Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading

Topic: Coach/suspension Damage From Torquing While Off-Roading (Read 10493 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #25 – April 10, 2021, 12:44:55 am

Radius rod if the axle is in front of the pivot point, trailing arm if it's behind.

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #26 – April 10, 2021, 09:06:38 am

If the articulated axle truck is damaged that can be removed fairly easily and repaired. If the main chassis framework is also damaged this will be more difficult to repair. This is a Foretravel OEM chassis, maybe call Foretravel for advice...they have probably seen this before.

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #27 – April 10, 2021, 09:58:11 am

So at your cost I have learned a valuable lesson. As these coaches were designed primarily to remain on relative flat surfaces and the ride height valves are continuously adjusting to compensate any abnormalities they are exposed to. This is counterproductive when on less that groomed surfaces that my coach is regularly exposed to. I will be installing a shut off switch to stop the travel height circuit when on less than groomed condition. This may only add a small amount of additional articulation, however it will stop the ride height circuit from attempting to correct and add endless amounts of excessive pressure to compensate to the chassis crisis induced by the operator. Front axle travel limit warning system seems like a no brainer for me also too. This would alert operator limits are at maximum

Basically you loaded the gun and the ride height circuit did its job and pulled the trigger. Still perplexed that you actually had a front tire off the ground. Hope all is resolved.
Scott

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #28 – April 10, 2021, 10:31:25 am

We take ours off road frequently driving to undeveloped campgrounds in the Sierras or down sandy canyons to the beach in Baja and mainland Mexico. We would have never bought the coach if we though it would be damaged by doing this and it never has been.

Pierce

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #29 – April 10, 2021, 11:03:23 am

I still don't understand what exactly caused the problem. Elliott's explanation doesn't make sense to me:

"I had to come over some twisty/uneven ground getting in and it was enough to trick the front ride height valve into dumping all the air. That then loaded a bunch of weight on the front drivers tire and brought the passenger side tire up off the ground by an inch."

Perhaps driving on the rough ground damaged the front ride height linkage or valve, resulting in it dumping air. OK, so the front suspension would drop down to the hard mechanical stops on both front corners.

If, at the same time, the front driver side tire was sitting on a high spot, and the front passenger side tire was in a hole, then the coach frame would be twisted as the rear ride height valves attempted to keep the rear axle at normal ride height on both corners. This could certainly result in a cracked windshield, as we all know.

What I don't understand is how the front suspension could be bent by this situation. If the front suspension is compressed down to the hard stops, then it is literally locked in proper alignment.

I also don't understand how dumping all the air out of the front air bags can raise a front wheel completely off the ground.

I guess I'm not understanding the whole picture. We need some photos showing what the coach looks like sitting in this condition.

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #30 – April 10, 2021, 11:12:39 am

Just armchair guessing here, but if the ground angle under the rear of the coach is different than the ground angle under the front of the coach and the tires are bottomed out on the front the rigidity of the frame might lift the low side of the front off the ground.

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #31 – April 10, 2021, 11:19:31 am

Quote from: dsd – April 10, 2021, 09:58:11 am

I will be installing a shut off switch to stop the travel height circuit when on less than groomed condition.
Scott

Wonder if turning on your HWH level system would/could act as the switch since it takes it out of travel mode?

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #32 – April 10, 2021, 11:23:59 am

Quote from: craneman – April 10, 2021, 11:12:39 am

Just armchair guessing here, but if the ground angle under the rear of the coach is different than the ground angle under the front of the coach and the tires are bottomed out on the front the rigidity of the frame might lift the low side of the front off the ground.

I think this is what happened. The right rear was really high and the front left was really high. The HWH basically shut off on me. All lights went dead. When I turned the coach off I wasn't able to turn it back on. I waited a few minutes and came back and tried again and it turned on and aired the front passenger airbag up enough to make contact with the ground and I was able to drive out of there at that point.

Sorry to keep giving you just tid bits, I'll try to get in front of a computer to give the full story

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #33 – April 10, 2021, 11:27:22 am

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – April 10, 2021, 11:03:23 am

If the front driver side tire was sitting on a high spot, and the front passenger side tire was in a hole, then the coach frame would be twisted as the rear ride height valves attempted to keep the rear axle at normal ride height. This could certainly result in a cracked windshield

whole picture

Yes I agree. Cracking windshields is a expensive indicator to the problem. Two airbags at full pressure can produce well over 20,000 lbs of force attempting to do what they are designed to do. By shutting this system OFF while on level flat ground prior to trail, this can be reduced induced stress by airbags doing what they are being told to do when active. My coach rear axle weight is 20k so this would possible be enough force to lift a front tire off the ground if it was out of level that far. I'm just speculating what I think was proven yesterday. The front axle is allowed to articulate freely till limits are reached with mechanical stops. By turning off travel circuit the front axle will still stop at mechanical stops but rear ride height valves won't continue to attempt to correct and multiply the present problem. Rear axle bags if uncommanded will actually absorb some of the problem without adding to it and adding more stress. Like crosswinds every one should know the actual limits to stay within
Scott

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #34 – April 11, 2021, 01:49:40 pm

Ok, two days and $6000 later we're back in Phoenix at my mother in law's. We were just getting ready to get back on the road after my wife beat cancer but the universe seems determined to keep me in this retirement community

The story starts sometime last week. We had been waiting for over a week for some folks to get financing to purchase our 5th wheel. We finally gave up on the whole deal and made a last minute decision (mistake #1) to go see some friends that were boondocking near Sedona. The group we were meeting had four Class A's and a class C together, which made me assume I could get in there too (mistake #2).

They were parked just off of FR525 and there was a twisty turn to get into the area they were at. It was like an S, that had one bank at the top of the S and one at the bottom. Nothing crazy, but it was a tight squeeze for a 40' coach. I got out and checked it out before hand I decided I was comfortable giving it a go. I let my buddy guide me through it (mistake #3) and right as we were trying to make that last turn in the S, I heard the ride height valve start hissing. At first I thought it was a tire so I just stopped and got out to take a look. At that point the front left tire was up on a bank and so was the back right tire. By the time I kind of figured out what was happening, the front left bags were completely compressed, sitting on the cones, and the front right bags were completely deflated and extended, with that tire just hanging in the air about an inch off the ground. I tried to raise the coach but the HWH panel was completely dead; no lights at all. I shut the coach off and tried to turn it back on but it wouldn't even crank. Five minutes later I tried again and it fired right up. The HWH panel decided to come back out to play too and I was able to air the front end up so both wheels were touching and drive out of the S.

Once we were out on relatively flat ground we noticed that my tires no longer cleared the bottom mounting plates for the airbags. The front left tire caught on the bag behind it and the front right tire caught on the bag in front of it. I could only turn left at this point and there wasn't much room to work with between the trees so I got to the most level spot I could and chalked the tires and decided I was done for the night and went and had a beer around the campfire. The next day is when I got in touch with you guys.

Fast forward to yesterday: I ended up paying a wrecker/salvage company to come get me out. We ended up cutting the airbag mounting plates down with a sawsall and grinder so that the tires would clear them. After about a million three-point turns I was able to turn the coach around and drive it back out of the S onto FR525. From there I drove the five miles back to the highway at 5mph (to the delight of MANY other campers behind me). Once we were on pavement we got it hooked up to the wrecker and headed back to Phoenix. He pulled both axles and capped the hubs at my request and then towed it to an RV collision center about a mile a way from the storage lot where we had our 5th wheel.

Amidst all of this chaos, the buyers for our 5th wheel FINALLY got back to us saying 'we can sign today!'. So, while I was dealing with the coach, my wife was dealing with our bank and the buyers. We managed to close the entire deal over the phone and meet the buyers at the storage lot, get them hooked up and on their way, and then meet the wrecker at the collision center right as he was arriving. We ended up selling the 5th wheel for more than we bought it new for, three years ago. What a whirlwind.

Now I guess we just wait. The shop is going to get the axles back in on Monday or Tuesday so they can move it and it'll probably be a week or more before they get it up on a lift to look at it. They just had an '04 U320 get suspension work done and our estimator said that it took weeks to get the parts they needed from FOT. That bill was $20k apparently so this should be interesting but I'm glad to know they've worked on other FTs before. There's another one in their lot right now too... it's a tag with FBP that I'll post a picture of incase it's anyone here.

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #35 – April 11, 2021, 02:13:41 pm

The tire looks about right in the well. The airbag base looks wrong .

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #36 – April 11, 2021, 02:20:01 pm

Elliott,

Looking at your picture of the "S" turn I would probably have decided to go for it as well. However, after your experience, I will be more circumspect and critical in the future in evaluating where I drive off pavement. Thank you for sharing your unfortunate experience, it will probably save several of us from the same fate.

Richard

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #37 – April 11, 2021, 02:22:07 pm

If you get a chance, how about posting photos of the bent parts? Not only close ups but some several feet away so we can see the location of the parts relative to everything else.

A super bummer. I can't believe these small turns did damage. We go through this stuff all the time. Just turning off our driveway to parking spots makes terrible sounds in the coach so I creep along hoping the windshields won't crack.

Pierce

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #38 – April 11, 2021, 02:55:11 pm

I agree that doesn't present as someplace I would hesitate to drive threw. I still strongly feel I will do so with the travel circuit disabled on level ground prior to entering to stop any additional travel height adjustments and a run away overloading condition.
Scott

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #39 – April 11, 2021, 03:17:56 pm

Quote

We go through this stuff all the time. Just turning off our driveway to parking spots makes terrible sounds in the coach

I'm with Pierce. I would have taken that road without a second thought. Getting out of my driveway is way worse than that. Anyhow, hoping for good news when they finally get a chance for a close examination of the suspension. Stay with it.
jor

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #40 – April 11, 2021, 03:46:05 pm

Sounds like you've been through the ringer lately. Here's to better times down the road!

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #41 – April 11, 2021, 03:55:44 pm

Looking at the picture I would have gone through also.

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #42 – April 11, 2021, 05:03:07 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – April 11, 2021, 02:22:07 pm

If you get a chance, how about posting photos of the bent parts? Not only close ups but some several feet away so we can see the location of the parts relative to everything else.

I'll try to snap some different photos next time I'm at the rig but honestly, there isn't much to see. The stuff that was bent was very subtle and I think it was really just an accumulation of small tweaks in a number of different places that led to a pretty sizable offset of the tires. I'll upload a couple photos from my phone here in a minute to give you an idea.

EDIT: The pics I do have aren't super useful to be honest

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #43 – April 11, 2021, 05:15:51 pm

Ah.......the old bent ruler trick.

He may know he's doing but I would dry-line it end to end, or use a longer straight edge.

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #44 – April 11, 2021, 05:19:59 pm

Good luck in your endever! I hope it's not as bad as the mechanic said it was.
It looks like I would go through that S turn in our 38 footer also, judging by the picture.

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #45 – April 11, 2021, 05:42:14 pm

Doesn't look any tougher than the twisty section entering the Quartzsite camp But I do creep through that very slow. I'm very paranoid of displasing that front window.

Having said that. Wish you well on all repairs and thanks much for sharing the experience with us. It's another caution to add to the book.

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #46 – April 11, 2021, 06:24:06 pm

Quote from: jor – April 11, 2021, 03:17:56 pm

I'm with Pierce. I would have taken that road without a second thought. Getting out of my driveway is way worse than that. Anyhow, hoping for good news when they finally get a chance for a close examination of the suspension. Stay with it.
jor

Drive ways are truly dangerous. After all this I'm scared
Scott

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #47 – April 11, 2021, 06:56:36 pm

Scott, looks good for not twisting but any high centering problem there?

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #48 – April 11, 2021, 07:27:37 pm

Elliot, I'm almost in tears reading this saga. I also don't think you did anything outrageous, a lot of us have been down similar roads, and experienced off camber escapades as well. Life is an adventure, and staying on the pavement is lame.

How's your insurance coverage? Hopefully it'll cover some or al of the repairs.

Bent suspension parts and broken windshields are not unusual with these buses. I met Francis in Nac last year when he was getting a bent rear trailing arm straightened at FOT, so it can be fixed. From the ruler pictures, the bend in that linkage doesn't look serious, and it looks like rock chips may have been the stressors to initiate both the windshield cracks? It doesn't take much...I've replaced 3 windshields in 2 years due to rock chips in the outer couple inches of the glass causing cracks that rapidly propagate.

These coaches are "rolling earthquakes". If the front fiberglas clip is not secure to the steel frame work in the dash, the whole front end is a noodle, and the windshields are along for the ride from whatever exerts the most force from below. Rance at Xtreme showed me how to test for flex, and said that the factory used Liquid Nails to adhere the fiberglas to the steel framework in this era coaches. Modern adhesives are superior, but that's the best FT had at the time I guess.

Mike had his 2003 at Q this December, and it crabbed almost a foot (rear swung right). Something was really wrong with that chassis/suspension. That might be the coach you saw in Phoenix shop.

Please keep us updated on the diagnosis and repair process. My prayers are with you buddy.

Re: Towing rig from front

Reply #49 – April 11, 2021, 09:24:55 pm

Quote from: Pyolet – April 11, 2021, 07:27:37 pm

How's your insurance coverage? Hopefully it'll cover some or al of the repairs.

If they cover it (which I think they will), it's basically a blank check for whatever estimate I get. They'll cut me a check and I'll deal directly with the repair shop. If it turns out there's more work to be done after that, there's a process for me to go through to get reimbursed for that too. I did this dance when we tore part of the roof off our 5th wheel and it was actually really smooth.

Unfortunately I'll be surprised if State Farm doesn't drop us after this. Between this, the 5th wheel, getting drugged by a bar tender and having a bunch of our stuff stolen, and the kitchen I nearly burned down, I will probably never be a money making proposition for them $:-\$

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