Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Topic: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common? (Read 2378 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #50 – July 16, 2019, 09:15:06 pm

Quote from: Old Toolmaker – July 16, 2019, 08:49:27 pm

Basics. If you draw enough power from the alternator, the regulator will reduce voltage to protect the alternator from over current damage. If your Xantrex is running something by making 120VAC then yes it will stress the alternator.

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Just stuff: 1500 watts = 120VAC X 12.5 Amperes.

Never mind the details, That same 1500 watts = 12VDC X 125 Amperes.

Running your rooftop AC through the Inverter puts a serious load on the engine's alternator.

FWIW, coming back from Texas, and our recent run up to Clarksville and back we noticed that any load on the electric system dropped the DC voltage.

I've ordered a new serpentine belt for the Alternator.

Basics First.

Understood, Fully! And what Brett has Provided, makes sense, as well. I have had the House batteries Isolated for several Hours now, and will see what the Voltage is, and report back. What I cannot get through my Brain Housing Group, (Marinese

) is how and why it is Fluctuating so much?

Not that it is a Complete Fix, I did see this in another Post! Could it help me? Maybe??? I do not want to kill $2500, Worth of Batteries, at this point, so anything that works to protect them, at all costs is worth it to me! The $39.00 one is what may work, but need to figure out how to tie it into the system, to protect and fix my issue! I hate Band Aids but whatever can work, is good to me!https://www.progressivedyn.com/service/shop/

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #51 – July 17, 2019, 05:36:32 pm

Brett, just understand I need someone to Hammer, my Head, till the Lightbulb goes on! LOL I called Jeremy, @ the Factory, and explained the Whole ordeal I have been dealing with, and he feels that it is completely the issue! The Isolator has to be the Culprit, as a Bad Diode would allow a Higher Voltage for Charging, and for the Alternator to not Charge. With any luck, that is the Bad Component. I can go out and tie my Chassis Batteries with my Alternator, and also Isolate the Xantrex Inverter / Charger so it does not continue to Overcharge my House Batteries! So, at this point, it does appear I fried my Isolator, and Inverter / Charger? Hopefully that is the only things I have to replace? We shall see?

I am STILL relying on a Roadside Assistance, RV Tech, that Good Sam has just Contracted. He will be here sometime Tomorrow afternoon! I want him to actually FIX the issue, if Possible? Too many anomalies in this whole scenario still does not add up, to me! If I have to, I will Wire it up as suggested, but since Good Sam will help, I will take that as well! Just to let you know, they were ready to NOT Assist as they did get me off the Roadside! I asked to speak to a Supervisor, and he listened, to my plight, and approved a Technician! I just want to get a Complete Fix, if I can!

Good Sam, has spent at least $2,000.00 so far, and have been Pretty Cooperative, given the Circumstances! I give them a 4, out of 5, , as well! All I can say, is don't leave home without some Roadside Assistance plan, unless you can handle Thousands in being safely off the road, at least! I will ask what he will charge them Tomorrow for their Mobile repair Service, as well! I am a Member of FMCA, but do not have their Roadside Service Plan! I may get that as well, as a Backup, possibly?

So, I will check for resources on here, but does anyone possibly have a NAPA replacement Part Number for the Appropriate Isolator?

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #52 – July 17, 2019, 05:49:56 pm

IF, repeat IF the battery isolator is the issue:

http://www.napaonline.com/en/p/TWR48160BX?partTypeName=Battery+Isolator&keywordInput=battery+isolator

But, can't quite noodle through how a bad battery isolator could cause an inverter/charger to charge at extreme high voltage.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #53 – July 17, 2019, 06:16:12 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – July 17, 2019, 05:49:56 pm

IF, repeat IF the battery isolator is the issue:

http://www.napaonline.com/en/p/TWR48160BX?partTypeName=Battery+Isolator&keywordInput=battery+isolator

But, can't quite noodle through how a bad battery isolator could cause an inverter/charger to charge at extreme high voltage.

Brett, I totally Agree! You are not here, and offered that Absolute Best advice you could! The Technician, Tomorrow, will Hopefully be Competent to actually Fix it! I will report all his findings and conclusions to share with all, of course! Thanks for that Part Number Sir!

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #54 – July 17, 2019, 06:23:02 pm

OOPS I have a 4 Pole. That one is a 3 pole! The P/N they gave me, was 7821268 rated at 120 AMP, and was the Highest they offered. If I have 160 AMP Alternator, would it just FRY that one, eventually? If not, I will order it ASAP, as they have Overnight Delivery, and I'd like it here for the Tech to replace! Thanks!

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #55 – July 17, 2019, 06:47:41 pm

So, look at your wiring diagram/actual wiring. What is the "extra" lug connected to?

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #56 – July 17, 2019, 08:14:59 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – July 17, 2019, 06:47:41 pm

So, look at your wiring diagram/actual wiring. What is the "extra" lug connected to?

It is probably jumpered to the coach battery post - same as the OEM isolator was on our '93. 4 post isolators were common at that time.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #57 – July 17, 2019, 09:00:12 pm

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – July 17, 2019, 08:14:59 pm

It is probably jumpered to the coach battery post - same as the OEM isolator was on our '93. 4 post isolators were common at that time.

Yup, that is the common wiring. Going to a 200 amp "3 lug" should work just fine.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #58 – July 17, 2019, 09:45:51 pm

Quote from: RetiredGuns – July 17, 2019, 06:16:12 pm

Brett, I totally Agree! You are not here, and offered that Absolute Best advice you could! The Technician, Tomorrow, will Hopefully be Competent to actually Fix it! I will report all his findings and conclusions to share with all, of course! Thanks for that Part Number Sir!

The other thought is to simplify. Take the battery isolator out the the system, throw away the ability to charge the house batteries while you drive and use the engine driven alternator to charge only the chassis battery and run the chassis while you drive. If you're dry camping, your generator will top up the house battery(s) with four hours or less of run time.
So if you run the genny to power your microwave or convection oven you get a two-fer. Battery top off and hot food.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #59 – July 18, 2019, 12:34:32 pm

Quote from: Old Toolmaker – July 17, 2019, 09:45:51 pm

The other thought is to simplify.

You and Brett are of similar mind - he often advocates for the advantages of replacing the isolator with a simple manual switch. This would be the same basic setup as you describe, but with the added capability of combining both battery banks when desired.

Either your idea or Brett's would work fine, as long as the coach owner is willing to carefully monitor the SOC of both battery banks.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #60 – July 18, 2019, 12:51:21 pm

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – July 18, 2019, 12:34:32 pm

You and Brett are of similar mind - he often advocates for the advantages of replacing the isolator with a simple manual switch. This would be the same basic setup as you describe, but with the added capability of combining both battery banks when desired.
Either your idea or Brett's would work fine, as long as the coach owner is willing to carefully monitor the SOC of both battery banks.

With the twin voltmeters right in front of you, you cannot miss a reading that is different than it normally has. It's like an oil pressure gauge, gets your attention in a hurry. Since they draws so little current, I keep them switched on 24/7/365.

Isolator was a good idea at the time but like so many things on our coaches, just one more complex item to go wrong.

Pierce

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #61 – July 18, 2019, 02:52:37 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – July 18, 2019, 12:51:21 pm

Isolator was a good idea at the time but like so many things on our coaches, just one more complex item to go wrong.

Pierce

It's not that the original battery isolator is complex, far from it. But it throws the concept of junction voltage into the mix adding a source of confusion. Once you grasp the fact that the voltage coming out is going to be 0.7V less than what went into the diode no matter how high or low the current flow, you're on the path to true knowledge.

I'm faced with either figuring out the current path between my batteries, the power supply and the engine driven alternator or replacing the original isolator with a bi directional relay disconnect that senses the voltage on either side. But first I'm installing new drive belts. Just to see what happens.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #62 – July 18, 2019, 02:56:50 pm

Another issue with diode-based isolators is that they can take out the alternator if the "inlet" diode fails. Alternators will put you in time out if you ask them to feed an open circuit!

That is why there is a warning on marine battery switches: "STOP ENGINE BEFORE SWITCHING OFF": PERKO Inc. - Catalog - Battery Switches - Heavy Duty Battery Disconnect...

As has been well covered here many times, there are other options, ranging from virtually bomb-proof (simple marine ON-OFF switch with alternator B+ and chassis battery to one lug and house battery to the other lug), to solenoid-based isolators/combiners to a new diode-based isolator. The battery switch above is rated 450 amps continuous, 1200 amps intermittent-- no it will not raise a sweat in our application.

IMO, the critical part is properly diagnosing exactly what is wrong before throwing parts at it. Anyone who can tell you that the alternator is bad without checking the isolator is, well ............................... in no danger of being drafted to be a rocket scientist.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #63 – July 18, 2019, 03:24:15 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – July 18, 2019, 12:51:21 pm

Isolator was a good idea at the time but like so many things on our coaches, just one more complex item to go wrong.

I'm not gonna argue for or against isolators. I think every coach owner should equip their coach as they see fit. There are certainly MANY ways to skin the multi-bank battery charging cat, and they all have merits. As always, DWMYH

But I do have to say the OEM HEHR Powerline isolator that was factory installed on our old coach seemed to be remarkably robust. Last year, when I electively replaced it, it was still working fine after 25 years and 180,000 odd miles of service. Even mounted in the exposed location under the coach and behind the rear wheels, it was in great shape cosmetically after I scrubbed off years of grime. With no moving parts, and just 2 or 3 diodes completely embedded in potting resin and housed in a finned aluminum case, I would also have a hard time categorizing a classic isolator as a "complex item"...but that's just me.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #64 – July 18, 2019, 03:45:55 pm

Shall I again mention the industry standard auto combiner no loss no error system.

Tell me again why it would not be better?

Versus damage battery systems that are many times more expensive?

I am not that stubborn myself.

The manual requires no mistakes. This is auto /manual

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #65 – July 18, 2019, 04:18:30 pm

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – July 18, 2019, 03:24:15 pm

But I do have to say the OEM HEHR Powerline isolator that was factory installed on our old coach seemed to be remarkably robust. Last year, when I electively replaced it, it was still working fine after 25 years and 180,000 odd miles of service. Even mounted in the exposed location under the coach and behind the rear wheels, it was in great shape cosmetically after I scrubbed off years of grime. With no moving parts, and just 2 or 3 diodes completely embedded in potting resin and housed in a finned aluminum case, I would also have a hard time categorizing a classic isolator as a "complex item"...but that's just me.

While it has no moving parts and yours has been trouble free, when it does fail as ours did, it becomes complex as you can't just throw a knife switch and get back on the road. Diagnosing the problem and installing a replacement that may take a day or three are what I was getting at. Our coach's PO replaced theirs but incorrectly and was a real headache until it was sorted.

And yes, what was Foretravel thinking when they put that electrical panel under the coach where it would get all the road salt, etc.?They must have hired retired Lucas employees. I'm amazed anything works from that panel.

Pierce

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #66 – July 18, 2019, 04:40:19 pm

Cheaper shorter wiring runs. Beaver had the stuff in a bedroom eye height side cabinet. And a manual large switch from shore to gen. And a resettable flip breaker marine grade 12 volt panel in the same area.

For some functions beaver used auto reset circuit breakers on the firewall under the hood. Everything corrosion coated

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #67 – July 21, 2019, 03:16:20 pm

Latest, and Greatest! Been in an RV Park, here in Stratton CO., for exactly a week, now! The Temps have made it Impossible, (101-106) until today, to actually go out and try and troubleshoot this! The Isolator is located on the Frame, in the Left Wheel Well, and I cannot reach it effectively to get ANY reading whatsoever! This Morning, the Chassis Batteries depleted to 11 Volts in a weeks time, plugged in to Shore Power. I purposely disconnected the Coach batteries, all because of the Charging @ 17-19Vdc, going on! I did not want to blow them up! I charged the Starting batteries up, and was able to Start the coach. It's been running for about an hour, and the Dash Gauge, still reads 11 Volts of Charge. So about 30 Minutes ago, I put the Generator on, and now reading 12.7V Chassis Batteries, and 14.3V House Batteries.

I have exhausted any way of getting it troubleshot, for sure, here, being so remote, so I am going to roll, with my fingers crossed, that the Charge doesn't go back up to 17-19Vdc.

I do have a Rebuilt Alternator, which crossed to a Leece Neville 160 AMP, at NAPA, but I am keeping the Hehr/Prestolite, PN# 25-15 ($60.00 Core!!!) 190 AMP, and try and rebuild it, or get it rebuilt? I have rebuilt Alternators in the past, but cannot find a new Regulator for it, nor a Rebuild kit? If anyone has a resource for it, please post it up?

If, at this point, the system starts going all squirrelly on me again, I will tie the Isolator wires all together, and change out the Alternator I have too! The reason, I do not want to do so, is if ANYTHING else is in the System, causing an Issue, I do not want to burn up a $500.00 Alternator! I will keep this one as a Spare anyway, for future issues!

Thanks all for your Patience with me! This past week has been really hard, as we didn't know when we'd get out of here? I am going to chance it all, and head East, in a few hours, or rest, and leave early tomorrow! With the Generator Running!

I promised the DW, I will learn where every wire goes, what should do what, and also fix all the wires that the 7 Mice I killed at the beginning of this trip caused! CB #1 has not worked, for 8 months now, because of them, and other small issues arose from those critters as well! We now use 1/4 Pieces of Irish Spring Soap, throughout the coach, in Lower Storage Compartments, everywhere, throughout the coach, and have not had an issue since! I know there is a Wire they ate that caused that issue!

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #68 – July 21, 2019, 03:32:34 pm

I want to add, it did not seem to be charging the DC Circuit, while Plugged into Shore Power, and we refrained from using it the whole week, too! But now seems to be charging it on the Genny? That's truly what does not add up to me, and why I am hesitating Changing the Alternator! The DW, wants to wait until Tomorrow, now to shove off, as I have been out trying to figure this all out, before braving another possible Breakdown, over this! BTW, NAPA only had a 120 AMP Isolator, and I'd want at least a 200 AMP model, to replace this one!

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #69 – July 21, 2019, 04:06:09 pm

1/4 pieces of Irish Spring? I use 2 or more bars in each bay. Love that smell😁

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #70 – July 21, 2019, 06:24:34 pm

Quote from: RetiredGuns – July 21, 2019, 03:32:34 pm

I want to add, it did not seem to be charging the DC Circuit, while Plugged into Shore Power, and we refrained from using it the whole week, too! But now seems to be charging it on the Genny? That's truly what does not add up to me, and why I am hesitating Changing the Alternator! The DW, wants to wait until Tomorrow, now to shove off, as I have been out trying to figure this all out, before braving another possible Breakdown, over this! BTW, NAPA only had a 120 AMP Isolator, and I'd want at least a 200 AMP model, to replace this one!

You don't *NEED* and isolator. All the isolator is there for is to keep you from discharging your chassis battery when you leave your reading lamp on all night.

If your Xantrex is charging when on the generator but not while on shore power, check to see if the AC is making it to the Xantrex while on shore power. You could have a bad contact in the change over relay.

And FWIW and not being snarky, are you certain you're measuring 17-19 VDC and not 17-19 millivolts?

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #71 – July 21, 2019, 07:40:13 pm

To Retired Guns when you are driving without the generator. Do you have the inverter turned on? The reason I ask is If the inverter is on then that would keep your refrigerator from switching to gas and to power the ac part of the refrigerator takes a lot of 12 volt power.

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #72 – July 22, 2019, 01:25:19 am

Quote from: Old Toolmaker – July 21, 2019, 06:24:34 pm

You don't *NEED* and isolator. All the isolator is there for is to keep you from discharging your chassis battery when you leave your reading lamp on all night.

If your Xantrex is charging when on the generator but not while on shore power, check to see if the AC is making it to the Xantrex while on shore power. You could have a bad contact in the change over relay.

And FWIW and not being snarky, are you certain you're measuring 17-19 VDC and not 17-19 millivolts?

I took the front panel off the Bottom and did not detect incoming AC, onshore Power. Are you referring to the ATS, under the Bed, left side? I swear, I should have changed that out, a while back, suspecting that to be an issue, than determined it was not! I physically checked it this time, seemed OK, but will actually clean the Contacts, with 1000 Grit, maybe? Whatever I seemed to mess with, fixed it....temporarily, I am sure! The Alternator still isn't charging over maybe 11 Volts, but I am keeping the Genny running while rolling anyway! Need the Air Conditioning!

I wish it was 17-18 Millivolts, Shore an Genny power, first seemed to draw power, then changed to Overcharging! The Gremlins galore have kept me busy, without a doubt! Never a Dull Moment on this trip, for sure!

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #73 – July 22, 2019, 01:33:21 am

Quote from: red tractor – July 21, 2019, 07:40:13 pm

To Retired Guns when you are driving without the generator. Do you have the inverter turned on? The reason I ask is If the inverter is on then that would keep your refrigerator from switching to gas and to power the ac part of the refrigerator takes a lot of 12 volt power.

Actually, I believe I do! True, but on or off, the Alternator may still be toast! As said I want to ring out all the wires, and may be investing in what we call a Megger. (Meg Ohm Meter) It can locate Shorts, Opens, and High Resistance in wires! Great Tool, just don't know anyone with one to rent? The Mice did a Number on me, and that is the only device that can actually tell me what and where the damage is!

Re: Batteries Discharging all 3 Modes, what is in common?

Reply #74 – July 22, 2019, 07:22:40 am

Generator repair shops will have a megger.

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