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Topic: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade  (Read 3898 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #100
That manual transfer switch looks like a nice option, but after all we'll have invested idk if we can swing another $300.
The original ATS (if working properly) is fine for its intended purpose - no reason to replace it.

We removed our original ATS was because of the noise it made.  Some people are more sensitive to certain types of noise.  My wife and I seem to be in the sub-group that is bothered by electronic noise of a certain frequency.  The ATS would drive us crazy at night when it was otherwise very quiet in the coach.  Other people might not hear it at all.  Just one of those things.

And, for those who might not like the noisy OEM ATS but still desire the automatic function, they make a type of ATS with a DC powered coil, which is supposedly less noisy.  I didn't bother to try one of those...just moved straight to the manual switch.  Works well for us.

Automatic Surge Protected Transfer Switch
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #101
Both east penn and lifeline  battery makers state their  batteries they make require a temp controlled charger.  Smart and temp controlled.  You will damage and wear the batteries much faster without either one. Double? Battery life.  Unless your batteries are always at 77 degrees your charging voltage is incorrect
The xantrex inverter/charger that we are considering does not offer a charge rate that is battery temperature controlled.  Our batteries are housed in a frame with no sides and exposed to the elements.  The temperature can change quite a bit during the day and at night and I'm concerned about the charging abilities of the xantrex and the effect on our batteries. 

Hannah and Tyler Phillips
1993 U280 Grand Villa AKA Pearl
Basement Air
Cummins 6CT8.3
Build Number 4196

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #102
But,  I would be surprised if in the "set up" which may even be actual dip switches you can not choose "temperature range" so the charge algorithms are close. 

Check in your Xantrex owners manual.  Earliest models, as I recall, had the dip switches on the inverter itself, then on the back of the remote, then the remote became programmable from the front.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #103
The original ATS (if working properly) is fine for its intended purpose - no reason to replace it.

Automatic Surge Protected Transfer Switch

We left our original ATS in also.  The automatic transfer switch in the Xantrex converter/charger works fine with the original FT ATS.

The dc coil ATS Chuck gave a link to is the one to get, if you ever have to replace yours.

Glad you have grasped the installation.  A good diagram for a basic marine or rv installation is on page 12 and 36 of your install manual for the XC2000.
97 U295 40, Build #5040, 6C8.3 325 HP
Oregon Continuous Traveler
Samsung Residential #RF20HFENBSR,
Xantrex SW2012, (3)AGM8D Hse, (2)AGM Grp24 Eng, Victron BMV-712, 1800w Solar 4 LG & 2 Sunpower
Extreme Full Body Pt w/hdlmps, new furn/floor, 4 down Lexus 2004 GX470 AWD curb weight 4,740 lbs
Prev: 1990 Barth, 10L 300 2 yrs; 91&92 Monaco Signature, 10 yrs, 10L C 300 &  6C8.3 300; 1997 ForeT 6C8.3 325 since May 2017.  Employed by Guaranty RV 14+ yrs.  Former VW New Car Dlr/Service Dlr, Sales Mgr, Rv Sales, and Service Adviser from 1968-2017
"Don't criticize what you can't understand" Bob Dylan

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #104
Dip switch adjustable charging voltages would obviously involve constant resetting.  Hence the last 20+ years of Foretravel production using a battery temp controlled charging setup.  Wrong inverter it would seem?
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #105
As I recall (Tyler, please confirm from your Xantrex manual) you can use the dip switches to choose warm (over 80 degrees F) or cool (under 80 degrees F).

Agree, not as precise as wider range of temperature input to charging algorithms, but absolutely better than none.  And, then change it with the seasons-- likely only twice a year.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #106

As Wolf10 says above, you will have no worry of ruining your batteries, from your Xantrex Freedom XC2000 inverter/charger. This will be true as long as you install properly. Change settings first to battery type and save, next go to custom battery type setting, change ah capacity to correct one, change to and set absorption at 14.3, set float at 13.3, set equalize to off, set to proper battery temperature cold setting, under 40 degrees, warm, 41 to 89, or hot setting, 90 and above, happy travels.

I prefer these conservative settings of Lifeline for all AGM batteries, even Oreillys East Penn AGM8Ds like I have.

You have 3 settings, cold, warm, and hot from the panel that comes on the XC2000. You will have completely adjustable voltage parameters with the XC2000 in addition to all the other features with smart 80 amp charger, built in ATS, load share, AC passthrough, etc.  For example if you have the unit set for warm, 77 >degrees, 14.3 absorption charge and 13.3 float charge as Lifeline recommends for their AGMs, at 120 degrees (hot) correction will be approx 13.87 (down 0.043v from 14.3) and at 50 degrees (cold), correction will be approx 14.72 volts (up 0.042v from 14.3),  Xantrex manual on page 48 says selecting cold from warm will change voltage charge up by 0.4 volts, selecting hot to cold, charge voltage, up 0.8 volts.  See following chart from Lifeline manual.  These Xantrex settings go along with Lifelines information in the chart below.  Xantrex support confirmed today that at 40 degrees and below your setting should be cold, 41 to 89 degrees setting should be warm, 90 degrees and over setting should be hot, and you will not ruin your batteries. If the extremes are your constant norm (I would recommend moving, lol), just modify your absorption and float voltage setting up or down by the chart below to reflect these extremes.

From Lifeline manual.
Shared album - John Lewis - Google Photos

These are not set by dip switches, they are set by the remote panel that is available for $65.13 with 25' cable, or the panel on the unit itself by buttons. With an extention cable easily running to the interior, you will be able to adjust the settings from inside, with the following remote (or on the unit itself). So....yes, for less than $66 additional you will have your remote panel. For another approx $195, a great BMS in the Victron 712, with battery temperature and all the other information you will need monitor your batteries. Most all of us have a budget, so I understand that you may want to install the inverter by itself and do the $300 info panels next year, if your budget and plans dictate.

$65
Xantrex Freedom X/Xc Remote Panel W/25' Cable Amazon.com: Xantrex Freedom X/Xc Remote Panel W/25' Cable: Car Electronics

$646
Xantrex Freedom XC 2000 817-2080  Amazon.com: Xantrex Freedom XC 2000 817-2080 Power Inverter: Automotive

This short 3 min video covers the features pretty
thorough and fast.
https://youtu.be/h2Aqa7jqRfQ

If you want to know the temperature of your battery, this is easily available on your phone with the Victron 712 battery moniter system, for approx $195, again, I suggest this if you want to monitor battery temperature, ah in and out usage, state of charge, and you are interested in extending the life of your batteries.  That is with budget and needs balanced.

$195
Victron BMV-712 Battery Monitor Amazon.com: Victron BMV-712 Battery Monitor: Electronics

Feature Settings in Configuration Mode
Audible Alarm    (Audible),  (Mute) The alarm beeps once every five seconds. Battery Type    (Flooded),  (AGM),  (Gel),  (Custom)  (LiFePO4) The use of  (LiFePO4) as a battery type requires a compatible BMS. See page vi for safety warning instructions. Battery Temperature    (Cold),  (Warm),  (Hot) Selecting Cold from Warm will increase charger voltage by 0.4V. Selecting Cold from Hot will increase charger voltage by 0.8V. Custom Absorption Voltage  . . to . The voltage setting value can be adjusted by 0.1 increments. Available only when custom battery type is selected. Custom Float Voltage  . . to . Charger Current (Freedom XC 2000)    to  The current setting value can be adjusted by 5A increments. Charger Current (Freedom XC 1000)    to  Charger Ignition Control    (OFF),  (Auto-ON) When set to  (Auto-ON), the charger operates only in tandem with the vehicle's ignition circuit. Equalize Charging for Flooded Battery    (enable),  (disable) This setting is only available when Flooded battery type is selected. It allows only one hour of equalize charging once. AC Input Breaker for Load Share    to  The load share feature prioritizes the AC load by reducing the charge current in order to maintain the total input current to less than the load share setting. Setting Name Setting Number Default Value Range of Values Description
Page 48 Freedom XC Owner's Guide

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97 U295 40, Build #5040, 6C8.3 325 HP
Oregon Continuous Traveler
Samsung Residential #RF20HFENBSR,
Xantrex SW2012, (3)AGM8D Hse, (2)AGM Grp24 Eng, Victron BMV-712, 1800w Solar 4 LG & 2 Sunpower
Extreme Full Body Pt w/hdlmps, new furn/floor, 4 down Lexus 2004 GX470 AWD curb weight 4,740 lbs
Prev: 1990 Barth, 10L 300 2 yrs; 91&92 Monaco Signature, 10 yrs, 10L C 300 &  6C8.3 300; 1997 ForeT 6C8.3 325 since May 2017.  Employed by Guaranty RV 14+ yrs.  Former VW New Car Dlr/Service Dlr, Sales Mgr, Rv Sales, and Service Adviser from 1968-2017
"Don't criticize what you can't understand" Bob Dylan

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #107
Got a big delivery of goodies today! 

Xantrex inverter
Victron 712 Smart monitor w/temp sensor
AC Infinity Airplate fan system with Thermal trigger (for ventilation/cooling of compartment)
TEMCo lug crimper for 4/0 cable
Cable cutters for 4/0 cable
Military battery terminals
4/0 terminal ends
And 4/0 heat shrink
Waiting on the 3 inch vent covers to come in

Still need to get the batteries and a small sub panel and breakers but we're just about ready to go.

Getting pretty excited, I think it's going to be a trick setup once it's all done.  Plus I got to buy some new tools which is one of my favorite parts of new projects!  :)
Hannah and Tyler Phillips
1993 U280 Grand Villa AKA Pearl
Basement Air
Cummins 6CT8.3
Build Number 4196

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #108
Got a big delivery of goodies today! 

Still need to get the batteries and a small sub panel and breakers but we're just about ready to go.

Getting pretty excited, I think it's going to be a trick setup once it's all done.  Plus I got to buy some new tools which is one of my favorite parts of new projects!  :)

Wooo Hooo!  Go Big or Go Home!

You had a problem.  You needed a solution.  You found a solution.  You chose to implement that solution.

Congratulations.

Good for you, because in this day an age we need electricity.  As I sit here with my central heat, fluorescent lights, television(s) and Apple laptop(s).
1992 Foretravel Grand Villa
U225 SBID Build No. 4134
1986 Rockwood Driftwood
1968 S.I.A.T.A. Spring
1962 Studebaker Lark
1986 Honda VF700C
1983 Honda VF750C
Charlie, the Dog was broken out of jail 24 Oct 2023
N1RPN
AA1OH (H)e who must be obeyed.

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #109
Got everything installed and it's working excellent!  I'm pretty pleased with how it turned out. 

Now for the new batteries, ours are toast. 
Hannah and Tyler Phillips
1993 U280 Grand Villa AKA Pearl
Basement Air
Cummins 6CT8.3
Build Number 4196

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #110
For anyone that's going to be crimping large gauge wire I recommend that TEMCo crimper.  It's pretty beefy but it works super slick.
Hannah and Tyler Phillips
1993 U280 Grand Villa AKA Pearl
Basement Air
Cummins 6CT8.3
Build Number 4196

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #111
We've got the new batteries installed and everything is working well but I have a question on the charged voltage.

The charger seems to be doing its job and the batteries seem to be charged completely.  The charger went into float and was there for a few days maintaining a voltage of around 13.4ish.  However when we disconnected from shore power the voltage on both the victron and xantrex was reading around 12.6.  We turned off everything we could to reduce drain on the batteries but that was the best reading we could get.

Does 12.6 sound right for freshly charged batteries?  I thought it would have started closer to 13.2 but am not really sure.
Hannah and Tyler Phillips
1993 U280 Grand Villa AKA Pearl
Basement Air
Cummins 6CT8.3
Build Number 4196

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #112
We've got the new batteries installed and everything is working well but I have a question on the charged voltage.

The charger seems to be doing its job and the batteries seem to be charged completely.  The charger went into float and was there for a few days maintaining a voltage of around 13.4ish.  However when we disconnected from shore power the voltage on both the victron and xantrex was reading around 12.6.  We turned off everything we could to reduce drain on the batteries but that was the best reading we could get.

Does 12.6 sound right for freshly charged batteries?  I thought it would have started closer to 13.2 but am not really sure.

If you're running some flavor of lead-acid battery then 12.6V after a 3-hour rest is a good number.  If you're running one of the Lithuanian batteries, you need to ask someone else.
1992 Foretravel Grand Villa
U225 SBID Build No. 4134
1986 Rockwood Driftwood
1968 S.I.A.T.A. Spring
1962 Studebaker Lark
1986 Honda VF700C
1983 Honda VF750C
Charlie, the Dog was broken out of jail 24 Oct 2023
N1RPN
AA1OH (H)e who must be obeyed.

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #113
A resting fully charged AGM battery should be 12.75 to 12.85. 

A float voltage of 13.4 would be correct at 100 degrees F as far as I know. 

Seems you are not at 100 degrees so the 13.4 is at least .2 volts low as is the resting voltage.

My temp controlled charger floats the house and engine batteries through the combiner at 13.6 at 77 degrees as far as I see.

The charger auto adjusts its charging and float voltage fairly constantly during temp changes.

Enough so I think I have noticed the panel showing different voltages in hot versus cold at the battery temps.

Which seems to me to indicate the system actually works like it said it's supposed to?
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #114
We've got the new batteries installed and everything is working well but I have a question on the charged voltage.

The charger seems to be doing its job and the batteries seem to be charged completely.  The charger went into float and was there for a few days maintaining a voltage of around 13.4ish.  However when we disconnected from shore power the voltage on both the victron and xantrex was reading around 12.6.  We turned off everything we could to reduce drain on the batteries but that was the best reading we could get.
Does 12.6 sound right for freshly charged batteries?  I thought it would have started closer to 13.2 but am not really sure.
The only way to really tell is to disconnect the batteries after charging, wait several hours and check voltage. Lead acid should read about 12.6-.7. Checking right after the charge has finished will always read high. See chart.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #115
Alright I think we're in a safe range.  We ran the generator while we were on the road yesterday and when parked and shut it off we started at 12.81V. 

As for the float voltage of 13.4 being off by a couple tenths I'm not sure, it might be.  We have the settings on the xantrex to AGM for battery type and a temp setting of warm.  The charger has  preset parameters and isn't really customizable unless I set it for a custom battery type.

Thanks everyone :)
Hannah and Tyler Phillips
1993 U280 Grand Villa AKA Pearl
Basement Air
Cummins 6CT8.3
Build Number 4196

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #116
Change the temp setting to not warm?
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #117
Just in case you missed this information in your reading, here is why you don't run the charging voltage too high with AGM style lead acid batteries:

Charge voltage is critical with these types of batteries as both are recombinant batteries. This means that the oxygen that is normally produced on the positive plate in all lead acid batteries recombines with hydrogen given off by the negative plate. The recombination of the hydrogen and oxygen produces water, which recycles back to the battery acid, therefore the battery is maintenance free and does not need topping up.

The sealing vent used in the design ensures that a positive internal pressure is maintained to ensure the recombination of the gasses occur and not allow the cell ?to dry out and fail.

In addition, the valve must safely release any excess pressure that may be produced during overcharging ?(e.g. alternator rectifier fault), otherwise the cell would be irreversibly damaged. The excessive pressure that the valve is releasing is both hydrogen and oxygen which can not recombined within the battery so breaks the cycle, net result is that battery would eventually dry out.

From:

AGM & EFB Automotive Batteries Explained - Yuasa battery

Congratulations on the successful completion of a much needed upgrade.
1992 Foretravel Grand Villa
U225 SBID Build No. 4134
1986 Rockwood Driftwood
1968 S.I.A.T.A. Spring
1962 Studebaker Lark
1986 Honda VF700C
1983 Honda VF750C
Charlie, the Dog was broken out of jail 24 Oct 2023
N1RPN
AA1OH (H)e who must be obeyed.

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #118

The warm setting takes him from 40 to 90 degrees.  The AGM warm setting he is using should be just fine. I can not remember if he has the Victron 712, if he does that will give hime accurate temp readings.

Even Lifeline says bulk/absorb their AGMs at 14.2V-14.4V and float at 13.2V-13.4V.28 de mai. de 2012

I have two temp sensors, one from Victron 712 and other from Xantrex SW200p, both always read the same.
97 U295 40, Build #5040, 6C8.3 325 HP
Oregon Continuous Traveler
Samsung Residential #RF20HFENBSR,
Xantrex SW2012, (3)AGM8D Hse, (2)AGM Grp24 Eng, Victron BMV-712, 1800w Solar 4 LG & 2 Sunpower
Extreme Full Body Pt w/hdlmps, new furn/floor, 4 down Lexus 2004 GX470 AWD curb weight 4,740 lbs
Prev: 1990 Barth, 10L 300 2 yrs; 91&92 Monaco Signature, 10 yrs, 10L C 300 &  6C8.3 300; 1997 ForeT 6C8.3 325 since May 2017.  Employed by Guaranty RV 14+ yrs.  Former VW New Car Dlr/Service Dlr, Sales Mgr, Rv Sales, and Service Adviser from 1968-2017
"Don't criticize what you can't understand" Bob Dylan

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #119
The posters answer at one point stated a resting volt of 12.61 on a fully charged AGM battery.

Anyone think a fully charged good condition AGM's resting voltage should be 12.61?

If you were "on the road" then the alternators output may be higher than the charger and may have brought the batteries up to full charge?

If the 12.61 volt readings repeats itself I would change the settings to cold to increase the float and fully charged voltage just to test.

Like I have seen on our coach the auto temp compensating charging settings are required by the battery makers anymore.

My original heart freedom 25's built in our feb 97 produced coach was a few serial numbers below 100,000.  So somewhere in 1997 all the coaches built had the ability to have a temp controlled charging system.

That's on modded sine wave units.

The warm setting may not be the actual correct one it seems.  You may need to tinker with it to end up where you need the batteries to be.

For sure a desulfurization device would be on any AGM battery I owned to help keep the condition as good as possible as most cannot be equalized. 

Lifeline are .2 volts lower than other agm's due to their higher capacity internal connections as far as my programs show in my magnum me-arc panel. 

AGM 1 and AGM 2 are in their auto programming

"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #120
I shut the main breaker off to check the batteries again and after about 3 minutes the battery voltage stopped dropping at 12.55 volts.  I turned off all of the breakers in the sub panel so that there was no power draw on the inverter which I thought might be affecting the voltage and after about 3 minutes the battery voltage came up to 12.64V. 

I'm going to disconnect the batteries and let them rest for a few hours and check them with the voltage meter.  Is it possible that we have a bad battery or is the float voltage not high enough as some have suggested.

I have tried switching the temperature mode on the xantrex and every setting stays at around 13.4V for a float charge.  The float voltage fluctuates a lot from around 13.1V to 13.6V but it stays around 13.4 most of the time.

We ordered everything from Hodges Marine and they don't have tech support so I can't ask them and xantrex says to contact the seller for questions or issues.  Hahaha
Hannah and Tyler Phillips
1993 U280 Grand Villa AKA Pearl
Basement Air
Cummins 6CT8.3
Build Number 4196

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #121
Right after disconnecting the batteries one read 12.81v and the other read 12.83v.  They've been sitting for a little over an hour now and they're both reading 12.94v.  I will check them again in a bit.
Hannah and Tyler Phillips
1993 U280 Grand Villa AKA Pearl
Basement Air
Cummins 6CT8.3
Build Number 4196

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #122
Congrats, nice upgrade you have completed.  12.83 number for, and at, your battery matches my Orielly's AGM8D readings at full resting charge also.  Also I would keep your battery settings at AGM, temp at warm, unless battery temp on Victron goes over 89 degrees or below 40 degrees, as Xantrex recommends.
97 U295 40, Build #5040, 6C8.3 325 HP
Oregon Continuous Traveler
Samsung Residential #RF20HFENBSR,
Xantrex SW2012, (3)AGM8D Hse, (2)AGM Grp24 Eng, Victron BMV-712, 1800w Solar 4 LG & 2 Sunpower
Extreme Full Body Pt w/hdlmps, new furn/floor, 4 down Lexus 2004 GX470 AWD curb weight 4,740 lbs
Prev: 1990 Barth, 10L 300 2 yrs; 91&92 Monaco Signature, 10 yrs, 10L C 300 &  6C8.3 300; 1997 ForeT 6C8.3 325 since May 2017.  Employed by Guaranty RV 14+ yrs.  Former VW New Car Dlr/Service Dlr, Sales Mgr, Rv Sales, and Service Adviser from 1968-2017
"Don't criticize what you can't understand" Bob Dylan

Re: Preventative maintenance and possible battery upgrade

Reply #123
Lithium's HATE cold. AGM all day long
1996 U295-36, Cummins 300hp, 8.3. Build number 4864. Vin number 1F97D536XTNO54271. Purchased October 31, 2019.