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Topic: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading (Read 10493 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #100 –
Quote from: wolfe10 –
Yes, the ride height valves/travel mode are basically "not smart"  (see how politically correct I am!).  They merely maintain a given dimension between chassis and axle-- one on each side in the rear and a single one in front.  Just a three decision tree based on input from the linkage-- do nothing, add air,  exhaust air.
You have possibly a foot of articulation on the front end. Zero in the rear. So if you operate with six inches of droop and we do you only need to move either front tire up six inches before you are metal to metal on the stops. Then do the same on the rear in the opposite direction that does not articulation but worse (for off-roading) attempts to level axle to frame, causing more stress on the frame lifting the front tire off the ground. Perfect storm. Having travel solenoids deactivated would of slowed down or prevented this IMO at travel height.
Scott

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #101 –
Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart –
Even if the bulkhead partially failed. the airbags should be in the same location relative to everything else.

Pierce
I can vouch for that. I had total front bulkhead failure in Louisiana. Never noticed it while driving. Only saw it when stopped in a rest area and something didn't look right.  Do a "Has this happened to anyone" search in Foretravel Discussions to get the whole story. I drove from Louisiana to Maine with the front bulkhead resting on several pieces of welded angle iron and noticed no difference in handling. Why I find it hard to believe the S curve episode caused the damage to the coach.

Roland

1993 U280 4341
2010 Jeep Liberty
The Pied Pipers

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #102 –
I can't see why the bulk head anything to do with the suspension as they both hang off the frame from different locations.
Peter and Frieda Morin
1999 36ft. U320 Foretravel
Build # 5436
1998 Suzuki Sidekick Sport

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #103 –
Quote from: oldguy –
I can't see why the bulk head anything to do with the suspension as they both hang off the frame from different locations.

The term "bulkhead issue" is really a misnomer.  That piece of flat steel isn't the problem, the problem lies in the square tubing to which that bulkhead is, or was, bolted, id Est, the frame itself.
1992 Foretravel Grand Villa
U225 SBID Build No. 4134
1986 Rockwood Driftwood
1968 S.I.A.T.A. Spring
1962 Studebaker Lark
1986 Honda VF700C
1983 Honda VF750C
Charlie, the Dog was broken out of jail 24 Oct 2023
N1RPN
AA1OH (H)e who must be obeyed.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #104 –
I've always thought of the bulkhead as where the big angle iron is bolted to the rectangular tubing with some tin in between the two. It's not just the tubing that rusts as the backside of the angle iron is loaded with rust even on super non corroded coaches. I separated the two with a chisel and a single jack and then ran a Sawzall blade into the crack and was amazed at the amount of rust that fell onto the ground.  I only went a few inches and am sure that there is ton of big chunks of rust where we can't see.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #105 –
Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart –
I only went a few inches and am sure that there is ton of big chunks of rust where we can't see.
"Out of sight - out of mind" that's my motto!  :thumbsup:
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #106 –
It looks like in one of the pictures the tire rubbed the bodywork at the top of the wheel travel.  What if the bus came to rest on the tire, and the tire is trying to rotate, would that bend the trailing arm, or maybe not possible?   

It's hard to tell but the picture of the S probably has more elevation change than appears, most likely beyond what the suspension could handle, which transferred to the frame, which twisted.

 
Freightliner MT55 w 24 ft box
All aluminum.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #107 –
Quote from: markb –
It looks like in one of the pictures the tire rubbed the bodywork at the top of the wheel travel.
Those white rub marks in the top of the wheel well are not unusual.  Most older Foretravel coaches accumulate those marks in one or all wheel wells during their lifetime.

It is usually the result of moving the coach prematurely before the air suspension has time to pressurize and lift the body off the tires, or driving too fast over whoop-de-doos. (see photo below)

Often inflicted by drivers unfamiliar with air suspension systems (new coach owners, RV lot salesmen, repair shop employees)

The leveling system handbook warns us about moving the coach too soon in the description of the Travel Light:

"The TRAVEL light only means the leveling system is off and the air system has started to build air pressure. It does not mean the vehicle is at the proper ride height."


1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #108 –
Answer to 106,no that would not bend the torque rod,still think something else bent it,if it even is bent.The torgue rods hold what is attached to the
Lower part of the air bags and what is attached to the upper part together
So it moves up and down uniformly,plus one rod on the front and one on the back to help with side movement.
96 U270 BUILD 4810
85 380SL
Drummonds TN.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #109 –
Quote from: John44 –
Answer to 106,no that would not bend the torque rod,still think something else bent it,if it even is bent.The torgue rods hold what is attached to the
Lower part of the air bags and what is attached to the upper part together
So it moves up and down uniformly,plus one rod on the front and one on the back to help with side movement.

What I was thinking is with the coach sitting on the tires where the rub marks indicate, the engine would be attempting to turn the wheel which wouldn't be able to because of the weight of the coach on top, but would induce the rotation of the hub which is attached to the torque or trailing arm which would put a bend in the arm.   

Or maybe the trailing arms are naturally that shape? 

I'm just guessing. 
Freightliner MT55 w 24 ft box
All aluminum.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #110 –
Quote from: markb –
...the engine would be attempting to turn the wheel...
The damage occurred to the front suspension.  The engine doesn't turn the front wheel.  Even if the wheel was jammed it would just skid on the dirt.
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #112 –
Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie –
The damage occurred to the front suspension.  The engine doesn't turn the front wheel.  Even if it was jammed it would just skid on the dirt.

Roger.  Was trying to follow the thread:). 
Freightliner MT55 w 24 ft box
All aluminum.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #113 –
Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart –
I've always thought of the bulkhead as where the big angle iron is bolted to the rectangular tubing with some tin in between the two. . . .
Pierce

That piece of tin is the actual bulkhead and keeps the space frame from lozenging.  Take a cardboard box and open the top and bottom, now push against one of the edges on the vertical sides.  Lozenge.  It's the same with the semi-monocoque or space frame construction of the Unihome chassis except the bulkheads are placed underneath, one at each end and in between the through bays.

Elliott may or may not have a hidden bend at or near one of the front attach points.  More time spent getting in and out than cutting and replacing to effect a repair.
1992 Foretravel Grand Villa
U225 SBID Build No. 4134
1986 Rockwood Driftwood
1968 S.I.A.T.A. Spring
1962 Studebaker Lark
1986 Honda VF700C
1983 Honda VF750C
Charlie, the Dog was broken out of jail 24 Oct 2023
N1RPN
AA1OH (H)e who must be obeyed.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #114 –
Any news,good or bad?
96 U270 BUILD 4810
85 380SL
Drummonds TN.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #115 –
Still no news from the collision shop. They ordered new axle seals from FT and they've been taking their sweet time getting here (which isn't unexpected) so it's just been sitting inert in their lot where the tow truck dumped it.

In the meantime we've started house hunting in Prescott. Being full timers has been fun but we're ready for a home base we can come and go from and the stability that will once again provide.
1987 Grand Villa ORED
2001 U320 4010

Not all that wander are lost... but I often am.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #116 –
Elliott,

So, no diagnosis yet on damage to front suspension???
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #117 –
Quote from: wolfe10 –
Elliott,

So, no diagnosis yet on damage to front suspension???
Correct, no axle seals = no way to drive it on the lift I guess. And I'm certain they aren't in a hurry to find work, given the current state of the RV industry.

I'm mentally prepped for this to be a very long ordeal.
1987 Grand Villa ORED
2001 U320 4010

Not all that wander are lost... but I often am.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #118 –
Think a big repair shop would have a nearby source for seals other then Foretravel,looks like your stuck with them.
96 U270 BUILD 4810
85 380SL
Drummonds TN.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #119 –
Quote from: Elliott –
Still no news from the collision shop.

Seems to me that you don't really need an RV collision shop but more of a truck alignment shop, and maybe a fabricator for the repairs.
1992 Foretravel Grand Villa
U225 SBID Build No. 4134
1986 Rockwood Driftwood
1968 S.I.A.T.A. Spring
1962 Studebaker Lark
1986 Honda VF700C
1983 Honda VF750C
Charlie, the Dog was broken out of jail 24 Oct 2023
N1RPN
AA1OH (H)e who must be obeyed.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #120 –
Quote from: Old Toolmaker –
Seems to me that you don't really need an RV collision shop but more of a truck alignment shop, and maybe a fabricator for the repairs.
Exactly what I have been thinking. What is a body shop going to do? What was wrong with the axle seals other than stranding you in their shop?

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #121 –
Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart –
Exactly what I have been thinking. What is a body shop going to do? What was wrong with the axle seals other than stranding you in their shop?
Supposedly they have a chassis specialist that they outsource major chassis work to. Tbd.

New axle seals are just standard procedure when you pull the axles for towing.

I am also worried about bulkhead damage, wall damage, etc... so it'll be good to get it up on a lift and looked at by multiple parties (myself included).

I'm not going to get too worked up until they come back with an estimate. I've done this dance a few times with RV shops and am at peace with the fact that it will probably be a drawn out process with poor communication.
1987 Grand Villa ORED
2001 U320 4010

Not all that wander are lost... but I often am.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #122 –
Quote from: Elliott –
New axle seals are just standard procedure when you pull the axles for towing.
The axle seals have nothing to do with towing. There is only a gasket underneath the axle it self, only costs a buck and takes a second to put on. That's the advantage to full floating hubs, nothing is disturbed when you pull an axle. It has nothing to do with the hub. Does not sound good if they are telling you it's standard procedure. Standard procedure for keeping you in the shop perhaps. I have another example but crude.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #123 –
Quote from: Elliott –
Supposedly they have a chassis specialist that they outsource major chassis work to. Tbd.

You really are as young as that photo aren't you Elliott?

Trust me.  It's starting to sound as though you should shop around for repairs.

FWIW you can put the axle shafts back in without the gasket and drive on and off the lift.  If there's a bit of weepage, wipe it up with a rag and odorless mineral spirits.
1992 Foretravel Grand Villa
U225 SBID Build No. 4134
1986 Rockwood Driftwood
1968 S.I.A.T.A. Spring
1962 Studebaker Lark
1986 Honda VF700C
1983 Honda VF750C
Charlie, the Dog was broken out of jail 24 Oct 2023
N1RPN
AA1OH (H)e who must be obeyed.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #124 –
Agree with the above,run,and keep going,if they are going to"outsource"the work what's the holdup,crawl under and take a peek
the chassi and components are not rocket science.Put out a call to nearby forum members to take a look,at least find out what exactly the problem is.
96 U270 BUILD 4810
85 380SL
Drummonds TN.