need for a RV or Cummins dealer to work on the alternator if that's the problem.

Another good reason to have at least a couple of plugin voltmeters for the dash and side panel lighter plugs. Easy to see the problem coming before you get stuck somewhere. Also, you can quickly see what happens to respective voltages when you hit the boost switch, etc. Without gauges, you are operating in the dark when things go south.

Solar also gives you backup insurance too if you have it.

Pierce

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #9 – July 14, 2019, 03:00:34 pm

Quote from: RetiredGuns – July 14, 2019, 02:33:22 pm

So, now that the engine has been running about a Half an hour, I have not moved, and the Voltage is only 9.7 VDC on the Starting Batteries, which Indicates that I have an Issue with the Alternator.

POSSIBLY. But, same symptoms if the battery isolator or wire connection is bad.

Again, fully charge both banks and have them load tested. THEN troubleshoot the electrical system.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #10 – July 14, 2019, 03:15:35 pm

I had a mis-wired isolator when we purchased the coach. I didn't realize it but left the headlights on one day and flattened all the batteries, engine and house. I just opened the hood on the toad and ran a jumper to the engine batteries and in about twenty minutes, I was on the road again.

Isolators are under $100 and a shop rebuilding the alternator should charge about $100 with bearing/diode replacements. More if anything major.

Have a toad with you?

Pierce

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #11 – July 14, 2019, 03:27:40 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – July 14, 2019, 03:15:35 pm

I had a mis-wired isolator when we purchased the coach. I didn't realize it but left the headlights on one day and flattened all the batteries, engine and house. I just opened the hood on the toad and ran a jumper to the engine batteries and in about twenty minutes, I was on the road again.

Isolators are under $100 and a shop rebuilding the alternator should charge about $100 with bearing/diode replacements. More if anything major.

Have a toad with you?

Pierce

I do, but being Sunday, it seems most places are of course closed, especially Alternator Shops! I might have to drive the 3 hours back to Colorado Springs, but first need to know for sure, what the Issue IS? I may call the Cummins Free Hotline again? Maybe they can shed some light? If anyone has a clue, as to what is in common, to all 3 Charging Systems, being Shore Power, Alternator and Generator, not charging either Bank, I'm all ears?

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #12 – July 14, 2019, 03:59:16 pm

Gen will provide power at the long term risk of the boost switch heating up as it consumes power to hold it together.

A auto combiner would connect the batteries without any heating or power consumption issues in a future upgrade.

I would check cabling and connections first.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #13 – July 14, 2019, 04:39:04 pm

Tom, we just had our alternator rebuilt and average cost is $160 for a complete rebuild. When we lost our alternator on our '98, we drove well over 100 miles with our generator running to a repair shop if the alternator is the only problem. Hoping you get it resolved with little issues.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #14 – July 14, 2019, 04:39:35 pm

Run on down to walmart and pick yourself up a 25amp charger and charge your chasis batteries. at 11.6 your batteries are virtually dead. get them charged up. As Wolfe said, charge them up before you try and trouble shoot. Low voltage on the allison transmisssion controller can damage it(dont ask how I know this, also, the HWH leveling system).

Rick

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #15 – July 14, 2019, 04:43:18 pm

Stop and buy a battery charger.. not a digital one.. run a cord and put it on high.. will or should get you where you are going...thats what I did when my alternator went out on the way to cali..

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #16 – July 14, 2019, 04:54:56 pm

Pierce's advise to disconnect cables and check voltage is good advice. Also using a charger to raise individual battery voltage is good as it will also point out a shorted battery. Checking cable connections, loose cable can also discharge a battery instead of charging. In my case of the shorted out battery, I had exactly the same symptoms you described.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #17 – July 14, 2019, 04:58:22 pm

Thanks All! I have been on the Phone with Good Sam's Telephone Troubleshooter, and he agrees that it may be an Isolator, but that could be because I suggested it? Anyway, if you read above, I am still experiencing the fact, that as soon as I start the coach, which the Genny Seems to be Charging now, BTW! I get it up to 12vDC, start it, and watch the Voltage drop, quickly! Within an hour or so, with the Engine running, the Voltage goes all the way down to 9VDC, the Transmission Indication Display looks like a Las Vegas, Slot Machine, and cannot be driven! So, I called and Good Sam, cannot find an RV Tech, on Sunday, but has gotten a Big Truck Mechanic calling me so I can fill him in, if he sounds like he is not familiar with RV Systems, I will wait, right where we are at, until Tomorrow, as at least I am Safe! To be Stuck on a Shoulder, is way too risky for me! The Generator (10 KW, Diesel) uses only .5 Gallons of fuel and hour anyway, right? I will still check the forum, from time to time, and if there is something I didn't try, I will try that!

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #18 – July 14, 2019, 05:00:31 pm

Quote from: DavidS – July 14, 2019, 04:43:18 pm

Stop and buy a battery charger.. not a digital one.. run a cord and put it on high.. will or should get you where you are going...thats what I did when my alternator went out on the way to cali..

I have Both Types of Chargers with me! My very Old Sears 6 AMP Charger, is at least 45 YO, and never quits! I'll let them figure that out! Unless they seem to be inept?

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #19 – July 14, 2019, 05:03:03 pm

Unfortunately any severe discharge lowers the batteries capacity unless possibly a desulfurization device is used afterwards.

My experience is that 100% perfect charging and use results in the best life.

Only way I have found that gets that kind of reliability is a solar system and a auto combiner.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #20 – July 14, 2019, 05:11:07 pm

The smart inverter charger is programmed to NOT try to charge a deeply discharged battery.

So, as others have said, use your "dumb" charger to get voltage up to where the inverter/charger can take over.

And STOP RUNNING THE ENGINE. You are serious danger of damaging engine and transmission electronic control units!

Start with the house bank, as the inverter/charger is hard wired to it. Once amps of charging drops below 20 amps, use the boost switch to allow it to charge the chassis batteries. If turning on the boost switch does not materially increase inverter/charger amp output (indicating that the boost switch/relay is not working) there are some very easy work arounds.

Just let us know and we can help.

And, as said early on, be sure battery connections (positive and ground) are clean and tight!

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #21 – July 14, 2019, 05:32:13 pm

Quote from: RetiredGuns – July 14, 2019, 02:01:19 pm

The Service truck arrived, and we got it started. But the Alternator is only Putting out about 11.4 Volts Indicated. The Generator is putting out 13.5 Volts DC, but until I get to a Service facility 80+ miles down the Road, I do not want to shut it off!

Hopefully I gave a Good description of just what I am dealing with? I can clarify, if need be?

Been there, done that.

1) Until your Chassis battery is fully charged you can't test the engine alternator. If the load (battery and engine) is drawing too much current the alternator's control circuit will reduce the voltage to protect the alternator by limiting the current output.

2) Hook your known good house batteries up to the chassis and run your generator and Xantrex to power the engine and keep the batteries charged.

3) 0.5 gph for your diesel generator? Ouch. On Sunday and Monday this week past I used up 5/8 of my 35 gallon propane tank running my Onan for about 16 hours for relief from the heat.

At the end of the day, get yourself what you need to get to your destination. You need electricity to run your chassis engine and transmission.

"You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes you get what you need."

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #22 – July 14, 2019, 06:16:38 pm

Quote from: Twig – July 14, 2019, 04:52:07 pm

By any chance have you recently replaced the alternator?

AFAIK, it may be Original Equipment?

I just got of the Phone with Roadside Service, and he feels it is ONLY the Alternator? I will go to Isolator, to see if the Input from the Alternator is 14+ Vdc, or will have roadside assistance do it! It's above 90 degrees, at this moment, and this AC feels too good, to get out of! That's why we pay them the Big Bucks, right? I appreciate all the Free Advice I am getting, from here as well, As Usual, ALL Foretravel Owners are THE BEST! And I thank you, Immensely!

First off, the advice of the RV Tech, differed from the actual Roadside Assistance person. The problem was, as he said he knows RV Electrical Systems, he was 100 miles OUTSIDE his Service area. He was told by the Good Sam Rep I was near Boulder! Nope, no where near there! I even made the Rep, repeat back of exactly where I was, who knows how that got confused? I have another call in for another Service Tech who I can get out here to Troubleshoot BOTH the Alternator, and/or, Isolator?

Depending on what Part is bad, I would not be able to get it, until Tomorrow, so I will have them pull the part, Pay them for that, as Good Sam is JUST the Service call, of course, and not Parts and Labor (Oops, I just found out as I was typing this that No One will be available until 10 AM, to even talk to me! I will try and Troubleshoot it myself, jerk the Bad Part off, and be Somewhere as soon as they open, with bells an whistles on!!! LOL )

Then, if it is the Leece - Neville Alternator, decide if I want or can wait for a rebuild as said on here about $150.00, or nearly a Grand for a New one?

Has anyone Upgraded to a Higher AMP Alternator that will work without overheating, as the Service Tech, said he does not recommend a Higher Amperage Alternator? I do it all the Time in my Trucks, and Offroad Vehicles, without issue, so don't understand why I could not in the Foretravel? Bigger is Always Better, when it comes to AMPS, and I was considering having 2 or maybe 3 HUGE alternator, like I have seen on newer Coaches that require more power, these days!

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #23 – July 14, 2019, 06:22:52 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – July 14, 2019, 05:11:07 pm

The smart inverter charger is programmed to NOT try to charge a deeply discharged battery.

So, as others have said, use your "dumb" charger to get voltage up to where the inverter/charger can take over.

And STOP RUNNING THE ENGINE. You are serious danger of damaging engine and transmission electronic control units!

Start with the house bank, as the inverter/charger is hard wired to it. Once amps of charging drops below 20 amps, use the boost switch to allow it to charge the chassis batteries. If turning on the boost switch does not materially increase inverter/charger amp output (indicating that the boost switch/relay is not working) there are some very easy work arounds.

Just let us know and we can help.

And, as said early on, be sure battery connections (positive and ground) are clean and tight!

Thank YOU! I told Good Sam, already, that I am stranded, and need assistance, glad now that I stuck to that. Both Techs I talked to asked me if I could Limp it into a Service Center, and I refused after I saw all that Gibberish on the Transmission Display! I will work on charging those batteries with the Transformer (OLD) style Battery Charger, once things get a bit cooler! It's 95 degrees outside, and the Wife would rather I stick around for awhile longer, LOL

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #24 – July 14, 2019, 06:28:35 pm

If it's the isolator and you are going to change it either yourself or a shop is, take a label machine and use it to identify which cable is which. Yes, there are factory markings on the ends but ours had long since faded out. After you have labeled the cables, take a photo of it. The PO had replaced the isolator but tied both battery banks together so when one died, the other one did too. Took me a couple of hours with the schematic and a multimeter to get it straightened out.

Pierce

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