Radiant floor heating

Topic: Radiant floor heating (Read 1465 times) previous topic - next topic

Radiant floor heating

April 05, 2020, 10:52:26 am

Ok so

I an thinking of replacing the wood in the coach again.. (long Story). I am not happy with it and everytime I look at it.. it bothers me so Out it is going..

I am going to remove the tile in the bathroom also.. So while I am in those areas I am thinking of adding the Radiant heating..

Thinking of a 3/8" PEX made for radiant heating.. I am thinking of connecting this to the Aquahot with its own pump and use the heat off the aquahot for the heating as the aquahot is used on electric or diesel almost always..

So questions

1) can I router a line in the flooring (after I remove whats their now) approx 3/8" to 1/2"? Without any issues? How thick is the floor in the living room/ Kitchen/ Bath room?

2) Anyone familiar with these? Home/ Office/ coach?

After taking the aquahot out and replacing everything on it and rebuilding it.. I think I can tie it in pretty easily.

they make some type of metal track that houses and helps spread the heat.. Wonder if those would be ok to use if nailed down or a problem with movement? I am thinking just router the floor with a groove for the pex to sit in and loop it where I want and tie it all in at the aquahot.

What do you guys think or if you have done this? My only real concern is the movement of the coach twist and vibrations.. but with them being built solid I think maybe it wont be a problem.

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #1 – April 05, 2020, 11:13:30 am

David , my coach came with it new . Good , no ----very good . If another coach gets in my vision ----it will have floor heat . Out of the sack each morning and place your feet on a warm floor when it is 30 degrees outside , well kind of hard to beat . When I was a young buck it would not have much difference , but now .

Brad Metzger

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #2 – April 05, 2020, 11:15:53 am

David, if I remember correct the ply floor is 5/8" so not really good for putting a groove all over it. If you have put another layer of say 3/8" on top of this oem floor, maybe. We use a few mexican hand made rugs in main areas to help with cool floors but even on the tiled portions it never feels that cold to consider doing what you are considering. I personally would just think a bit more about what you are considering,and along with some rugs just buy a few pairs of really good lined slippers instead. Sounds like you guys walk around barefoot to have thought about this at all.
JohnH

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #3 – April 05, 2020, 11:24:29 am

Quote

How thick is the floor in the living room/ Kitchen/ Bath room?

This would be a neat project. I say, why not! John may be right but I thought the flooring was 3/4". I remember Ernie posting awhile back that he hid the 120v wiring that runs up the right side by routing a groove in the plywood to hide it.
jor

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #4 – April 05, 2020, 11:31:51 am

Thinking maybe Bob will chime in on the floor thickness ..

Thinking the 3/8" Groove would be ideal ... If I used the metal channel I would screw it to the floor and I think it would help mitigate the groove moving or at least help it.. seen a video where the guy did his 5th wheel... Pretty sure the Foretravel floor structure is more solid than any 5th wheel built. Thinking if it worked for him .. it should work for me but.. Wondering!!

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #5 – April 05, 2020, 11:49:02 am

David, the only drawbacks I can see to your plan are the added weight along with the complexity/breakdown/maintenance issues of a hydronic in floor system. If you can afford the excess weight, go for it.

Concur that routering grooves throughout the existing flooring is probably not the best option from a structural integrity standpoint...as well built as these coaches are, they do flex more than you realize going down the road. The in house systems I've seen pour thin-set over the tubing as a heat sink, and install flooring on top of that. Now that would be a ton of weight...literally.

How many 20 year old 5th wheels do you see on the road? Most are on blocks in mobile home parks. Apples and oranges.

I looked at electric in floor heating for my bath when I redid the flooring in there, and passed only because I couldn't find a kit at the big box stores when I was doing my work. Wish I'd done it now, as I love the tile, but need to preheat the floor a bit before showers. Woody

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #6 – April 05, 2020, 12:05:27 pm

Quote from: Pyolet – April 05, 2020, 11:49:02 am

David, the only drawbacks I can see to your plan are the added weight along with the complexity/breakdown/maintenance issues of a hydronic in floor system. If you can afford the excess weight, go for it.

Hardly Nothing in the grand scheme of things..maybe 100lb max? figured with what I saved on battery weight with the lithium.. hmm not such a bad decision now... and if I routered the weight would counter? Hmmm maybe?

Quote from: Pyolet – April 05, 2020, 11:49:02 am

Concur that routering grooves throughout the existing flooring is probably not the best option from a structural integrity standpoint...as well built as these coaches are, they do flex more than you realize going down the road. The in house systems I've seen pour thin-set over the tubing as a heat sink, and install flooring on top of that. Now that would be a ton of weight...literally.

No thinset involved just tube/coolant and the exchanger and maybe an added pump.

Quote from: Pyolet – April 05, 2020, 11:49:02 am

How many 20 year old 5th wheels do you see on the road? Most are on blocks in mobile home parks. Apples and oranges.

It wasnt parked.. its being towed so if it an last the test I am sure my foretravel can do a little better if not.. maybe I was sold a bill of goods that wasnt so true after the fact?

Quote from: Pyolet – April 05, 2020, 11:49:02 am

I looked at electric in floor heating for my bath when I redid the flooring in there, and passed only because I couldn't find a kit at the big box stores when I was doing my work. Wish I'd done it now, as I love the tile, but need to preheat the floor a bit before showers. Woody

That tile is real cold in the winter.. even with the aquahot on in the bath the tile seems to collect the cold.. you can stick some meat on that tile in the winter and it will hold for a month

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #7 – April 05, 2020, 12:32:33 pm

David. We used radiant heat in our house. Solar heated. Probably 4$ a month heating bills. Why can't you use two pound polystyrene foam to elevate for tubing and heat sinks. Sheet over that for flooring.
Scott

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #8 – April 05, 2020, 12:36:47 pm

We have vinyl tile in our bath. Original owners ordered it that way. Looks like tile. Never cold

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #9 – April 05, 2020, 01:26:07 pm

Dave, perhaps calling MOT service dept & ask Derek's advice. Also, adding a quarter inch to the floor plywood before routing will compensate for any loss of structural integrity. Where the newly finished floor meets bedroom and living room carpet will join by using metal carpet border.
Good luck
Harry
2005 U270
Bronze Bordello
36'

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #10 – April 05, 2020, 02:40:13 pm

David, I have also thought about this quite a bit. Our entire home and my woodworking are in-floor hydronic heat. I really like it. I would be very reluctant to cut grooves in the existing subfloor to add aluminum heat exchangers and and tubing without adding a compensating layer on top. A 1/4" (6mm) layer of baltic birch plywood would replace some of the lost structural integrity. Probably need to glue and staple it. At 6'2" I am really not willing to give up any net headroom at all.

You have to be careful of where cabinets are, will doors clear? Same with the slide.

With only 3/8" PEX tubing the grooves would need to be closer together than with 1/2" PEX To get the same amountbof heat per square foot. 1/2" PEX guidelines are 6" from a wall, " to the next PEX line and then 12" in the field. With 3/8" this might be 4" and 8". Be sure to do a 24 hr pressure test.

Doing a heat loss analysis will let you know if heating the floor will be sufficient (enough BTUs) to heat the coach. Some combination of in floor and heat exchangers might be the best bet. AH coolant is much hotter (170-180°) than a typical in-floor heat system (120° or less) so a mixing valve might be needed. In our home the return lines mix with the in feed line to push 90-120° through the floors based on air and floor temps in each zone. Max output from the boiler is 135°.

Before you do this make sure the PEX and manifolds are compatible with the automotive antifreeze in the AH. Both our house and the shop have a specialize antifreeze in them and I am pretty sure it is not automotive.

What are you thinking of for a finished floor? We have been looking at FLOR carpet tiles for awhile. They are vinyl backed, floating, work over heated floors (some styles do) and are about 0.34" think for the softer feel tiles. These plus a 6mm baltic birch subfloor add on would be about 0.58" thick. Maybe workable. Create Custom Flooring with Carpet Tiles & Area Rugs | FLOR

Keep thinking on this, a workable solution is probably out there. Keep us in the loop.

Brad's coach is special and it may actually have hydronic in-floor heat but most of those coaches and the newer ones have electric in-floor heat.

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #11 – April 05, 2020, 02:55:52 pm

My biggest concern overall is the slide... in the open position I have about 3/4" clear(maybe less).. in the closed position the imprint of the roller wheel is left on the floor (one reason I dont like the flooring).. Maybe I will call Foretravel and see what they say..

I thought Bob would have known the thickness of the floor off the top of his head..

The pic I posted here shows what I have to play with... looks like they used a subfloor maybe? not sure if this will need removed also to do this or if this can be part of the depth if I decide to router..

Off topic but on topic... anyone know what they used to run the tube inside the coach for the aquahot (what holds the coolant)? Look at the top left of the aquahot pic...PEX but I will dbl check the rating to be sure. I can always put in a flat plate heat exchanger with a tempering valve to the PEX also.. wouldnt be to hard either. So I think we have options.

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #12 – April 05, 2020, 03:02:33 pm

It looks like PEX in my coach but it may be different from water line PEX, much higher temps. What kind of PEX to use in this application is a good question,

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #13 – April 05, 2020, 04:17:48 pm

I used an electric heated mat in a previous coach then had cork floating floor over it. Nice! and very easy to install.
Where's Rudy? I think he put in an electric heated mat in his coach recently.

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #14 – April 05, 2020, 04:23:16 pm

120 vac heat strips sized for the space from Warm Zone Inc. Works great on dedicated breaker in circuit breaker panel.

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #15 – April 05, 2020, 04:39:36 pm

David when I pulled up my flooring in the coach someone previously had used a circular saw to remove the old wood flooring in the kitchen area. They dug down a little bit maybe 3/8 of an inch I didn't measure it. Didn't seem to affect the stability of weight-bearing of the flooring. I've drilled several holes through the flooring to bring wiring up for the pioneer amplifier I put underneath the jackknife sofa. I can't remember what that depth was now but I think it was more than 3/4 of an inch. The one area I can be sure that I saw was under the toilet, or actually the hole that goes down to the black tank. I'm pretty sure I clocked it at an inch and a half. Like two 3/4-in sheets of plywood together. But I am not sure on that one. I think I took a picture of the opening when I was trying to gauge the depth of the pipe and I will look for it.
As far as the hydronic heating system is concerned, it sounds like a great idea. Although I'm not sure that it's the best idea to retrofit into our coaches.I think the heat off the aqua hot would be a little bit too much although I guess you could put a tempering valve in there to bring the temperature down. I know I saved quite a few hundred pounds removing the tile and thinset from my coach. I wouldn't want to have to put it back in. Otherwise almost any other flooring that you put on top of there might have issues with it.
I know the LVT flooring I just put in and said it was okay for that application but the temperature max was not very much.

I looked and couldn't find a photo of it. But removing the toilet will tell you quick the depth of your subfloor.

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #16 – April 06, 2020, 11:27:20 am

The reason I said 5/8" was because I put down a 3/8" ply subfloor on top of it as I know that 1"is a minimum standard needed for ceramic tile floor layment. I also checked in a few areas by drilling small holes as a test to find out what that thickness was. I cannot remember see any doubling up as Bob mentions.
David's picture by the step well shows he has a sublayer under his vinyl flooring and this is standard practice when putting a new floor covering on especially one of the sheet or vinyl flooring tiles. It is to get a new smooth level surface. Putting down a levelling cement is another way but you really need to have done it before to get good results as it sets up rapidly and lots of troweling to make a decent job. New ply is easier and it must be 100% glued down with lots of staples, which is what I did. The ceramic tiling in our coach has proven this system out as it has been down 11 years and to this day not one crack in either tile or grout. I actually just bought some more sealer for it yesterday after cleaning the grout and will give a few coats on it today to reseal. The job looks like the day it was installed.
JohnH

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #17 – April 06, 2020, 11:57:19 am

My newer coach has electric floor heat. It does not take long before the floor starts feeling warm after you turn it on. As Brad says it is really nice to get up in the morning and have warm floors. With the electric the floor is evenly heated. I have a good friend has a 2019 Entregra Cornerstone. That coach had pex run through the floor from a loop that is off their aquahot. They say it takes forever for the floor to start getting warm and that there are warm spots and cold spots. Floor temperature is very uneven.

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #18 – April 06, 2020, 09:52:07 pm

Quote from: turbojack – April 06, 2020, 11:57:19 am

My newer coach has electric floor heat. It does not take long before the floor starts feeling warm after you turn it on. As Brad says it is really nice to get up in the morning and have warm floors. With the electric the floor is evenly heated. I have a good friend has a 2019 Entregra Cornerstone. That coach had pex run through the floor from a loop that is off their aquahot. They say it takes forever for the floor to start getting warm and that there are warm spots and cold spots. Floor temperature is very uneven.

Wonder how that works with the heat not being even... heaters only take a min to heat the living room and its the same heat from the aquahot to the floor(I assume).. Think I am going to modify the aquahot for the pex .. havnt decided on the 3/8" or the 1/2" ..

Still waiting on Bob (Caflashbob ) to Chime in on the floor thickness.. Cmon Bob stop holding out..

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #19 – April 06, 2020, 10:02:46 pm

If I had been at Foretravel past 1993 you are correct I would know. Being a nerd. To buy our 97 was a trip. Never drove a new U320. Total crap shoot. Bought it anyway based on my knowledge of Foretravels build quality.

I had demo assembled pieces of floors, sidewalls and roofs to show customers and personal videos of my walk down the production line and videos of my coaches going up the local grades out of so cal

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #20 – April 06, 2020, 10:04:51 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – April 06, 2020, 10:02:46 pm

If I had been at Foretravel past 1993 you are correct I would know. Being a nerd. To buy our 97 was a trip. Never drove a new U320. Total crap shoot. Bought it anyway based on my knowledge of Foretravels build quality.

I had demo assembled pieces of floors, sidewalls and roofs to show customers and personal videos of my walk down the production line and videos of my coaches going up the local grades out of so cal

Educated guess? what did they have? I am sure they didnt make them thinner over time.. Guess I will have to break down and call..

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #21 – April 06, 2020, 10:59:01 pm

No wood or tile floors back then

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #22 – April 06, 2020, 11:17:40 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – April 06, 2020, 10:59:01 pm

No wood or tile floors back then

They had to have had a base of some sort? what did they attach the carpet and cabinets to?

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #23 – April 07, 2020, 01:34:12 am

3/4" marine plywood? Vacuum bonded to the welded steel and foam floor structure. Unicoaches had fiberglass on the bottom side of the floor? This IS 30 years ago. I had an almost eidetic memory but for some reason the true answer eludes me at this time.

All the assorted pieces were vacuum bonded individually then bolted together.

Floor, side walls, roof, compartment dividers, bottom floor.

Ask James T. He knows.

I never sold Unicoaches. Only Unihomes, GVF, FTX, Travco's

The removed plug pieces shown here from Unicoaches seem to look different than the original grand villa's

An extra layer?

Re: Radiant floor heating

Reply #24 – April 07, 2020, 08:54:26 am

Could you measure the subfloor thickness at a point where there's an accessible penetration? Maybe at the steering column?

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