Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

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Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

January 10, 2020, 12:05:54 am

Hannah and I are in Floral City, FL until the middle of February after that we'll be making our way to Hungry Horse Montana where I will be workamping for the summer. We'll be making several stops on the way but from here to there it's about 2,650 miles and I want to have the coach prepared as much as possible for the journey.

I changed the oil a couple months ago while we were in Pennsylvania and will be changing it again once we get to Oklahoma. I plan on changing the fuel filter and water separator at the same time. The generator could probably use a service also even though it only has like 3 hours on it.

We had a full service done at MOT last year and I plan to go through the invoice and see what all was done but I wanted to ask what needs to be done for regular service and to make sure we're prepared for the trip.

The other thing I was wondering about was updating our house batteries so that we could possibly dry camp for a few days or maybe even a week at a time on our way up there. Our house batteries are only two years old but they're some no-name lead acid 8Ds that haven't been properly used or maintained over that time. They still work but they're leaky and I have no way of monitoring or measuring their current state.

Our coach has the factory installed Taytronics 1500 watt inverter and switch panel that still works fine but it doesn't offer any battery monitoring. We also have the original 7.5amp converter/charger in the basement by the fresh water tank that functions also.

I try reading through posts about people's solar and battery systems but it doesn't take long for my head to start spinning. It all seems very complicated to me and for some reason insanely high discharge rate of batteries if they're shorted or improperly installed makes me nervous to mess with them.

I would like to update our batteries and add some sort of monitoring for them but don't know if that would be fairly easy and relatively inexpensive to do or if the entire system needs to be upgraded at the same time.

Any advice on either subject would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #1 – January 10, 2020, 12:33:01 am

Several members have bought 8d AGM's at O'Reilly's I'm sure they can give more information. That would be the main thing to do. You could upgrade your inverter at this time and add solar later if you want to go that way. Don't remember any posts about solar shorting out batteries. Over discharging is the big killer. A new inverter would have a panel telling you voltage, and with new batteries you keep them over 12.2 to keep them longer.

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #2 – January 10, 2020, 12:58:01 am

Tyler, I recommend calling AM solar. They put in my system, both lithium as well as solar. You can DIY it but it can be complicated to the uninitiated. But you first have to know what it is you need. So start with a energy audit. Knowing how much energy you use per day in the coach and how many days you need that between recharges will go a long way I'm telling you how much you need to spend. If you can afford it, I highly recommend going with lithium ion batteries, if you're going to keep the coach for a while. It's not it doesn't make sense to invest that kind of money. Either way good quality batteries in my opinion is money well spent. There is a lot of information on these forums though and other places on the internet. But I understand what you're saying about your head spinning. Too much information can sometimes be a detriment.

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #3 – January 10, 2020, 06:52:26 am

Please understand, my recommendations are based on your short post, my recommendations are based on a lot of years with rvs, solar, dry camping and being plugged in. I know not how long you plan to use this rv, you may not either. So being cautious may be prudent.

So here goes. I would start out with an upgrade to your inverter/charging system. This will give you both a proper charger, a sine wave inverter, with an automatic transfer switch for under $800. You do not want to destroy new batteries, so I would start with this upgrade.

Most important, continue having fun. You are on the right track to do maintenance to help with not having as many issues on your first long trip. The gen service is important as it sounds like you may be depending on it.

The most bang for the dollar would be a:
https://www.donrowe.com/mobile/product.aspx?ProductCode=817-2080&404;http://www.donrowe.com:80/Xantrex-817-2080-Freedom-XC-2000-Inverter-Charger-p/817-2080.htm=

Second choice;
http://www.donrowe.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=815-2012

Oriellys will change out your batteries with no labor charge, they offer 10% discount to military. It was also posted on this forum they give a discount to FMCA members, that I do not know about.
https://www.oreillyauto.com/search/2002/isuzu/rodeo?q=Agm+agm8d

Now you need a battery moniter. Easy to do complete install, mounting display next to your battery until you can run it inside. This is true because you will end up using the bluetooth to program the 712 and see its readouts, works in iPhone and Android.. I highly recommend the Victron 712.
https://youtu.be/tV055vmZgvY

Solar, I would start out with the most that fits your budget. For ten years I had only 150 watts, made it work with dry camping, running gen to get by every other day for a couple hours, had 100 amp charger with two agm 8Ds.

With todays solar that gives you more for your dollar, I would start out with 600 watts with a good controller that would take you to 1200,1400, or 1800 in the future, depending again on your needs and budget. Allot of posts here with diy systems and paid for systems, including mine on my current FT, going from 560 watts, to 1200, to 1800. Good advise is watching the AMsolar videos on installation and equipment. Many here are happy with their experience with AMsolar and Bay Marine in San Diego. It is your dollars, do your research, what works for one, may not work for you. This is true, as your needs will vary.

Best advise I've received here on the forum has been from Roger's posts. I've taken his advise, still taking measurements with the Victron 712 to understand my needs and use. After years of rving we have gone from mostly dry camping to mostly plugged in, so yes, I'm still collecting data on my use and to get maximum life from my Oriellys 8Ds installed earlier this year.

A good place to start is with some beginner instructional informatin videos from Will Prowse and, or, AMSolar. These start with the basics of volts, amps, wattsystem a very simple solar system. These will help you understand easier the AMSolar videos.
https://youtu.be/cX4s-bxn4fs

https://youtu.be/uobUwjCLfok

and....these are some well made instructional videos from AMSolar.
Solar Panel DIY Installation Help & RV Solar Power Setup | AM Solar

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #4 – January 10, 2020, 10:14:24 am

The Soft Boulders wrote:

"The other thing I was wondering about was updating our house batteries so that we could possibly dry camp for a few days or maybe even a week at a time on our way up there. Our house batteries are only two years old but they're some no-name lead acid 8Ds that haven't been properly used or maintained over that time. They still work but they're leaky and I have no way of monitoring or measuring their current state."

"Leaky" is an ambiguous term. Are they leaking electrolyte? Or are they leaking electrons? In an early Russian to English translation of the Ural motorcycle manual a warning was translated as "A great many electrons are stored in the battery. Sudden release could be dangerous."

Knowledge is power, so back to basics. Lead-acid batteries can be broken into two different classes, starting lighting and ignition or deep cycle. True deep cycle batteries are made with solid lead plates and their battery case leaves plenty of depth for the lead oxide that is shed during cycling to accumulate without shorting the bottoms of the plates together. These batteries cannot deliver very many electrons at once, they can't deliver starting current.

Now starting lighting and ignition batteries are made with lead plates shaped more light window screens. The openings are filled with a lead oxide paste and plate separators help keep the paste in place. These batteries can deliver the high current necessary for engine starting. These batteries are intended to be kept fully charged. Fully discharging these batteries causes the plates to shed the lead oxide causing a loss of total capacity and once the lead oxide reaches the bottom of the plates, rapid self discharge.

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #5 – January 10, 2020, 10:40:50 am

If you choose to go the Oriellys route, make sure you get the ones with the grey case, black top, as these AGMs are made by East Penn and have served many on the forum for years if properly taken care of as explained above.

Make sure to order the ones with the correct posts as they offer three different types. Mine had the automotive round type posts.

Although Oriellys does not charge to switch out the 8Ds, do not trust completely their installation, as they are not just battery people, primarily they are auto parts counter folks.

I had to replace all the military type fasteners as they could easily be turned on the posts after their installation I replaced all six, as I have three 8Ds. Do your research, you may find a better price, however these are the right ones, and they may com in negative and positive also.
Military Ordinance Style Battery Terminal Connector Adapter Kit (Pair) Amazon.com: Military Ordinance Style Battery Terminal Connector Adapter Kit...

The Oriely battery will look similar to the following, just a different brand by East Penn. The 8D specifications are identical as far as cca, ah, etc.

INTIMIDATOR AGM BATTERIES
The Intimidator AGM battery series won't have any trouble meeting marine needs, from starting performance to a boatload of trolling and accessory power.
Intimidator Heavy-Duty AGM 4D 8D (1903) - East Penn Manufacturing

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #6 – January 10, 2020, 11:02:44 am

Quote from: Old Toolmaker – January 10, 2020, 10:14:24 am

"Leaky" is an ambiguous term. Are they leaking electrolyte? Or are they leaking electrons? In an early Russian to English translation of the Ural motorcycle manual a warning was translated as "A great many electrons are stored in the battery. Sudden release could be dangerous."

It's a tough crowd here, I ran in to a similar issue with an "ambiguous" term on another one of my posts. I don't know if the batteries are leaking electrolytes or electrons, I just know they're leaking fluid from the top of them.

As far as the old Russian translation goes it could've been a Constance Garnett translation which some literary scholars have complained are outdated by contemporary standards. She translated mostly Russian authors such as Tolstoy, Herzen and Dostoyevsky but may have also dabbled in motorcycle manuals. Haha

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #7 – January 10, 2020, 11:19:51 am

Maybe we're just not ready to upgrade our battery system. I was mainly trying to find a way to save us some money by dry camping on our way to Montana. We've spent all we're really going to on the coach as far as upgrades and comfort.

If we had another coach things would be different but as for now I'm not interested in solar panels or expensive chargers and whatnot. I like the idea of being able to run the generator for a couple hours per day to charge the batteries but i don't think the factory installed 7.5 amp charger is going to allow that.

As far as electricity consumption, we really don't use all that much because all of our lights are LED and we can run the refrigerator and furnace off of propane if need be. Other than using a laptop during the day for Hanna's job and in the evening for shows we don't use much electricity.

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #8 – January 10, 2020, 11:49:27 am

Your problem with your batteries leaking may only be from your charger overcharging them. You should have a three stage charger and after the charging been completed, check voltage after a couple of hours. Should be around 12.7 volts. Drive to a auto parts store and have them load check the battery.

Our solar installation is about 10 years old and working as well as the day I installed it. It's not hard to do it yourself, just takes checking others installation and ordering some parts. As you can see in our old posts, our total cost including four excellent panels and the #1 rated controller was only $1400. I got a deal on batteries so they only added under $200 but you have to be resourceful and check CL and FB Marketplace for the deals. I paid list for the controller and wires, etc. but panels can be only $0.33/watt if you watch the ads.

Anyone can make the installation. It's not rocket science but some people and shops don't know what they are doing so you have to separate the good from the bad. I've seen first hand, members that did a first rate job with outstanding results. Get a knowledgeable friend to give you a hand.

Pierce

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #9 – January 10, 2020, 01:03:35 pm

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – January 10, 2020, 11:19:51 am

If we had another coach things would be different but as for now I'm not interested in solar panels or expensive chargers and whatnot. I like the idea of being able to run the generator for a couple hours per day to charge the batteries but i don't think the factory installed 7.5 amp charger is going to allow that.

As far as electricity consumption, we really don't use all that much because all of our lights are LED and we can run the refrigerator and furnace off of propane if need be. Other than using a laptop during the day for Hanna's job and in the evening for shows we don't use much electricity.

Progressive Dynamics' 9200 series of 3-stage battery chargers also double as 12 VDC power supplies. I run a 9260, with their Charge Wizard Pendent for a pair of 8-D batteries. When dry camping for multiple days, when I'm using the generator I push the button on the Charge Wizard to set the 9260 in "Bulk" mode, 14.4 VDC. The batteries will accept current measured in amperes at whatever rate they need up to the full 60 amp output of the charger.

If you're connected to shore power with low batteries the 9260 will bulk charge for 4 hours, then drop back to an "absorption" charge of 13.6 VDC for about 36 hours then settle in at "float" of 13.2 VDC. Just enough electrical pressure to prevent the battery from self discharging.

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #10 – January 10, 2020, 01:08:20 pm

Alot of good advice here from others, Pierce, and the Old Toolmaker above. I bought my last two 300 watt panels, two months ago, off a local CraigsL ad, delivered to my door, by him for for $330, total. I mounted in one day using AMSolar brackets and double sided 3m tape.

I like Old Toolmaker recommendation, I once used the 9280 that follows, myself. It is less than half the price of the Xantrex XC 2000, and may meet all your needs. I just find the Xantrex inverter/charger with sine wave inverter, I listed above, a must have for me, as we use the microwave almost every day, not for long, to heat water and reheat food. That being said, maybe you do not. The sine wave inverter is needed to use full capacity of your microwave, also extends life of MW., also does a better job charging cell phones, laptops, etc, on AC.

Progressive Dynamics PD9280V Inteli-Power 9200 Series Converter/Charger with Charge Wizard - 80 Amp is a quality unit with a 80 amp charger, however, for me, not as user adjustable as the Xantrex XC 2000 and no sine wave inverter.

Amazon.com: Progressive Dynamics PD9280V Inteli-Power 9200 Series Converter/C...

Sounds like a good plan Tyler, I usually recommend first useing your rv and monitor what you have, it has gotten this far, may be ok. Continue your research, and learn, for when you decide to improve something, you're more likely to be happy with your choice.

My wife once criticized what I said, thinking I was telling people I lie. "Know that half of what you are told is wrong, including from me. Thou my advice is based on years of rv experience from myself and others, still your experience may be different. It is your $$$, not the guys giving you advice. You write the check, do your research, until you feel your needs are being met."

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #11 – January 10, 2020, 01:48:13 pm

I really appreciate everyone's feed back and their opinions.

I don't know if we'll go through with any upgrades but I'm going to start by checking our current batteries and having them load tested as suggested.

Is it safe to disconnect the batteries while we're on shore power? Should I at least unplug the charger that runs constantly?

We have the 1500W inverter behind the entry stairs, the charger/converter in the one bay, a manual transfer switch under the bed and the control panel in the kitchen: If we were to start with something like the Xantrex inverter/charger would that replace all four of those components?

That's pretty awesome if so but it's also a lot of difficult to access wiring involved to combine the four into one.

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #12 – January 10, 2020, 02:33:44 pm

Yes, the Xanrex XC2000 would replace all. You would just have two ATSs, the FT ATS and another backing up by the internal replacement
Xantrex XC2000 inverter/charger. You would gain by getting a better charger, and sine wave inverter designed for a rv.

I believe you might appreciate this. It looks like you have allready a 75 amp, not7.5 amp charger, as original equipment.

1993 U280 Foretravel Specifications

I would start out by finding out what you have. Do you have the original manuals and schematics?Please personal message me pictures of your current equipment and I'll be glad to assist.

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #13 – January 10, 2020, 03:01:10 pm

Quote from: Jack Lewis – January 10, 2020, 02:33:44 pm

Yes, the Xanrex XC2000 would replace all. You would have the FT ATS and it is backed up by the internal to the inverter/charger ATS.

When you said: "Our coach has the factory installed Taytronics 1500 watt inverter and switch panel that still works fine but it doesn't offer any battery monitoring." Did you mean Tectronics? Do you have the owners manual?

We have an ATS under the bed that switches between generator and shore power but we also have a manual transfer switch that is controlled by the inverter panel. We flip the swith on the panel to select which circuit we want to use.

It is a Taytronics 1500 watt inverter and switch panel.

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #14 – January 10, 2020, 03:14:40 pm

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – January 10, 2020, 03:01:10 pm

It is a Taytronics 1500 watt inverter and switch panel.

We had that same inverter and control panel on our coach when we bought it. We eventually replaced both the inverter and the separate battery charger/converter with a Magnum MS2812 inverter/charger. The Magnum inverter has its own dedicated control panel. Since the original inverter control panel was of no further use, I repurposed it into a place to mount other controls. See thread linked below (Reply #9):

Atwood Hydro Flame Thermostat Relocation

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #15 – January 10, 2020, 03:33:10 pm

As far as wiring your new inverter/charger, you will have a 120v line in from your current automatic transfer switch and a 120V line going out to your 120V breaker box. Simple for an electrician, you need to judge your own skills. Caution as this is 120V. There will also be a large pair of neg and positive 12V wires going out to the batteries. Hopefully you can just reuse the 12V wires going from your old inv/charge to the batteries. You will have to check lenghth and gauge size. You will also want a remote panel to turn the unit you choose on and off. Often it is not included, on the XC2000, I believe it is. Just research before buying.

The new inverter charger may come with both an owners manual, and an install manual. You should talk to the company you buy it from about install. Their before sale info will give you an idea of their after sale service.

This link to the mfg Xantrex has links to all their info on this product and three worthwhile videos.
http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/inverter-chargers/freedom-xc.aspx

https://www.donrowe.com/mobile/product.aspx?ProductCode=817-2080&404;http://www.donrowe.com:80/Xantrex-817-2080-Freedom-XC-2000-Inverter-Charger-p/817-2080.htm?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0JGa0e_55gIVFWKGCh3qawu0EAAYASAAEgJMhfD_BwE

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #16 – January 10, 2020, 05:31:53 pm

After late 1997 all Foretravel coaches came with inverters that can if a optional battery temp management is hooked up that auto adjust the charging voltages per the temp at the batteries, 14.4 can be 1 volt high or more in desert hot weather.

Over and undercharging can drastically shorten battery life. Plus reduce capacity prematurely.

So a full wave inverter and adding a battery temp management hookup(easy) will give the best, longest life to a set of batteries.

We use a Magnum sw2812 and a me-arc control panel. The upgraded panel does not limit charging to timing. Measures the batteries charging rates and adjusts as needed

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #17 – January 10, 2020, 05:58:27 pm

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – January 10, 2020, 03:14:40 pm

We had that same inverter and control panel on our coach when we bought it. We eventually replaced both the inverter and the separate battery charger/converter with a Magnum MS2812 inverter/charger. The Magnum inverter has its own dedicated control panel. Since the original inverter control panel was of no further use, I repurposed it into a place to mount other controls. See thread linked below (Reply #9):

Atwood Hydro Flame Thermostat Relocation

That's a good use of that space, our furnace thermostat is located by the couch next to the AC thermostat.

Did you guys have the converter/charger in the bay next to the outside sink and water hookups?

Did you place your new inverter in the same place as the old one? We'd have to run some heavy gauge wire to the batteries if we put it in under the stairs where ours is located.

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #18 – January 10, 2020, 06:00:40 pm

Quote from: Jack Lewis – January 10, 2020, 02:33:44 pm

I believe you might appreciate this. It looks like you have allready a 75 amp, not7.5 amp charger, as original equipment.

That would be nice and if thats the case we might not have to upgrade? I'll check take pics when we get home.

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #19 – January 10, 2020, 06:10:49 pm

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – January 10, 2020, 06:00:40 pm

That would be nice and if thats the case we might not have to upgrade? I'll check take pics when we get home.

Take the photographs, I don't know when the switching mode power supplies were introduced. What *I think* you have there is a harmonically regulated transformer, aka, a good way to boil batteries.

I do know the Progressive Dynamics 9200 series can be run as a power supply without a battery connected. You're original equipment Magnatek not so much so.

Regarding replacing your OE you can always do it once and do it right but do the math for your most powerful appliances.

A 1500W microwave will draw around current from the battery at the rate of 120 amperes.

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #20 – January 10, 2020, 08:51:20 pm

The first and most important thing to do is get rid of that silver converter that changes your batteries as it will for sure overcharge them and that is why you are seeing liquid on top of the batteries. You probably have to add water quite often as well. That converter doesn't quit charging. Like as has been previously stated probably replace that converter and the inverter with a new inverter that also charges the batteries.

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #21 – January 10, 2020, 09:51:33 pm

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – January 10, 2020, 05:58:27 pm

Did you guys have the converter/charger in the bay next to the outside sink and water hookups?
Did you place your new inverter in the same place as the old one?

Our original inverter was mounted under the steps, just like yours. Our original charger/converter was mounted on the bay wall next to the main DC breaker panel (the one with the white fiberglass cover). See 1st photo below.

I wanted to move the new inverter closer to the coach batteries, so I had it mounted on the bay wall in the place vacated by the old charger.
See 2nd photo below.

If you are interested, link below to our time spent at AM Solar having our electrical system upgraded.

PV System, Installation, at AM Solar

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #22 – January 10, 2020, 10:12:14 pm

This is the converter charger in the coach now. The picture will not upload but it is a Magnetek model TU-775-2 and it says 75 amps at 12v DC, 14.5 amps at 120v AC and an average charge rate of 7.5 amps.

Is this the one that boils batteries? As stated above it never shuts off.

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #23 – January 10, 2020, 10:19:35 pm

Quote from: The Soft Boulders – January 10, 2020, 10:12:14 pm

This is the converter charger in the coach now. The picture will not upload but it is a Magnetek model TU-775-2 and it says 75 amps at 12v DC, 14.5 amps at 120v AC and an average charge rate of 7.5 amps.

Is this the one that boils batteries? As stated above it never shuts off.

Not sure what "average charge rate is". To maintain a constant voltage, amps could vary from 75 down to just above 0. But even 1 amp 24/7 at too high a voltage can overcharge batteries.

Basically, this is a very old technology "stupid" charger. Modern 3 stage smart chargers do a much better job of charging quickly and not overcharging the batteries.

If constant voltage can be reduced to mid 13's it should not boil the batteries, though, being "stupid" will do a less than stellar job of quickly charging the batteries.

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #24 – January 11, 2020, 05:07:36 am

You would be wise to upgrade to a "smart" charger if you choose not to dump money into the rv. A $200 smart charger from progressive dynamics will save you huge money replacing batteries that the magnetek is overcharging.

Spending a little more for a new combo inverter/charger would replace the taytronics antique as well and really open you up to better living while dry camping. I upgraded mine to a programmable true sine wave inverter with smart charger and my AGM batteries are going on six years and still deliver acceptable performance and I am rarely hooked to a power pole. I keep hoping these will finally die so I can get lithiums!

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