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Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #50
We long ago removed the bath GFCI outlet and replaced with a regular non-GFCI outlet. Too many problems made the change practical. We are aware of how GFCI outlets work, but RVs are a different animal and the GFCI downleg fed other outlets, that may have contributed to issues.

Upthread, dsd's issue is that prior to the Victron, he could plug into a household GFCI outlet with no issues, but with the Victron, the house's GCFI he's plugged into trips.  This is a residential outlet he's plugging into, not the GFCI outlet in the coach that's the problem.

Quote
plug the coach into a 20 110=v circuit that we never had issues with before and it trips the GFI as soon as the load control is set above one amp.  :headwall: So as a workarounds to that we went to a non GFI and it worked normally. In looking in the logic it grounds the neutral during DC battery inverter use. This explains the GFI issue. I personally really like what a GFI provides.
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

2000 U320 36' non-slide / WildEBeest Rescue
2003 U320

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #51
@dsd  How did you end up running that wire?  Did you try and run it in the floor cable run that goes from the foot of the bed to the closet space, or did you run it out of the back of the utility/tank bay / under the coach and up into the engine compartment?

Also has anyone relocated the mains/generator transfer switch from the foot of the bed (for those coaches that have it there) to another location?  I was thinking that if moved it would open up space in the floor cable run to allow room for those new 6/4 cables to/from the inverter as the existing 6/3 lines would no longer be in that space.
2000 / 36' / U320 / WTFE
WildEBeest / "Striving to put right what once went wrong"

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #52
I'm curious.
I installed my Victron 3000 multi 12v several years ago. All was fine until I had to move the coach to my street to allow construction on the house. I thought no big deal,I will use my 50 amp to 120v power cord to keep all the batteries charged for the few days I'm parked on the street. I used this cord numerous times when I still had the original Freedom inverter installed and never a problem.
I plugged the 120v cord in and immediately blew a breaker in the house. I then tried another outlet/circuit in the house and the same problem. I eventually gave up on the idea of using the 120v power cord.
I had a Mobile RV tech come and check my set-up to see if I did something wrong, he found no problems with my install. I put this issue on the "way back burner" to someday address.
Scott, does this sound like the same issue you have with your Victron, won't work with 120v power source cord plugged into the 50amp outlet with an adapter?

Here's a few thoughts for you.  I don't have a Victron, I still have the Xantrex Freedom SW3000 unit.  While boondocking, I wanted to be able to run off a 2000w inverter generator, mainly to bring the batteries back up without having to run the PowerTech.  I have a 50a to 110v adapter as well.  I did need to add a binding plug that binds the neutral and common to get it to work.  I also set the power share on the Xantrex to 10a as when the unit would first come on, it will surge 3-5 amps more than this setting.  At 15a, it would pop the overload on the generator, so 10a setting it was.  The next issue was that when the charger started charging, it was set for maximum output (150a DC).  I had to reduce the charger output % to 50% to keep it from trying to pull too much from the generator.  I assume the Victron also has a charger max charge % setting too.  You may need to reduce this to get it to work off 110v.
Keith
2003 U320 38' #6197

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #53
@dsd  How did you end up running that wire?  Did you try and run it in the floor cable run that goes from the foot of the bed to the closet space, or did you run it out of the back of the utility/tank bay / under the coach and up into the engine compartment?

Also has anyone relocated the mains/generator transfer switch from the foot of the bed (for those coaches that have it there) to another location?  I was thinking that if moved it would open up space in the floor cable run to allow room for those new 6/4 cables to/from the inverter as the existing 6/3 lines would no longer be in that space.
So I dropped out the passenger side of the bed area and headed forward with all the other cables into the downstairs compartment. I really like better separation of AC lines and fuel/oil lines but couldn't see a way to do it. Once back inside the lower compartment separated and secured to the ceiling inside. Also ran return power with it in 6-4 wire. It was a pain and then to have an internal fault really was a disappointment. It worked fine on external 240 volt ground power. I thought it was working normal on the twin legs of 115 volts of the generator but it was actually creating the L2 leg from the L1 leg causing it to overload.  This was with removing it from powering up the L2 leg. L2 is powered direct from the transfer switch bypassing the Victron. Then all the GFI issues and the single most desirable feature being able to reduce the load below the available duplex, was a difficult balancing act. 13 amp setting wouldn't work. 14 amp setting would work. 15 amp setting would trip the non GFI I ended up using. In wanting simple I now have a PITA. Great Idea in principle but will need more T/S. My goal is to reconnect the L2 leg threw the Victron.

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #54
Here's a few thoughts for you.  I don't have a Victron, I still have the Xantrex Freedom SW3000 unit.  While boondocking, I wanted to be able to run off a 2000w inverter generator, mainly to bring the batteries back up without having to run the PowerTech.  I have a 50a to 110v adapter as well.  I did need to add a binding plug that binds the neutral and common to get it to work.  I also set the power share on the Xantrex to 10a as when the unit would first come on, it will surge 3-5 amps more than this setting.  At 15a, it would pop the overload on the generator, so 10a setting it was.  The next issue was that when the charger started charging, it was set for maximum output (150a DC).  I had to reduce the charger output % to 50% to keep it from trying to pull too much from the generator.  I assume the Victron also has a charger max charge % setting too.  You may need to reduce this to get it to work off 110v.
Yes it must be set to the power available. This was the reason we got it. 50 amps set to 50, 30 amp set to 30 15 set to 15. Generator set to 50. I should be able to be on a 30 amp circuit and run both ACs being supplemented by the Victron for starts and any required additional power. It will get resolved

Also on 15 amp circuit you are able to reduce to maintain proper voltage.

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #55
I checked mine today and my multiplus gets both legs from the generator and powers both legs. Attached picture is from it running on the generator.
1991 U300 Side Aisle 6V92 Silver #3897
2004 U320 40' #6246

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #56
So to follow up I did install the 40 amp DC to DC charger to protect the coach alternator. I had checked every thing and thought it was working correct. Couple days before our departure date I double, triple checked that it was working correct. On ground power 220 volt working correct. On battery working correct. On generator I came across an issue. It was creating the L2 output by consuming L1 power. It was not passing power from the generator L2 to output of Inverter L2. Rechecked everything and put a service call into Victron. At this point I was wondering if I had programed the inverter wrong? Double checked programming and saw nothing about inverter input, although the manual shows the different internal switching for different configurations. Next day still no call back and we are getting close top a hard departure time. Being that the inverter will not manage the L2 leg I decided to do a work around by disconnecting the L2 output from the inverter and jumper int L2 from my surge protector back to the L2 in the circuit breaker panel. I would now manage L1 and saw no load for L2 because it was disconnected and worked okay. BUT I now was only using half of what I wanted and lost all the reasons to purchase and install this thing.

So I've been digging some into the 2x120 and came across this little tidbit:

MultiPlus II 2x120v with Generator - VictronEnergy

"Your Onan 5500 is only single phase output. Even when the generator is wired as "split phase" output, the phases are not 180 degrees out. The mp2 2x120 will see this as a single phase 120v input and will only pass thru L1 and the L1 and L2 outputs will be tied together. Even though you may have both L1 and L2 outputs connected from the generator, only L1 is being used. Basically your generator is cut in half in this configuration."

Granted this is a different generator, BUT I believe the PowerTech 10kW is essentially a single-phase output, split into L1 and L2, but the hots are in phase, not 180 degrees out (if as OEM by Foretravel).  This might be what's causing the problem - the Victron 2x120 sees L1 and L2 in phase, thinks you only have 1 true leg of power, and drops the L2 power input.

Further good discussion on the same subject here:

Multiplus II 2x120 generator compatibility. - VictronEnergy

I'm going to PM Justin Cook at Bay Marine to see if he can add anything to this discussion.
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

2000 U320 36' non-slide / WildEBeest Rescue
2003 U320

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #57
I checked mine today and my multiplus gets both legs from the generator and powers both legs. Attached picture is from it running on the generator.

Is your generator still wired as 2 legs of the same phase or has it been converted to 240V output?
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

2000 U320 36' non-slide / WildEBeest Rescue
2003 U320

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #58
Hi all, @Michelle is dead-on here: The MultiPlus-II 2x120 expects 2 legs of split-phase 120/240 input. If L2 input is not 180-degrees out-of-phase with L1 input, the MultiPlus will not pass-through the L2 input and will instead use L1 input only, and short L1 and L2 output together so that both sides of the panel are still powered with single-phase 120v.

Some generators will provide split-phase 120/240, while others -we don't work with generators, but I've heard this of many Onans and other generators- provide 2 independent circuits of in-phase 120, in which case the MultiPlus-II 2x120 will do what's being described.

This behavior is also covered in the user manuals, datasheets, product writeups (in most cases, though it depends on where you're looking I suppose), and shown in the power flow diagram printed right on the front of the unit as well!
Technical Support Manager and official poker of electronics at Laurel Technologies / Bay Marine Supply. Distribution and expert support of Victron Energy, Sterling Power, Blue Sea, Bussman, and Battle Born products.

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #59
Thanks for the information Justin.  Nice to see an actual expert in the field sharing the hows and whys.  That said, looking at Victrons' info is somewhat confusing.  I have a Xantrex Freedom SW3000 now, and would like to eventually replace it with a Victron unit. I've labored over the descriptions, trying to determine which option offers as much capability and functionality as possible, without have to reinvent the wheel like DSD did (running new Romex, etc).  I want a replacement solution.  I have kind of come to the conclusion that will be the original Multiplus, not a Multiplus II.
Keith
2003 U320 38' #6197

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #60
I think RV with Tito covers this in his video (do we have to much power), about 12 min into the video
1999 36 ft U270
Build 5465

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #61
Thanks for the information Justin.  Nice to see an actual expert in the field sharing the hows and whys.  That said, looking at Victrons' info is somewhat confusing. 

Agreed (on both counts).  We've been looking at the Victron options for a couple of weeks now, and hadn't come across that explicit statement/info on how the 2x120 would handle generator input.  I was digging into it more because the original owner of our coach had PowerTech rewire the genset to 240V operation, and I was trying to figure out if the 2x120 would interpret that as 50 amp shore power and then how it might do hybrid mode on that.  That's when I uncovered the single-phase discussions I linked above.  I hadn't previously seen anything that indicated the 2x120 might not be a good option for a 50 amp coach with a generator wired like most of the Foretravels represented here. 

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I have a Xantrex Freedom SW3000 now, and would like to eventually replace it with a Victron unit. I've labored over the descriptions, trying to determine which option offers as much capability and functionality as possible, without have to reinvent the wheel like DSD did (running new Romex, etc).  I want a replacement solution.  I have kind of come to the conclusion that will be the original Multiplus, not a Multiplus II.

Keith, from my reading the main differences between the original Multiplus and Multiplus 2 3000 120 models (not the 2x120 version of the MP2) is form factor (allegedly for lower cost shipping) and "reduced production cost design" for the MP2.  The form factor difference is significant - I made cardboard cutouts of 2 models (as well as the MPPT, Lynx, and Cerbo GX) marked with cable attachment locations to help us evaluate the space requirements for both.
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

2000 U320 36' non-slide / WildEBeest Rescue
2003 U320

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #62
Keith, from my reading the main differences between the original Multiplus and Multiplus 2 3000 120 models (not the 2x120 version of the MP2) is form factor (allegedly for lower cost shipping) and "reduced production cost design" for the MP2.  The form factor difference is significant - I made cardboard cutouts of 2 models (as well as the MPPT, Lynx, and Cerbo GX) marked with cable attachment locations to help us evaluate the space requirements for both.
Form factor is one of the things that Scott said was an issue with the MP2.  The original Multiplus looks much more "square" like the Xantrex I have now.  I've already got a Cerbo GX and MPPT installed.
Keith
2003 U320 38' #6197

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #63
Form factor is one of the things that Scott said was an issue with the MP2.  The original Multiplus looks much more "square" like the Xantrex I have now.  I've already got a Cerbo GX and MPPT installed.

Yes, the original is probably close to the Xantrex 3000 you have.  It's about 2" thicker than the OEM Prosine 2.5 (insert T-Rex arms here) our coach has.  The MP2 is similar in thickness to the 2500, but is a couple of inches longer.
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

2000 U320 36' non-slide / WildEBeest Rescue
2003 U320

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #64
For what it's worth, the MultiPlus-II is 5-1/2" deep, 11" wide, but effectively 23" tall, while the original MultiPlus is 8-3/4" deep, 10-1/4" wide, and only 14-1/2" tall (all a bit rough, but close enough). They occupy very similar total cubic space just differently laid-out, and the actual day to day performance of the MultiPlus-II 1x120 and the original MultiPlus is effectively identical, so in a lot of cases it's just a matter of what will work best for your particular space.

Personally I generally prefer the MultiPlus-II, as it has more flexibility in mounting since it only has one large toroidal transformer mounted to the rear of the case which allows you to mount it upright, on its back, or on its side (ie, horizontally on a vertical surface like a wall) while the old MultiPlus has two large toroidal transformers -one on each side of the case- so mounting is limited to either upright or on its back. I also find the AC-In and AC-Out connector blocks better on the MultiPlus-II; they're a pain to deal with the first time around, but they hold up to vibration and heat cycling over time better than the original MultiPlus connections without being regularly checked on, which is beneficial because -though of course anyone in a mobile environment should be regularly checking their connections- we all know that sort of thing is easy to forget. And, finally, the MultiPlus-II connection points for initial install are, to some, less daunting since you only need to pull off a little black panel at the bottom to access them, whereas on the original MultiPlus you're pulling off the front faceplate which, while very easy, does expose the entire front Control PCBA and first level of power control components to view, which if you're not comfortable with electronics innards, can be scary.

...but on the other hand, the original MultiPlus is what I cut my teeth on, years ago, so it still holds a bit of a special place in my heart!
Technical Support Manager and official poker of electronics at Laurel Technologies / Bay Marine Supply. Distribution and expert support of Victron Energy, Sterling Power, Blue Sea, Bussman, and Battle Born products.

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #65
Scott I have installed a Victron Multiplus II 2x 120 in my coach. Along with solar, cerbo gx etc, etc. finished installing in May, then we left in June for 3 months. We boondocked for 2 months in Colorado. We didn't have any issues with the system. After reading this thread, I started wondering about whether I would have problems plugging into our 20 amp gfci plug. So today I parked near the garage and plugged into the gfci. I have set the input to 17 amps. I turned on both air conditioners and have a residential fridge running. I have been running  this for about 2 hours with no problems. I do have about 1000 watts of solar coming in. I think you have a problem with your Multiplus, or possibly it is wired different than mine. I hesitate to suggest that because I know how capable you are. Also you are correct about the one leg being recognized from your generator. I was told if it causes me any problems I could add a transformer. I paid for a wiring diagram and had to figure out how to integrate that with the Foretravel wiring. Mike Rash helped me figure it out, and was a great help to me. I have been very happy with my setup,and I am starting to forget how many hours, and frustration I have in it.    Tom
Tom and Michelle 2004 U270 36WTFS

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #66
I paid for a wiring diagram and had to figure out how to integrate that with the Foretravel wiring.

Victron wiring diagram or Foretravel wiring diagram?  Thinking we may want to have this diagram as well.
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

2000 U320 36' non-slide / WildEBeest Rescue
2003 U320

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #67
I don't have a problem sharing what  I have done.  The I plan I paid for was the solar, lithium batteries the Multiplus II 2 x 120, cerbo gx, lynx distributor, touch 50 display, Orion dc/dc charger and the solar charge controllers. He sized the wires and helped me pick the charge controllers I needed. He was available to answer questions as they came up. He also remoted in to my system after I installed it to help me program all the settings. I think I paid him $380.  His name is Dan Heming. He has a web site rvsolarconsulting.com. He was good to work with, and I  feel like I got my money's worth from his service.  Elliott used him. I got his info from his solar thread. What he did not provide was exactly how to connect to my Foretravel wiring. As it is quite different than your average fifth wheel. So I got my A2700 wiring diagram studied it,had questions about it. Talked to Mike Rash he helped me figure out what I needed. (Thanks Mike) these are the before and after of my A2700 drawing. Also the solar diagram I got from Dan.  Sorry if I hijacked Scott's thread moderators feel free to split this off if needed.
Tom and Michelle 2004 U270 36WTFS

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #68
Thank you very much for sharing your schematics.

One question I have is on the cables, you list a 6/3g from/to the inverter.  Is that SOOW cable you ran (basically 6/4) or did you run Romex (6/3 w/G).  Also any insights on how you ran that cable?  Did you leave the old 12/2 and 10/2 OEM Romex lines in place?
2000 / 36' / U320 / WTFE
WildEBeest / "Striving to put right what once went wrong"

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #69
Thank you very much for sharing your schematics.

One question I have is on the cables, you list a 6/3g from/to the inverter.  Is that SOOW cable you ran (basically 6/4) or did you run Romex (6/3 w/G).  Also any insights on how you ran that cable?  Did you leave the old 12/2 and 10/2 OEM Romex lines in place?


Foretravel when building my coach used 6/3 SO to each inverter. 

Wire to slides from coach to slide was SO Cable. They used romex every where else.
2014 ih45  (4th Foretravel owned)
 1997 36' U295 Sold in 2020, owned for 19 years
  U240 36' Sold to insurance company after melting in garage fire
    33' Foretravel on Dodge Chassis  Sold very long time ago

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #70
Not sure about anyone else's coach floorplan but on mine the inverter in the basement is quite a long distance from the electrical panel at the foot of the bed.  Running cable there and back would be quite a chore.  I believe that Scott (DSD) did this recently on his 36' coach.  That being said, I loathe 6 gauge copper non metallic cable (6-3 NM or 6-4 NM) having run quite a bit for electric ranges and RV shore power circuits.  I would much rather work with 6 gauge SO cable which is significantly more flexible (and better suited for an RV application in my opinion).  The difference between SOOW and SJOW is the voltage rating, SO being rated at 600 volts and SJ at 300 volts.  The other difference is that SJ is much smaller in diameter and so that would be my choice since in this application since we're no where near 300 volts.  One other consideration is that both SJOW and SOOW are rated for exposure where NM (non-metallic) cable is not and must be in a protected location.  One last point is that SJOW and SOOW are both rubber jacketed where SJTW is thermoplastic and therefore less desirable in my opinion.
George Mann
2002 U320 #5934
2017 Rubicon
2013 BMW GS
Waterford MI

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #71
Yes I used 6/4 SOOW wire. I left the old wires in place, just not connected to any thing ( never know might use for something one day). As far as the route for the 6/4 wire, to the front of the bed went from inverter over to the main wire/ hose etc chase through that to where it exits the back bulkhead. Then I put some wire loom around the cable, and wire tied it out of danger. Over the transmission and then up through a hole I drilled through the floor into the compartment under the bed. Where the breaker boxes are, sealed the hole with caulking.  My transfer switch for shore power and generator power is near my inverter. So I only had to run 1 6/4 SOOW wire to the back. I removed the other transfer switch that chooses shore power or inverter power as my Multiplus 2 2x120 takes care of that job.  I thought running the wire from the inverter to the bed was going to be way harder than it was. I used fiberglass wire fishing rods  to push through to the back. I then attached the wire to the pole I pulled from the back, Michelle pushed from the front turned out to not be that bad. ( I took the ceiling down in the big bay and pushed from there).  Steve it sounds like you are considering this project. I will try to answer questions if I can. I'm no expert but I am smarter than I was. Tom
Tom and Michelle 2004 U270 36WTFS

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #72
I would much rather work with 6 gauge SO cable which is significantly more flexible (and better suited for an RV application in my opinion).  The difference between SOOW and SJOW is the voltage rating, SO being rated at 600 volts and SJ at 300 volts.  The other difference is that SJ is much smaller in diameter and so that would be my choice since in this application since we're no where near 300 volts. 

Looking around online, SJOW availability seems to stop at 10/4; I haven't found any 6/4.  6/4 SOOW appears to be very common.

Yes I used 6/4 SOOW wire.

I used fiberglass wire fishing rods  to push through to the back. I then attached the wire to the pole I pulled from the back, Michelle pushed from the front turned out to not be that bad.

Yes - another gal who helps work on the coach  ^.^d
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

2000 U320 36' non-slide / WildEBeest Rescue
2003 U320

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #73
How about using expandible vinyl sleeving. Sure makes pulling any kind of wire/cable/fuel hose easy over long distances. ALL SIZES & COLORS 5 FT - 100 FT. Expandable Cable Sleeving Braided Tubing... We used the fire resistive type in aircraft wiring.

When I worked for cable TV out of high school, I watched the installers made use a wax cartridge with dental floss type thread inside and then blow the caratridge from one floor to the one above through electrical conduit. Sure would make running a cable front to back of the coach and then easy to attache to one end of the electrical cable.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: House batteries and charger

Reply #74
I like the look of the expandable sleeve. Can you explain how it makes it easier to pull wire?  I am all about easier.  Tom
Tom and Michelle 2004 U270 36WTFS