Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Topic: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common? (Read 2378 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #25 – July 14, 2019, 06:30:55 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – July 14, 2019, 05:03:03 pm

Unfortunately any severe discharge lowers the batteries capacity unless possibly a desulfurization device is used afterwards.

My experience is that 100% perfect charging and use results in the best life.

Only way I have found that gets that kind of reliability is a solar system and a auto combiner.

The PO, installed a Desulfating device, which is connected, all the time! And yes, Ideally the Batteries are kept as close to a full charge as possible! Long story short, I find that Nearly Impossible, for the House Battery Bank, as in about 5 hours, or so, the Voltage has dropped, below 11.7, which of course knocks the Inverter Off - Line! The Most demand I ever put on it is the Microwave Oven, and a Few lights, or when it was cold, for the Heater Fan Motors. I have Solar Panels, but they stopped working, and I was going to troubleshoot just WHY that happened, as I have not gotten my "Round Tuit" for it, just as yet!

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #26 – July 14, 2019, 10:27:04 pm

So, along the very same line as most have alluded to, I found this TSB from(Prestolite) Leece Neville, alternator Testing to be of interest, in my case, perhaps? http://www.prestolite.com/literature/tech/alts/TSB-1019_On_Trk_Troubleshooting.pdf

And also, beamalarm has posted a similar TSB http://www.prestolite.com/literature/tech/alts/TSB-1019_On_Trk_Troubleshooting.pdf

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #27 – July 15, 2019, 06:20:52 am

Tom,

If you have an OEM system (isolator & DUVAC alternator) this TSB isn't for you. In step 3 if you have battery voltage at the alternator + terminal with a DUVAC system then the isolator has failed.

Mike

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #28 – July 15, 2019, 08:39:37 am

Quote from: Caflashbob – July 14, 2019, 05:03:03 pm

Unfortunately any severe discharge lowers the batteries capacity unless possibly a desulfurization device is used afterwards.

What we have here, is a failure to communicate.

Whats happens when you totally discharge a starting lighting and ignition flooded lead acid battery, is that the lead sponge that makes up the active component of the battery sheds and settles to the bottom. because of the physical size change between the two lead oxides.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #29 – July 15, 2019, 08:46:57 am

Quote from: RetiredGuns – July 14, 2019, 10:27:04 pm

So, along the very same line as most have alluded to, I found this TSB from(Prestolite) Leece Neville, alternator Testing to be of interest, in my case, perhaps? http://www.prestolite.com/literature/tech/alts/TSB-1019_On_Trk_Troubleshooting.pdf

And also, beamalarm has posted a similar TSB http://www.prestolite.com/literature/tech/alts/TSB-1019_On_Trk_Troubleshooting.pdf

What I want to say: The surface charge is the third chemical reaction in a lead acid battery and is mostly completed after 3 hours. After charging your battery, you need to wait 3 hours before you can achieve a meaningful state of charge voltage reading.

Welcome to civilian life, and I'm sticking my neck out here, Guns.
We don't have TSOs. Most of the time we're lucky to have accurate documentation.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #30 – July 15, 2019, 09:38:45 am

Guns,

I just read through this whole thread, and I understand your frustration. You are getting lots of advice from different directions. You are stuck on the road, and you need to be able to move your coach to a place where repairs can be more realistically accomplished.

Not to belittle the roadside service techs, but very few of them are familiar with the complex charging systems on our coaches.

Taking all the advice from our Forum members and distilling it down to the simplist terms, my "free" advice would be this:

1. Don't attempt to run your big engine until you have a fully charged engine start battery. The engine, transmission and HWH leveling system must have proper voltage to operate. As long as your generator is running, you can get along fine for now without worrying about the house (coach) batteries.

2. You have a operating generator (115V power supply) and a "dumb" battery charger, so you have the means to get the engine start battery charged. This should be your first priority. Save the technical trouble shooting until you get the coach moving again and get back to civilization.

3. Once the engine start battery is fully charged, if you run your generator and turn on your boost switch, you should be able to drive the coach in that condition without any problem. The inverter will supply more than enough charging voltage through the boost switch to the engine battery to keep it charged as you drive. Forum members have driven thousands of miles with a totally dead alternator by using this procedure.

4. Drive the coach to a place where you can get plugged in and safe, then you can proceed with trouble shooting in a calm, logical manner.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #31 – July 15, 2019, 10:05:22 am

Regarding the Boost switch, I had an alternator failure and called FT support. I asked James T how long I could run the coach with the generator running and the boost switch on. He responded, til you run out of fuel, otherwise, indefinitely. So technically, you dont need an alternator as long as you run the generator all the time.

Just an FYI.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #32 – July 15, 2019, 11:14:34 am

Quote from: AncloteJoe – July 15, 2019, 10:05:22 am

Regarding the Boost switch, I had an alternator failure and called FT support. I asked James T how long I could run the coach with the generator running and the boost switch on. He responded, til you run out of fuel, otherwise, indefinitely. So technically, you dont need an alternator as long as you run the generator all the time.
Just an FYI.

But pushing the boost switch is not a guarantee that the boost solenoid is working. The light on the switch only means that it SHOULD be working. Again, that's why I have my twin voltmeters right in front of me so when you do use the boost switch, you can instantly watch the voltage come up if the solenoid is working. Yes, you should be able to drive forever with the generator working.

Our voltages are constantly changing while driving. If I see the engine battery voltage stabilize and then start dropping, it's time for the boost switch, generator and to head somewhere safe and out of the sun where I can figure out what's wrong.

If you have solar, the generator does not even have to be running if the boost switch/solenoid is working.

Photo is early morning at a campsite with the solar controller delivering bulk voltage to the house batteries.

Pierce

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #33 – July 15, 2019, 11:23:01 am

I had a similar issue with batteries discharging, it ended up a two things, bad regulator in alternator and the switch that starts the engine from the rear engine bay. Like many have said here, I chose to start with new fully charged batteries before checking anything or running engine.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #34 – July 16, 2019, 01:50:57 pm

Thank you for all your replies! I am now safely in an RV Park, after being put on a Flatbed, and dropped off in Stratton Colorado, off of I-70! There is an RV Tech, that has a Brick and Mortar, in this town, who is 77 Years old, and knows his stuff on RV Appliances, but not Motorhome Electrics! I would like to conquer this myself, and ways to "Work Around", on this issue, to get me back to PA, would be great, then really dig into my issues!

The Plot thickens! I will simplify my Voltage conditions as much as possible, to relate what I am experiencing, and can elaborate, any position, if need be! First off, I parked on in a town, about 2 hours or so, out of Colorado Springs for the night, as we got a late start, and sleep has been sparse! I tried to run the Genny, and No Way, would it start, with 1/2 a tank! I figured it was an anomaly, as we never had issue with it, woke up the next day, and put another 50 gallons in the Diesel Tank, and off we went! I did not sleep well that evening as well, and we pulled off the Highway, about an hour further down the road so I could Power Nap! I woke up, put the key in ignition.....No Start! I called Good Sam for a Jump, and noticed by Batteries were @ about 9 Volts at that time! The Roadside Assistance showed up, and she started OK, but noticed the Alternator was only supplying a bit over 11 Volts. So instead of continuing on, I waited, to see what would happen! Seems that Both Battery Banks were dropping in voltage, so I shut it off! I tried to start the Coach once again, and the Display on the Allison Transmission Selector went all haywire! I knew I was now Stranded! I called Good Sam, this time they contacted me with a Telephone Troubleshooter! He said that it was either the Alternator, or the Battery Isolator. After reading many posts, I determined that No Way I was going to make matters worse, and Good Sam could not find any Roadside Tech, to get me going, so I asked for a TOW, at this point! They found a Mechanic but when I called, I found out, he was ONLY going to do an R & R, of the Alternator, and if it was anything else, it needed to go several hours away, to Denver!

I then cancelled THAT Tow, as I said they'd have to do another Expensive Tow, if that wasn't the Issue! They agreed to Tow it 7 Miles to this Town of Stratton Colorado, so I'd at least be Flat, and have Electric, etc. There are 3 RV Parks here, so that was nice! Right now, the Tech cannot see me for 3 days, and if anyone has idea's I'd appreciate it! If I do get into it, I will do it in the Early Morning Hours, or Evening perhaps? I can stay as long as it takes to fix this, but of course would like to get home!

So, this morning, plugged into a 50 AMP Service pole, I read my House Batteries, and they read, 17 Volts! Not happy, about all of that, because these Batteries, are all newer, and I realize I may have toasted them all? I shut the Salesman Switch off, and the House Batteries went down a bit, but I am still going to Disconnect them!

Should I put a Load on them, right away, or wait? It's a wonder they have not exploded, all over the place, actually! The Starting Battery Bank is Stable now, at 12.4 Vdc!

So, the ONLY thing that comes to mind is my Inverter is Fried, and needs replacement? I have to unbolt it, to get to the Output Terminals at this point, to confirm it is messing up, and will try and do that tonight! It is now nearing 100 degrees outside! Gotta LOVE A/C! I have SLA Batteries, that I replaced with SLA's as well, and Sage Advice from Brett Wolfe, said that the Inverter Charger must be Set to the Proper Parameters for they Type of Battery!

So, Keep your advice coming, and if you feel, at this point, it is a Faulty Inverter, and recommendations for the best Versatile one out there, I'd appreciate it!

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #35 – July 16, 2019, 02:01:27 pm

I want to add, that Good Sam, did the best that they can, given it was a Sunday, and I'm far from any larger sized town. Make sure you verify, by calling and explaining all issues with person they are sending out, or being sent to, as they were wrong, several times. You just have to understand that they were maybe a Bartender, before becoming a Good Sam Associate, and a few even said they were very new, and did not know RV Service, one bit! Otherwise, the Bill was well over $2K, for the Jump Start, and the Two Tows required for a Trailer, and the Motorhome! I saw the bills, and it was not cheap, but the Roadside Assistance Insurance sure was, in comparison! I give them 4 Stars out of 5! Understand though, this was the very First need, in belonging to them for many decades, so it might be Even/Steven?

Just want to mention that you must say, or actually not be in a safe location. The Amount I saw that is covered, is only $999.00, if you are in a Safe Place! Something to remember!

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #36 – July 16, 2019, 02:17:45 pm

Tom,

As we discussed on the phone, use your small "stupid" chargers on both battery banks.

Once up to 14.2 VDC and low amps going in, disconnect stupid chargers. This may take many hours if batteries are deeply discharged and charger amp output is low.

With a digital voltmeter on the chassis battery, have Barb try to start it. If voltage at the battery drops below 10 VDC, the batteries are bad. If it is above 10 VDC, but either won't start OR Barb sees voltage at the dash for the chassis battery drop below 10 VDC, look for a wiring problem. Could be something as simple as a loose or rusty connection for the ground wire at the chassis/engine.

Again, with both inverter/charger and alternator both showing symptoms at exactly the same time, you need to eliminate the thing they have in common (batteries) before spending big bucks on other equipment.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #37 – July 16, 2019, 02:48:38 pm

Brett, I did charge the Batteries up with the Genny, and they now seem to be stabilized, at 12.2 Volts! Of course, I only operated the Engine 3 times since then, and the Alternator Voltmeter only showed a charge rate, a bit over 11 Volts! I shut it down after my Service Air Brakes were up to Snuff, maybe 5 Minutes. I checked voltage, 12.2, after shutting it down. The same when I loaded it on the Flatbed, and off! So about maybe a grand total of 30 Minutes, of operation, seemed to be fine! I still did not want to Limp it 7 miles, because the Gremlins are running rampant in my electrical system! I will isolate, by turning off the Cutoff switch at the Starting Batteries, and monitor them as well! Remember, I had Issues though with the Genny Charging them, with the Dumb Charger, although, when I put each battery, separately on the Dumb Charger, they did an Initial reading of about 3 AMP Draw, which Indicates the Batteries are in good shape! I was going to, at that point, hook all 3 portable chargers I had with me, when the Genny Died!

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #38 – July 16, 2019, 03:05:30 pm

So, even after disconnecting the Salesman Switch, I just saw 17.5 Vdc, indicated, it's been several hours, now, so I unbolted my House Batteries. I have a Digital Temp Meter, with the laser pointer, and surface temp on the Left Battery was 120 degrees. The Right battery concerned me at 140 Degrees. I installed the same Brand/Spec Batter in the Shelf above those two, to the Left of the Inverter. I have the Wire ready to plumb it in with Terminals etc., and a Boat/Marine Quality selector switch, I have, but did not install, as yet! I jumper that battery in from time to time to keep them on a relatively same charging/discharging cycle. Not the best method, but I know I need to wire it all up, soon! The spare battery was reading 117 degrees, and I am keeping the Bay Door open, to cool things down! I shut the Inverter off, as it read about 132 Degrees. The Fan seems to still continue to run, which is good! As said, I am taking that inverter out, to verify, Input Voltage and Output! So now that component is Suspect?

I see No Work Around with these conditions, but if there is, again, I am willing to try about anything. If a component needs replacement I will just stay in place, if need be, order and Install, any component, needed to fix this properly! When all things settle down with the battery though, I will try the two workarounds suggested already!

One is to find the Terminal that comes from the 3 Starting Batteries, and tie it directly to the Alternator, at the Battery Isolator, ....and see what happens, and also try and just Run the Genny with the Boost Switch on. Question there is how does one verify that the relay is in fact good, and it's location, please?

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #39 – July 16, 2019, 03:12:50 pm

Quote from: RetiredGuns – July 16, 2019, 03:05:30 pm

Question there is how does one verify that the relay is in fact good, and it's location, please?

Very easy.

Measure voltage at chassis bank, then at house bank. They will be different (at least very highly likely they will be different).

Now, turn on boost switch.

Check again-- they should be exactly the same.

Note: easy to do this at the battery isolator outer lugs (one goes to each battery bank).

You can also temporarily hardwire the two battery banks together. Just move one of the cables from an outer lug on the battery isolator (goes to one battery bank) and ADD IT to the lug with cable going to the other battery bank.

Now batteries will all charge AND DISCHARGE together as one large battery bank.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #40 – July 16, 2019, 03:48:51 pm

I am wondering if your volt meter is any good and giving bad reading? 12.2 Volts is too low, 17 is way to high, unless the volt meter is showing the wrong voltage which is possible.

Tom, Lets keep this simple to figure out what the problem is. First do what Brett has said in the post above this and then report back your answers.

I would add that after doing Brett's tests go and disconnect all batteries from each other and then check the voltage of each one after they have sat for at least 1/2 hr not connected to anything. Then come here and give us the voltage at each battery, coach and chassis. Since you also have temp gun it would not hurt to give us the temp of each battery when you are checking the voltage.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #41 – July 16, 2019, 04:27:52 pm

The Cummins as far as I know can run at 9 volts. Not sure on the Allison

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #42 – July 16, 2019, 04:41:46 pm

After doing above, you can simply take the alternator off and take it to a shop to have tested. NAPA/Autozone/O'Reilly's can test for free. Use the internet to find the closest store and call them. If they can't do it, they will have a recommendation.

Pulling the alternator off only requires the most basic hand tools. Seems like that would be a lot easier than all that you have gone through. Do you know how to check the isolator and boost solenoid? What kind of voltmeter are you using?

Pierce

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #43 – July 16, 2019, 04:50:29 pm

Agree with Pierce that pulling the alternator is pretty simple. But, first I would verify that the alternator, not batteries, wiring, battery isolator, etc IS the problem.

The isolator is a good place to do your troubleshooting with a digital voltmeter as all the places you need to check are within a few inches of each other and any good clean metal there makes a good ground:

With engine off, generator off, inverter off, shore power disconnected: Record voltage at the two outer lugs of the isolator (each representing a battery bank.

Start the engine and raise to 1100 RPM or so.

Check and record voltage at the two outer lugs AND the center lug coming from the alternator B+ terminal.

Post the results.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #44 – July 16, 2019, 06:28:49 pm

Brett,

He may not know where the isolator is located. Probably different than our U300. You probably will have a better idea than I do.

Pierce

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #45 – July 16, 2019, 07:42:03 pm

Reading the statements by OP above, he seems to think that 12.2 volts indicates a fully charged battery, when in fact it is actually only about 50% SOC, depending on battery type. The generic battery SOC chart below may help clear up any confusion?

If I am incorrect in thinking there is any question about what constitutes a fully charged 12 volt battery, then I apologize to Tom.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #46 – July 16, 2019, 07:52:04 pm

Yes, Chuck! Batteries are fully charged at about 12.7 volts. They will start to sulfate at 12.2V and below. See attached for voltages for conventional, AGM, GEL.

Pierce

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #47 – July 16, 2019, 08:02:35 pm

Yes, I know just where the Isolator, is, and it has four Lugs. Labels are gone, but I can determine what each Lug is, by looking to where they go. So, the B+ as an example, as a Lug by itself is not labeled . I will label them, as I trace their source, easy enough! My multimeter is Brand New, as I misplaced a Lead to another known good one!

I have a Napa, within Walking Distance, and one of the reasons I picked this location, to figure this all out! That's all they have along I-70, in these parts and they are nearly in every small town, to support the Farming Industry! They cannot test, the Alternator on the Bench Here, but in the coach, they can!

Is it possible to just remove the connector on the alternator, while running, without harming anything else? It has External Excitation, With a Reference Voltage, that's just why I ask?

I really wonder though, if I have fried one the components, due to being plugged into shore Power Now, and getting over 17 Volt Charge, and with the Genny over 15 Volts! That concerns me, and points More to the Inverter/Converter, being the actual Issue, if it controls the Alternator, and making it charge at a lesser rate, going down the road? Again, something MUST be in common here that is causing all these Voltage Swings, in differing conditions! Running, it is a Massive Draw, whereas Charging, a Major Over-Charge! So, Alternator Low Charge, and diminishing the Batteries to 9 Volt, and then the Charge Cycle with Genny, and Shore Power, goes through the Roof!

Even with usual workarounds I have as an Option, Something, Somewhere is causing all this? And I fear going down the Highway, till it is right! So if anyone has ever experienced this exact issue, please elaborate, what it took to get it right again! Again, IF the Inverter/Charger, which is the Original Equipment Xantrex unit, and Display in the coach, actually can Draw a Huge Load, under Engine Power, maybe that is the actual Culprit in all of this? What am I missing?

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #48 – July 16, 2019, 08:44:57 pm

Your alternator has a built in voltage regulator. It should deliver roughly 14.5 volts if the batteries are low tapering off as the batteries are charged. The isolator sends the alternator voltage to both engine and house batteries. If the inverter is turned off and not supplying 110V, there should be no draw. Don't confuse the inverter with the converter/charger. It converts 110V shore power to 12V to charge the batteries. It should be a 3 stage smart charger with adjustable settings.

If you have solar, it will have a controller to send just the right amount of voltage to the house batteries.

Go to YouTube videos to get a primer on RV charging systems.

Pierce

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #49 – July 16, 2019, 08:49:27 pm

Quote from: RetiredGuns – July 16, 2019, 08:02:35 pm

Again, IF the Inverter/Charger, which is the Original Equipment Xantrex unit, and Display in the coach, actually can Draw a Huge Load, under Engine Power, maybe that is the actual Culprit in all of this? What am I missing?

Basics. If you draw enough power from the alternator, the regulator will reduce voltage to protect the alternator from over current damage. If your Xantrex is running something by making 120VAC then yes it will stress the alternator.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Just stuff: 1500 watts = 120VAC X 12.5 Amperes.

Never mind the details, That same 1500 watts = 12VDC X 125 Amperes.

Running your rooftop AC through the Inverter puts a serious load on the engine's alternator.

FWIW, coming back from Texas, and our recent run up to Clarksville and back we noticed that any load on the electric system dropped the DC voltage.

I've ordered a new serpentine belt for the Alternator.

Basics First.

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