Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Topic: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading (Read 10493 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #175 – July 03, 2021, 09:20:11 pm

Think we need to start a new thread,we got away from the original problem.

SPLIT: Tires, beads, etc. {split from Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading]

Reply #176 – July 04, 2021, 11:19:24 am

One or more of the messages of this topic have been moved to Foretravel Tech Talk - https://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=42685.0 since they were unrelated to the current topic

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #177 – July 04, 2021, 11:20:21 am

Quote from: John44 – July 03, 2021, 09:20:11 pm

Think we need to start a new thread,we got away from the original problem.

Done.

Please take discussion of tires, balance beads, etc. to the other topic so this one may remain about Elliot's frame concern.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #178 – July 20, 2021, 02:46:01 pm

So the coach is back from Freightliner. Attached is the alignment work they did. Now we're working on how/where we get a new mounting plate for the one that was trimmed down. Hoping this is something Foretravel sells...

The body work they're doing is going into paint soon and the windshields are in... so we're getting there. Just need to get the airbag plate figured out and have new bags put in and then we might be back on the road soon!

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #179 – July 20, 2021, 02:50:59 pm

Elliott,

Am I reading the RO correctly-- only issue causing the damage is play/wear on bushings?? Are they replacing the old bushings?

Front end alignments specs certainly weren't far enough out to cause damage.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #180 – July 20, 2021, 03:02:20 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – July 20, 2021, 02:50:59 pm

Am I reading the RO correctly-- only issue causing the damage is play/wear on bushings?? Are they replacing the old bushings?

You're reading it the same as me, I think. They are NOT replacing the bushings... when I spoke to the service manager he downplayed the bushings issue. "Not very bad, probably 5-6 years left in them".

At this point our/my best guess is reduced margin due to oversized tires + me throwing it out of alignment during the incident caused the tires to hit the plates. Is that possible?

The real test will be when we get the new mounting plate on there I guess. I had the service advisor air the coach all the way down and he said there wasn't any rub on the plates currently...for whatever that's worth....

These guys have been driving it around Phoenix without issue

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #181 – July 20, 2021, 03:07:02 pm

No mention of checking/setting Sheppard steering box CUT-ANGLES.

The mechanical stops are there to prevent tire/wheel contact with either suspension or body components.

The pressure relief screws allow adjustment so there is an "air gap" of a 1/4 inch or so between where the relief plungers limit cut angle and the mechanical stops.

These adjustments are the same on any OTR truck with the Sheppard M100 steering box.

This is certainly something you can check yourself.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #182 – July 20, 2021, 03:25:54 pm

Quote from: Elliott – July 20, 2021, 03:02:20 pm

At this point our/my best guess is reduced margin due to oversized tires + me throwing it out of alignment during the incident caused the tires to hit the plates. Is that possible?

Our U300 has been running 295/75R22.5 since time began. Since the tire has the same diameter as the 275/80 and only 5/8 of an inch wider, I don't consider it "oversized." We have gone across fields, down dry washes to the beach, etc and in all kinds of coach attitudes without anything more than a small shiny spot on the air bag mount. I can't imagine any attitude that would have caused your problem, especially since the shop cannot find anything wrong with it.

What do you mean by "throwing it out of alignment." I never hold the wheel over against the stops to where it makes the power steering noise. Perhaps the stops were not adjusted correctly sometime in the past.

Pierce

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #183 – July 20, 2021, 03:31:21 pm

I personally would leave the plate and bag alone. More clearance, I don't see any safety issue. I would probably trim the other side to match, but that is just me. Black paint would fix the rest.

Interesting that insurance is paying for all this, as the bad bushings is what was determined causing all this. From the times I did insurance claims as a RV service advisor, they would call this a 'Maintenance Issue" and kick it out. Maybe you have good insurance.

Glad you are moving ahead, hope all comes out well. I would push for the bushings to be replaced, even if I had to pay out of pocket.

Cheers
Chris

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #184 – July 20, 2021, 03:43:46 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – July 20, 2021, 03:25:54 pm

What do you mean by "throwing it out of alignment."

Purely a guess without really knowing what is/isn't possible, but when the front air dumped and the one wheel came off the ground, while the rear bags were applying upward pressure, I'm wondering if that was enough to throw the front alignment out of whack. Or just doing silly things like going places I shouldn't with a 32,000lb vehicle

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #185 – July 20, 2021, 04:01:59 pm

But it's fun going silly places. Don't like to have to worry about doing it though. I have to agree with you that there may be a combination of front and rear attitudes that may be a perfect storm when they occur. Just wonder what it is. I do know that while the center of the coach resists twisting, the same can't be said for everything in front and behind the bulkheads. I can't believe the snapping and popping noises our coach makes during transitions even when moving very slowly.

Pierce

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #186 – July 20, 2021, 04:24:50 pm

Quote from: gracerace – July 20, 2021, 03:31:21 pm

I personally would leave the plate and bag alone. More clearance, I don't see any safety issue. I would probably trim the other side to match, but that is just me. Black paint would fix the rest.

Interesting that insurance is paying for all this, as the bad bushings is what was determined causing all this. From the times I did insurance claims as a RV service advisor, they would call this a 'Maintenance Issue" and kick it out. Maybe you have good insurance.

Glad you are moving ahead, hope all comes out well. I would push for the bushings to be replaced, even if I had to pay out of pocket.

Cheers
Chris

X2
I agree with this. Bags don't care and bushing are cheap. As I recall 32$ to do the front or rear of coach with stock rubber bushings.
I have prepurchased a set and if I can find some motivation I'll install. Too Hot now.
Scott

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #187 – July 20, 2021, 04:44:31 pm

Quote from: Elliott – July 20, 2021, 03:02:20 pm

These guys have been driving it around Phoenix without issue

Elliott's Party Bus!

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #188 – July 20, 2021, 05:28:17 pm

Quote from: Old Toolmaker – July 20, 2021, 04:44:31 pm

Elliott's Party Bus!

Elliott's Party Bus and off road excursions!

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #189 – July 20, 2021, 06:37:59 pm

Now tentatively booking reservations for our 2022 tour...

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #190 – July 20, 2021, 09:07:57 pm

Quote from: Elliott – July 20, 2021, 06:37:59 pm

Now tentatively booking reservations for our 2022 tour...

In the long run Elliott, it wouldn't hurt for you to do a little reading about front end design. Just enough so that you understand what are caster, camber, and toe. The stuff Foretravel didn't buy is within the scope of any fabrication shop to build.

And that having wheels off the ground on a 32,000 truck is a bad thing in general.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #191 – July 20, 2021, 09:59:35 pm

I must disagree

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #192 – July 21, 2021, 08:31:45 am

If your talking about the torque rod bushings you got some wrong info,the front of the coach has 5 torque rods as does the rear,4 bushing halves per rod,some of the bolts and nuts and spacers will have to be replaced and it is a very labor intensive job,if you meant some other bushing then I stand corrected.
Elliot,agree with above,the plate will be fine like it is.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #193 – July 21, 2021, 10:57:26 am

I would not change that plate as you are not loosing any integrity with that bit off of it.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #194 – July 21, 2021, 11:57:30 am

Hey Elliott? I just read your Freightliner receipt and noticed the note "Left front rotor starting to show signs of discoloration." No big hurry, but close following is warranted. That and finding a fellow Foretraveler or truck brake shop to take a look at that front disk brake for signs of dragging. You'd be better off with a qualified list member INMNSHO because most truck shops only do drum brakes.

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #195 – July 21, 2021, 06:16:43 pm

Elliott,

Check the post about the new tires and clearance. This is a possible reason for you mishap and also the reason not much could be found wrong. It looks like the contact possibility is exactly where our photos show our tires being very close. It could have happened to us and we are always doing what you did. A 275/80 is the same diameter and would have done the same thing. My feeling is that Foretravel did not test for tire to bag clearance in all possible attitudes of the coach. bags should have been spaces a couple of inches further from the tire. Visulize the coach dropping a few inches lower and where the bag plate would hit the tire. Food for thought.

Bridgestone R213 Ecopia 295 r75 h load rating

Pierce

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #196 – July 21, 2021, 06:31:02 pm

With the coach in forward motion, the very front air bag plate would be polished as the tire is coming down but since the rearward bag would see the tire coming up instead of going down. the plate would dig into the tire. Possibly really hard.

Pierce

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #197 – July 22, 2021, 11:04:38 am

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – July 21, 2021, 06:31:02 pm

With the coach in forward motion, the very front air bag plate would be polished as the tire is coming down but since the rearward bag would see the tire coming up instead of going down. the plate would dig into the tire. Possibly really hard.

Pierce

The plates on the bottom are literally attached to the axle. They cannot change relationship position with the tire. During turns the tire sweeps closer but it's relationship never changes physically. Bags Inflated or flat has no effect on tire to lower bag mount, because they are the mounted together. The entire structure below the bags to axle is un sprung weight and all attacked rigidly together. For a tire to touch as this one has the entire structure supporting the axle was sprung. The upper mounts are on the chassis and the tire cannot get anywhere close to them ever. So at full opposing articulation this may induce a rotational stress on the entire lower unsprung axle assembly. We have established that this should never ever be allowed to happen. And with a tire a inch off the ground I can't imagine the stress. When I get to changing my front link bushings I will articulate fully , but unloaded and with one of the link bolts removed so as to measure the induced stress. I seriously doubt it will be incidental, till then I'm speculating, but have built other high articulation suspension systems to be aware of the induced stresses often overlooked. IMO
Scott

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #198 – July 22, 2021, 11:56:01 am

Scott,

You are absolutely correct in that the bottom plate will not move in relation to the tire, the top will but that won't effect the tire hitting. I just crawled under ours and there is no sign of any movement or wear in any of the bushings.

With the new tire, when I move the steering wheel, the tire has a few degrees where it will touch the plate.

So, one rabbit hole dead end. Good point Scott!

So, now is the question, why in some attitudes, does our tire hit the front right bottom bag plate? When normally turning the wheel, it clears fine. If the bushings don't allow any movement, why do some attitudes cause the interference? Can the front end twisting in Elliott's case, cause this condition?

Pierce

Re: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Reply #199 – July 22, 2021, 12:33:54 pm

Twist of the axle mounting, Frame etc. I would simply cut 1 in of the edge off of the plate .

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